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Thread: April is the Cruelest Month

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I understand that Finland has elected not to proceed with their pilot Universal Income scheme, something about not being able to afford it even with their average personal tax rate of just over 50%, which makes me wonder if the former would not be necessary without the latter.
    no you are simply misinformed:
    https://metropolitan.fi/entry/false-...c-income-trial
    http://www.kela.fi/web/en/news-archi...he-end-of-2018

    I don't think it was ever intended to last indefinitely but just was a pilot.

    As for the rest, there aren't many countries that couldn't in some sense benefit from a basic income at least in some ways, only countries with actual full employment as well as no serious poverty wouldn't and those are few indeed. Basic income is experimental for sure, hard to say how it would work on a society wide basis, lots of unknowns, but it isn't abandoned because it has failed or anything, that's simply not true. It has usually had some positive effects where it is tried but it's usually a limited trial. It isn't something proven time after time to work well like single payer healthcare or something, it's still in beta.
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  2. #52
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I understand that Finland has elected not to proceed with their pilot Universal Income scheme
    Quote Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore View Post
    no you are simply misinformed:
    I suppose I stand corrected, I should have said "Finland has elected not to proceed past the end of the year, with no plans to continue beyond that point."
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  3. #53
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    What about the people that save and do everything right and yet even with insurance get wiped out by medical bills? I have posted about my friends before. She had 8 bouts of cancer and him 4. SS was all they had by the last few years when he was too sick to work . She reached that point years before due to having no memory because of all the chemo and then Alzheimers. So should people like this just starve once they lower SS? Quit assuming all that wind up penniless never saved for retirement.

  4. #54
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Two of my four brothers, my brother in law, my wife's aunt and all her children (just to name a few of my extended family) think that way. But to be fair, I never considered the possibility they may not be real people. that would actually explain a lot.
    So maybe you are biased in your thinking.

    I agree that perhaps fairly minor adjustments can be made to SS to make it more solvent. I agree that some people are greedy and feel entitled to whatever they can get, but IMHO greed is not the confined to the lower and middle classes--quite the contrary.

    I disagree that social programs foster a culture of dependence on the government. Yet, I'll go so far as to agree with you that some people do become dependent on the government because of the safety nets.

    In a perfect world, people would care about each other--children would take responsibility for their parents; parents would take responsibility for their adult children; neighbors would look out for each other. But they don't. So what do you do with the people who are too sick to care for themselves?

    There was an answer in my great-grandfather's day. He was sent to, and died, in an asylum (Willard Asylum in upstate NY) where all those people who simply couldn't get along in this culture were dumped. The people who couldn't make ends meet because of mental, emotional or physical deficiencies. Maybe we should return to "adult orphanages." These were cruel places where people died and were buried in unmarked graves. Do poor people deserve less dignity than the guy who steals money from his shareholders? Do they deserve less dignity than the business owner who squeezes out every last drop of blood from his workers? Was my great-grandfather "evil"?

    I'm willing to live with the fact that some people are always going to take advantage. I would rather live with that reality if I can ensure that people who really need public services get them.
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  5. #55
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teacher Terry View Post
    So should people like this just starve once they lower SS? Quit assuming all that wind up penniless never saved for retirement.
    You guys keep accusing me of things that exist solely in your minds. When I say that some people choose to not plan ahead due to their belief in a government safety net does not equate to my assuming that every penniless pensioner was too lazy to save. When I say that common sense reforms to the myriad social welfare systems in place in hopes of keeping them solvent would be a good thing should not be taken as a belief that people should just starve, and yet, here we are.

    If I didn't know better I'd think some of you took that Democratic Party produced video of Paul Ryan throwing Grandma off the cliff in her wheelchair as gospel, or maybe you did.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    You guys keep accusing me of things that exist solely in your minds. When I say that some people choose to not plan ahead due to their belief in a government safety net does not equate to my assuming that every penniless pensioner was too lazy to save. When I say that common sense reforms to the myriad social welfare systems in place in hopes of keeping them solvent would be a good thing should not be taken as a belief that people should just starve, and yet, here we are.

    If I didn't know better I'd think some of you took that Democratic Party produced video of Paul Ryan throwing Grandma off the cliff in her wheelchair as gospel, or maybe you did.
    They seem to be making assumptions about your assumptions.

    At what point, after machine-gunning the poor were you planning on releasing the vultures?

  7. #57
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    Alan, I am sure you are a nice person in real life but that doesn't always come across. I think we should cut $ from other parts of the budgets and leave the social programs alone. Cut defense, don't spend $ on a wall, etc.. Many wasteful areas to cut without cutting programs for the seniors. Ldahl: you made me laugh outloud which is a good thing

  8. #58
    Senior Member flowerseverywhere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    This is also the reason I could never be a liberal, an ideology which these days promotes dependence on others as a moral imperative, which I think is evil.
    and speaking of putting words in others mouths, are are you sure every liberal wants to promote dependence on the government? Because I think that is untrue. Most do not want to take law abiding citizens guns away. Most do not want to throw the borders wide open. Many do not agree with sanctuary cities. And so on. It works both ways.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere View Post
    and speaking of putting words in others mouths, are are you sure every liberal wants to promote dependence on the government? Because I think that is untrue.
    Of course it's untrue, but odds are....
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  10. #60
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teacher Terry View Post
    Alan, I am sure you are a nice person in real life ....
    Yes I am, but my most impressive traits are being lovable, cuddly and shy.
    ....but that doesn't always come across.
    I'm like a songwriter who can't sing, you can love me for my words and hate me for my presentation or vice versa, but in the end, it's your choice.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

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