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Thread: Pope Francis Should Resign

  1. #11
    Williamsmith
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    To absolve Francis simply because conservatives would count it a blessing and cheer if he resigned.....is to start off with a bias that could sidetrack clear investigation and punishment of participants. Whatever fondness you have for his liberal applications has to be shelved in respect of victims. He deserves scrutiny as if the alt right did not exist.

  2. #12
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    If he resigned, what would the pool be? Are there bishops who have not been around during any of these events/scandals? Who have not had to deal with things such as forgiveness/absolution/sanctity of the confessional, etc?

  3. #13
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Williamsmith View Post
    To absolve Francis simply because conservatives would count it a blessing and cheer if he resigned.....is to start off with a bias that could sidetrack clear investigation and punishment of participants. Whatever fondness you have for his liberal applications has to be shelved in respect of victims. He deserves scrutiny as if the alt right did not exist.
    I'm saying that maybe he doesn't need to be "absolved." I think the article suggested that he may have been framed for complicity where it may/may not exist. But yes, of course his actions need to be scrutinized. The actions of the offending clergy are heinous, and proper leadership is in order, for sure. I admit to a strong emotional connection to the Catholic Church even though I'm not even Catholic anymore, so your charges of bias may apply. But like any institution, it is vulnerable to corruption and an instinct toward self-preservation. I hope they can rise to the occasion and do what's right.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member SteveinMN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Williamsmith View Post
    To absolve Francis simply because conservatives would count it a blessing and cheer if he resigned.....is to start off with a bias that could sidetrack clear investigation and punishment of participants. Whatever fondness you have for his liberal applications has to be shelved in respect of victims. He deserves scrutiny as if the alt right did not exist.
    I'm not Catholic; never have been. I have many friends who are; most of them are fairly liberal about the religion. Even more of them essentially are lapsed.

    I see, in the calls for Francis' resignation, the same lack of nuance the #MeToo movement exhibits. Don't get me wrong; MeToo serves a very valuable function in illustrating the scope of sexual harrassment in our society. But I think there may be a lack of perspective in treating people like Al Franken (his poor judgment documented some time ago but, on balance, a political career spent positively addressing women's issues) as harshly as serial harrasser and rapist Harvey Weinstein.

    In the same vein, Francis has done a lot of good for the Catholic Church. While I believe his current "won't-speak-a-word" stance needs to be challenged and his (alleged) participation in coverups years ago examined (and, if necessary, censured), I don't believe ousting him will replace him with someone as relatively enlightened as he is now. My experience is that organizations tend toward self-protection. Francis is nowhere near as protective of the organization as his predecessors. I would not like to see his good work put asunder by behavior of the past in which he would not engage now.
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  5. #15
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    Speaking as a Catholic, I think Francis might do a better job at dealing with these issues than many of the men who might replace him if he resigns.

    What we need is someone who can admit the wrongdoing, clear out those complicit with the cover-ups, and start the Church out on a fresh path.

    The Catholic Church has weathered popes who poisoned their rivals, the selling of salvation to gain money for the Church, and many other scandals. I think it will weather this, but only if the issue is really dealt with. You'd think they would have learned after the last big incident, with all the priests in Boston.

    Although I'm not sure about married priests. They would not be able to use birth control, so most of them would have several kids. The average parish priest is not paid very much--their stipends wouldn't cover new sneakers for the kids, let alone college or vacations or bicycles. And the wife wouldn't be able to work much out of the home, because of being pregnant all the time. I'm not sure the Church can afford married priests.

    (Just a sidenote. The Church does have some married priests--Anglican or Episcopalian priests who are married and then convert to Roman Catholicism can remain married. So there is precedent.)

  6. #16
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Cellaneous View Post
    Speaking as a Catholic, I think Francis might do a better job at dealing with these issues than many of the men who might replace him if he resigns.

    What we need is someone who can admit the wrongdoing, clear out those complicit with the cover-ups, and start the Church out on a fresh path.

    The Catholic Church has weathered popes who poisoned their rivals, the selling of salvation to gain money for the Church, and many other scandals. I think it will weather this, but only if the issue is really dealt with. You'd think they would have learned after the last big incident, with all the priests in Boston.

    Although I'm not sure about married priests. They would not be able to use birth control, so most of them would have several kids. The average parish priest is not paid very much--their stipends wouldn't cover new sneakers for the kids, let alone college or vacations or bicycles. And the wife wouldn't be able to work much out of the home, because of being pregnant all the time. I'm not sure the Church can afford married priests.
    I agree with you about the practicality of married priests, but the conundrum is that sex is a primary biological drive, no matter what your religion is. And I'm speaking as a person as far from being a sexual free spirit as I can be. (I was one of those mothers who evaded "the talk" with my kids as long as I could. And even when I got to it, I was a total failure.)

    The Church has to address that reality. So maybe they develop the lay community--deacons for example--to support priests. But I still don't see how asking a huge swath of men or women to live celibate lives is sustainable, without being a tinder box for sexual abuse.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Ultralight's Avatar
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    Law enforcement should raid the Vatican. Smoke'em out of their holes, to use a metaphor.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Ultralight's Avatar
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    When I was a kid I got the gut feeling that priests were usually creeps. I avoided them and at my mom's suggestion that I become an altar boy I was like: "Hell, no!"

  9. #19
    Senior Member razz's Avatar
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    Priests are not all 'creeps'. Lawyers are not all 'thieves'. Police are not all 'murderers'. Politicians are not all 'losers'.The hyperbole demonstrates foolishness bordering on stupidity.
    Guess it is time for me to take a break from the SLF. See ya in a while!
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  10. #20
    Senior Member Ultralight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razz View Post
    Priests are not all 'creeps'. Lawyers are not all 'thieves'. Police are not all 'murderers'. Politicians are not all 'losers'.The hyperbole demonstrates foolishness bordering on stupidity.
    Guess it is time for me to take a break from the SLF. See ya in a while!
    Let me quote myself: "When I was a kid I got the gut feeling that priests were usually creeps."


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