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Thread: Marriage as Bedrock of Soceity?

  1. #91
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catherine View Post
    Love this response. I feel the same way.
    Just to expand briefly:

    I once asked my husband if he thought of himself more of an American or a Christian. He said "American." I, OTOH, identify more as a Christian, not in a dogmatic way (I'm not actually a member of a church and I also try to adhere to aspects of Buddhism and Hinduism). But while I am certainly American (and have been for many generations, predating the American Revolution) I would be more likely to adhere to principles of Christianity than the Constitution if there were ever a conflict. And sometimes I think there is.
    "Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it--every, every minute?" Emily Webb, Our Town
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveinMN View Post
    Just call me a fan of facts and not memes that purport that undocumented people are scamming the entire country and making the U.S. "less great".

    There's nothing wrong with pointing out that several million people in this country are not legal citizens. But however they got here and however they stay here, they exist. In fact, undocumented workers are pillars of several industries in the U.S. (including, despite his ignorance of it, Trump's hospitality and development businesses). The fantasy that 10-11 million people (and their U.S. citizen children) can be pushed out of this country so their jobs can be filled by white people (who somehow will want to work for peanuts in crappy conditions) is a white wet dream. "Getting rid of the illegals" who already are here is a talking point and no more.

    There's nothing wrong with pointing out that many undocumented residents end up hitting the safety net at some point or another -- but so do a lot of citizens. I'm guessing the vast majority of those who erroneously think undocumented residents are soaking up tax dollars have no idea how much of emergency-fund money goes to people who are here illegally and people who are here legally -- or that longer-term money doesn't happen.

    There's nothing wrong with pointing out insecure areas of the country's border except when the ostensible national security argument really turns out to be a racial argument (we've got a few thousand miles of border with Canada; Trump isn't threatening to shut down the government for money for a wall to be built there). It's "hardening our borders" when we deal with the Canadian border, ports on both coasts (and the Gulf), and the joke that is the TSA; until then, it's xenophobia masked as "national security".

    There is something wrong with a government apparatus that cannot distinguish U.S. law from its own rampant fear of non-whites. Don't like the law that allows people from other countries to come to the U.S. to seek asylum? Try to change that rather than blacken America's eye by tearing toddlers away from their parents at the border with some phony claim about security.

    There is something wrong in insinuating that all our problems are solved if we just get rid of the "illegals". In 20 years Trump voters are going to be surprised to find the country is minority-white and that we're going to have to find a supply of new workers because white USians aren't having babies like they used to and nobody wants to give up their farm subsidies and disaster relief and Social Security because there aren't enough workers to pay for the taxes that fund those programs.

    We need better ways to allow people to immigrate to this country. We need to quit funding the civil wars abroad that create refugees. We need to regain some compassion about our fellow residents rather than side with corporations who don't give a damn about people of any color. Immigration built this country and made it great long before some lumpy combover (whose own grandparents and whose wife's parents came from somewhere else and took advantage of the existing immigration laws) declared America wasn't great.

    Get the facts right and try to be even-handed about what's going on and the discussion becomes very different.
    Without commenting on the fact-to-feeling ratio of this post, couldn’t we address many of these issues within a legal context that includes secure borders?

    Not everybody who would like to see that is an ignorant racist with a bad haircut. Do the facts we are supposed to get right need to include a lot of name-calling and impugning of motives and coiffures?
    Last edited by LDAHL; 9-12-18 at 3:47pm.

  3. #93
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    Everyone on earth is born with worth just by virtue of being human and it's hard to argue with that from a moral basis. However you can't necessarily actually run a government that way, short of global government and that's just a pipe dream for now.

    Even Sweden is moving to the right as a backlash against refugees (though the largest group is the social democrats). Now the U.S. does not compare to Europe in scale of issues with immigrants/migrants/refugees and they were especially welcoming. And I think the voters in Sweden must be acting pretty foolish these days, as voting for the right, regardless of one's position on immigration issues, always causes more than it's own share of troubles.
    If you want something to get done, ask a busy person. If you want them to have a nervous breakdown that is.

  4. #94
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    I am a citizen of the world. We do not need to make a Iron Curtain around the border. Just a waste of time and money.

  5. #95
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teacher Terry View Post
    I am a citizen of the world. We do not need to make a Iron Curtain around the border. Just a waste of time and money.
    Cool. where can I get one of those ” citizen of the World” passports?

    That is silly. Try taking your “citizenship of the world” passport to Canada for permanent residency, they will laugh you across the border as they boot you out.

  6. #96
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iris lilies View Post
    Cool. where can I get one of those ” citizen of the World” passports?

    That is silly. Try taking your “citizenship of the world” passport to Canada for permanent residency, they will laugh you across the border as they boot you out.
    Passports are passports. But nationalism as an ideology is dangerous.
    "Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it--every, every minute?" Emily Webb, Our Town
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  7. #97
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catherine View Post
    Passports are passports. But nationalism as an ideology is dangerous.
    Are passports necessary without nationalism?
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  8. #98
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Are passports necessary without nationalism?
    Sure, they may be a useful tool for documenting comings and goings, but they don't require or assume blind, excessive devotion to one's country--that's how I define nationalism, anyway.
    "Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it--every, every minute?" Emily Webb, Our Town
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  9. #99
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    If we were to abolish the nation-state in favor of one world government, the consequences for stamp collecting would be disastrous.

  10. #100
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    IL, you can become a citizen of the world by having empathy and caring about all the people in the world.

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