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Thread: Marriage as Bedrock of Soceity?

  1. #11
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    It's better to raise kids in a functional committed relationship, ok really even a somewhat bad relationship is frankly probably better for the kids than divorce (but not necessarily for the adults).

    But it's not the only thing that can go wrong in a family/in childhood. And it's definitely not the only thing that can go wrong in society.

    I've heard things like child abuse have gone down over time. If so, that is one thing getting better.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Teacher Terry's Avatar
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    I stayed in a bad marriage for my kids. Left a month after the youngest was 18 and out of high school. The kids as adults have thanked me for staying.

  3. #13
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    If you look at the people being accused of being "privileged" or "opportunity hoarders", you are generally looking at the elements of society where the old bourgeois values still prevail. Raising children in stable families is a big part of that. So is a certain respect for education and willingness to delay gratification for a longer term benefit.

    I remember some professor saying that in an op-ed not too long ago and getting widely and viciously attacked by people who felt such ideas are somehow racist or elitist.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Tradd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teacher Terry View Post
    Yes things have changed. I find it interesting that young people think it’s a bigger commitment to get married than to have kids. They often have kids first and then decide if they want to marry. Something is seriously wrong with that line of thinking. Thankfully none of my kids or step kids have done that.
    I find this way of thinking interesting as well. Probably 15 years ago, I worked with a 20-something gal who had been with her guy for a few years. She had just had their first child. I asked her if they were thinking about marriage. She replied that she didn’t know him well enough to get married. Or something along those lines. She didn’t have an answer when I commented that she knew him well enough to have a baby with him. They had been living together for much of their time as a couple.

    I just don’t get it.

  5. #15
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tradd View Post
    I find this way of thinking interesting as well. Probably 15 years ago, I worked with a 20-something gal who had been with her guy for a few years. She had just had their first child. I asked her if they were thinking about marriage. She replied that she didn’t know him well enough to get married. Or something along those lines. She didn’t have an answer when I commented that she knew him well enough to have a baby with him. They had been living together for much of their time as a couple.

    I just don’t get it.
    I agree it's strange. Maybe it's because psychologically, without the constraints of society these days coupled with a profound naivete about how children change your life, maybe these "kids" feel that commitment with marriage is boxing them in, but having a kid is somehow different. I truly don't think people know HOW much children change your life, so they go into as if they're getting a puppy. I've seen it with my two children who now have children (they were conventionally married first--maybe Son #1 a little less conventionally, however..), and I remember how gobsmacked I was the first few months after giving birth with my first.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member JaneV2.0's Avatar
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    Isn't the idea to get young men married off to keep them sexually satisfied and out of trouble, and to get young women married off to give their families relief from supporting them? That was the "traditional" model anyway.

  7. #17
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaneV2.0 View Post
    Isn't the idea to get young men married off to keep them sexually satisfied and out of trouble, and to get young women married off to give their families relief from supporting them? That was the "traditional" model anyway.
    I dont find this to be a very thoughtful or insightful post.

    Despite the protests of women, they havent been chained to providers for at least least three generations (looking at my own family as example.) No one needs to have children if they dont wish it. Young women in cities are now making more money than young men, they can support themselves.

    I continue to wonder why those in my gender continue to blame the patriarchy and society for choices they themselves have clearly made. Choosing to have children with no committed partner seems like another stupid self selection, poor struggling single mom.

  8. #18
    Senior Member SteveinMN's Avatar
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    Cannot agree that marriage is the bedrock of society. There are too many alternatives to the public declaration that is marriage which seem to work rather well. I think committed families are important, socially, economically, psychologically, etc. But that family can take many forms: married-in-church-babies-came-second; long-term partners raising kids (sometimes from previous relationships); "two dads" or "two moms"; or even single parents who have the deep and steady involvement of other (generations of) relatives or friends (the "village" that raises a child).

    I'm hesitant, though, to just call this an issue of semantics between the word "marriage" and other descriptors. Because I really think the bedrock of society is justice along with a dedication to achieving that to the highest degree possible for everyone. Furthering the species and not soiling where you live are, to me, "just do it" behaviors, not chosen behaviors which form the foundation of a society.
    Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as by the obstacles which he has overcome. - Booker T. Washington

  9. #19
    Senior Member JaneV2.0's Avatar
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    I thought I was thinking, but perhaps you know better.

    I just noted the traditional underpinning of marriage, which has persisted for millennia. Clearly a standard I don't adhere to, as I've never married, had children, or required another's support as an adult. (Parenthetically, I know more financially dependent woman than not.) You can certainly avoid the patriarchy* in your personal life, if not in society in general.

    *I worked with a woman who was told by a lender she would need her father's signature to buy a house in the mid-seventies, and I'm sure this kind of stricture persisted far longer in places like Louisiana, with their archaic traditions of governance, so I think your "three generations of independent women" history is a bit of an aberration. I'm the first generation in my family to support myself, for example.

  10. #20
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    I think the bedrock is a successfully functioning extended family. I'm thinking of the adults I've seen who are all doing well but can provide an occasional safety net to each other in the event of short-term job loss, or provide free/cheap babysitting, or trade larger household items with each other including hand-me-down objects that are still useful, or help get someone a job, or provide temporary housing, etc.

    How many of the adults are in a traditional marriage doesn't seem as important as whether the members are each committed to the safety and well-being of the "tribe" so to speak. (of course, this includes healthy boundaries when there are members who are otherwise capable but unwilling to do their share and only want to be takers from the tribe.) Maybe this is a traditional large family, or tribe of friends, or neighbors. Maybe the tribe changes over time.
    But I think the stress on a married couple, especially younger ones raising kids or older couples taking care of both elders and kids, can be greatly alleviated by extended family.

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