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Thread: Kavanaugh Supreme Court Nomination

  1. #391
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar View Post
    One commentator suggested that if Ford had adopted the same combative tone it would have hurt her testimony. The point being that the female role is expected to be submissive, but it's acceptable for the male role to be angry and combative. I saw some truth to that.
    That's discounting the different roles the participants were playing. She was in the victim role, complete with a ceaseless outpouring of sympathy from the Democrats and a consistently respectful request for facts from the Republican proxy. On the other hand, his role was defined by the Democrats line of questioning and oratory portraying him as a spoiled, alcoholic frat boy, guilty of crimes against an entire gender.

    If their roles had been reversed I have no doubt the optics would have been the same and commentators would have found it unremarkable.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  2. #392
    Senior Member gimmethesimplelife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teacher Terry View Post
    K has been caught lying so much but some people frankly donít care.
    My question is this: If K is indeed innocent of that of which he is accused, why the refusal to take a lie detector test? This isn't helping him one iota and makes him look guilty and like an entitled male of white privilege. A very easy accusation for someone of my economic background to make, true, but if the shoe fits......he's certainly acting the part. And it's not an attractive or trustworthy look. Rob

  3. #393
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    He thinks that the rules don’t apply to him because frankly they haven’t for his entire life. But our country picked a liar for a president so I guess why not a supreme. Men like those 2 can and do get away with anything. I am so disgusted.

  4. #394
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife View Post
    My question is this: If K is indeed innocent of that of which he is accused, why the refusal to take a lie detector test?
    Polygraph results are often subjective and always inadmissible in legal proceedings. While they can be useful as an investigatory tool, they are not a good indicator of guilt or innocence. In an example such as this, where guilt or innocence is secondary to the oppositions goals, there is no value in subjecting yourself to one.

    If he did, and the result showed possible untruthfulness, he would be pilloried as guilty. If the result showed possible truthfulness he would be pilloried as an accomplished liar. If I were him, I'd want the real evidence to take the investigation where it will.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  5. #395
    Senior Member Rogar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    If their roles had been reversed I have no doubt the optics would have been the same and commentators would have found it unremarkable.
    Quite possible, although both may be victims by some accounts. K being the victim of "high tech lynching". I did find the theory interesting.

    I have taken a lie detector test before as a condition of employment when the procedure was still admissible. My impression was that it might be accurate for a typical person with good conscious and a sense of right and wrong. There are people who do not fall into that category. They may either feel guilty of doing something that might be right and truthful or alternately not feel guilty about half or full truths that are wrong, either of which could cause false results. I perspired profusely, but seemed to pass the criteria that was the intention of the test. My test was in a small bare and warm room with a hard chair and the tester wore a plain white shirt with a skinny black tie and horn rimmed glasses reminiscent of an FBI agent. It's no wonder they are not considered accurate in all cases.

  6. #396
    Senior Member Williamsmith's Avatar
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    In my jurisdiction, it is highly unusual for a victim to submit to a polygraph examination. For an investigator to request this of a victim, shows a lack of confidence and definitely undermines the trust that a victim places in the investigator. It takes a lot of courage for a victim to speak about their assault. It is a reliving of the event which in essence victimizes them each time they relate the details. So for Dr. ford to have submitted to the polygraph and to have shown no signs of deception....this lends immense credibility to her statement. For her to sit in committee on a national stage under immense pressure and relate the details in such a convincing fashion shows to me.....based on my training and experience that the event happened and she was being truthful.

    Those who who are accused of such crimes, are routinely asked to submit to a polygraph examination. In explaining the benefits of doing so, I have counseled many that if they are truly innocent to without hesitation take the polygraph and if they are guilty ...... don’t even think about it.

    I have an acquaintance and two personal friends who are polygraph operators in demand. Two are retired, one full time. All three have demonstrated to me the accuracy of the polygraphs ability to tell a truth from a lie but the usefulness depends on the construction of the critical questions and the preparation leading up to the few determinant questions. Each of these polygraph operators have examined murderers, rapists, child molesters and candidates for state employment. There is no doubt of the usefulness of these tests. They often result in statements against interest or outright confessions and that is why Attorneys always advise clients not to take the test unless they are absolutely convinced by corroborating proof of the innocence of their client. And then it makes all the sense in the world.

    The subjectiveness of a polygraph is mitigated by excellent operators. Kavanaugh is being out manuerved by Ford and he doesn’t like it. His response of habit is anger, outrage and pompous rebuke which is a result of his insecurity. Has he been through hell? No doubt. To whom much is given, much is required.

  7. #397
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    WS, thanks for your professional opinion. It means a lot considering your experience.

  8. #398
    Senior Member Rogar's Avatar
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    That's pretty interesting, WS. By your experience, do you think it is possible in a case where there is a traumatized victim and an inebriated perpetrator, that over a period of years one, the other, or both may have actually created a reality they believe (100%) that is different than the actual event?

    I listened to most of the testimonies and could see where each presented a situation where both could be certain of their statements. I have picked the person I think represented the more credible account based on their demeanor and presentation, but for me it was not obvious. The Wash Post and NYT, who usually side with liberals, had an initial take similar to mine and were somewhat neutral, although they now seem to be developing arguments favoring Ford. Ironically I find it discouraging in such an important appointment, where without further witnesses or evidence, the vast majority of one party believes one and the majority of the other believes the other, when the testimonies are hardly clear cut.

    I think there is enough evidence to cast sincere doubts on K and they should just move on to the next candidate. It's not like a court of law where there guilt has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

  9. #399
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    Yes they need to move on.

  10. #400
    Senior Member Williamsmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teacher Terry View Post
    Yes they need to move on.
    Theres no way for the Republicans to move on without adding momentum to the #metoo movement. They’ve already come off as flipping the middle finger to women. If they confirm Kavanaugh there will probably be Vietnam type protests in D.C. The midterms will definitely be sketchy for them. It’s hard to believe that there are four members of the Mormon Church on the committee and still after that testimony they voted for recommending Kavanaugh for a full senate vote. There’s no reason to be talking about criminal court standards. It is a job placement decision of great importance to the country. Kavanaughs response shows the kind of Supreme Court Judge he would be....partisan, holding grudges, obstinent and boldly emotional. The republicans don’t have it in them to repair their relationship with a good portion of the country. They’ve pretty much shown their cards. The Democrats will make hay while the sun shines and the sun will shine good and hard in the next week.

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