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Thread: How long do we hold people responsible for sins of the past?

  1. #31
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    When you are convicted of a felony you lose your rights to vote, etc. Some states allow your rights to be restored. The sex offender laws don’t differentiate between minor crimes and real sexual offenses as someone else noted and ruins people’s lives.

  2. #32
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    When you are convicted of a felony you lose your rights to vote, etc. Some states allow your rights to be restored.
    disagree with this of course, people shouldn't be disenfranchised (and if someone thinks criminals are such a large part of the population that we must deny them their right to vote, then Houston we've got way bigger problems than that at that point )
    If you want something to get done, ask a busy person. If you want them to have a nervous breakdown that is.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultralight View Post
    I don't know if the guy did any of that or not. I don't know if my colleague's sort-of-friend is telling the truth or lying. It seems to be a police investigation should be in order, and all sorts of legal stuff.

    Trial by social media is a messed up thing. The colleague of mine and her boss were talking about this and they are in full support of this woman and think other women should do the same.

    I asked them if they wanted a society where "trial by social media" was an acceptable way to handle accusations of horrible crimes, and they thought it was. They said: "Women have no other way to get justice."
    When they said that, I hope you pointed out that's the justification used by lynch mobs.

    Of course the legal system isn't perfect--never was, never will be. But the alternative is much worse.

    I try to put myself in the place of a woman who has been sexually assaulted, especially by someone she knows or someone who is in a position of power. I remain skeptical of the defense for not coming forward immediately that one often hears: "I was so traumatized that it took all this time before I felt I was able to tell my story." I have no doubt it's very hard, but sometimes in life you have to do things that are hard.

    Let me put it another way. I am not a courageous person. If I were sexually assaulted, I'm not sure what I would do. But I certainly would know what I should​ do.
    Last edited by oldhat; 9-27-18 at 12:30pm.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldhat View Post
    When they said that, I hope you pointed out that's the justification used by lunch mobs.

    Of course the legal system isn't perfect--never was, never will be. But the alternative is much worse.

    I try to put myself in the place of a woman who has been sexually assaulted, especially by someone she knows or someone who is in a position of power. I remain skeptical of the defense for not coming forward immediately that one often hears: "I was so traumatized that it took all this time before I felt I was able to tell my story." I have no doubt it's very hard, but sometimes in life you have to do things that are hard.

    Let me put it another way. I am not a courageous person. If I were sexually assaulted, I'm not sure what I would do. But I certainly would know what I should​ do.
    So I just stumbled across an article from the BBC, which addresses many of these issues--why victims remember some but not all details, the delay in reporting. It's an interesting read: http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2018...-rape-debunked

    A couple of nuggets of information from the article: It is estimated that 2 out of 3 sexual assaults in the US go unreported. In the US 18% of reported sexual assaults result in convictions. For me, as a woman, those are troubling figures. But this I think ties in with the feelings of the women that Ultralight knows--they feel that the official justice system can't or won't help them, so they are trying other strategies.

    For what it's worth, I think many women don't report, not because of trauma, but because of our "blame the victim" attitude on this. Why were you wearing that? Why were you on that dark street/hiking by yourself/alone at a bar? Are you sure you didn't lead him on? Just like the high school dress codes for girls that are all about "not distracting the boys," the majority mindset in the US is that women who are assaulted are in some way to blame.

    Again, I refer you to the Taylor Swift lawsuit. She was at a fan meet-and-greet event when a man touched her inappropriately. At the trial, she was asked why she didn't make a scene right then and there--as if making a scene would be the only proper action to take. Her response was that she didn't want to ruin the event for her fans--which is, to me, a valid reason. She's a professional, she tried to act professionally in the moment. But even that was cast back at her.

    I remember very clearly attending a formal dinner in my 20s. The guy sitting to my right kept putting his hand on my leg--I had not met him before this dinner. When gently removing his hand, pinching his hand, stepping on his foot all did not work to keep his hand where it belonged, I turned to him and quietly, politely, asked him to take his hand off my thigh. You would have thought I had done something horrible, based on the reactions of the others at my table. His wife started yelling at me, my date got angry with me for flirting with the guy--which, trust me, I was not doing. The general consensus was that I had ruined the evening for everyone at the table, when the reality was that it was the man sitting to my right. The guy who took me to the dinner broke up with me. (Obviously, not a huge loss.) But I encourage you to ponder why I was considered in the wrong, when I just wanted to keep my body to myself, and no one, except maybe the guy's wife, saw him as doing anything wrong? I guess they all felt I should have handled it more discreetly, but that wasn't working.

    If you read transcripts of the trial, Swift keeps making the same point over and over. It doesn't matter what she was wearing or what she was doing or what she did or did not do after the assault--the guy should not have touched her where he did. (For those who know nothing about the lawsuit, she complained to the guy's employer, who fired him. He then sued Swift because he lost his job due to her complaint. She counter-sued, for $1, and won. He has yet to pay the fine.)

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Cellaneous View Post
    So I just stumbled across an article from the BBC, which addresses many of these issues--why victims remember some but not all details, the delay in reporting. It's an interesting read: http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2018...-rape-debunked

    A couple of nuggets of information from the article: It is estimated that 2 out of 3 sexual assaults in the US go unreported. In the US 18% of reported sexual assaults result in convictions. For me, as a woman, those are troubling figures. But this I think ties in with the feelings of the women that Ultralight knows--they feel that the official justice system can't or won't help them, so they are trying other strategies.

    For what it's worth, I think many women don't report, not because of trauma, but because of our "blame the victim" attitude on this. Why were you wearing that? Why were you on that dark street/hiking by yourself/alone at a bar? Are you sure you didn't lead him on? Just like the high school dress codes for girls that are all about "not distracting the boys," the majority mindset in the US is that women who are assaulted are in some way to blame.

    Again, I refer you to the Taylor Swift lawsuit. She was at a fan meet-and-greet event when a man touched her inappropriately. At the trial, she was asked why she didn't make a scene right then and there--as if making a scene would be the only proper action to take. Her response was that she didn't want to ruin the event for her fans--which is, to me, a valid reason. She's a professional, she tried to act professionally in the moment. But even that was cast back at her.

    I remember very clearly attending a formal dinner in my 20s. The guy sitting to my right kept putting his hand on my leg--I had not met him before this dinner. When gently removing his hand, pinching his hand, stepping on his foot all did not work to keep his hand where it belonged, I turned to him and quietly, politely, asked him to take his hand off my thigh. You would have thought I had done something horrible, based on the reactions of the others at my table. His wife started yelling at me, my date got angry with me for flirting with the guy--which, trust me, I was not doing. The general consensus was that I had ruined the evening for everyone at the table, when the reality was that it was the man sitting to my right. The guy who took me to the dinner broke up with me. (Obviously, not a huge loss.) But I encourage you to ponder why I was considered in the wrong, when I just wanted to keep my body to myself, and no one, except maybe the guy's wife, saw him as doing anything wrong? I guess they all felt I should have handled it more discreetly, but that wasn't working.

    If you read transcripts of the trial, Swift keeps making the same point over and over. It doesn't matter what she was wearing or what she was doing or what she did or did not do after the assault--the guy should not have touched her where he did. (For those who know nothing about the lawsuit, she complained to the guy's employer, who fired him. He then sued Swift because he lost his job due to her complaint. She counter-sued, for $1, and won. He has yet to pay the fine.)
    But if a person can accuse someone on social media of committing horrible crimes of sexual violence and that be considered acceptable. Then another person could say: "Sally abuses her kids!" or "Mark kicks puppies!" or "Susan is a crack whore" or "Mitch is a heroin junkie" and so on.

    Do you want to live that way? In that sort of a society?
    I came from a real tough neighborhood. I put my hand in some cement and felt another hand." -- Rodney Dangerfield

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultralight View Post
    But if a person can accuse someone on social media of committing horrible crimes of sexual violence and that be considered acceptable. Then another person could say: "Sally abuses her kids!" or "Mark kicks puppies!" or "Susan is a crack whore" or "Mitch is a heroin junkie" and so on.

    Do you want to live that way? In that sort of a society?
    This is already happening! We are already living in that society and it seems anyone on social media is able to say anything they want via tweets, instagram, facebook, etc. From the president down to the 2nd grader who already has their own cell phone.
    To the world you may be one person, but to one person you may be the world. - Anon.

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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultralight View Post
    But if a person can accuse someone on social media of committing horrible crimes of sexual violence and that be considered acceptable. Then another person could say: "Sally abuses her kids!" or "Mark kicks puppies!" or "Susan is a crack whore" or "Mitch is a heroin junkie" and so on.

    Do you want to live that way? In that sort of a society?

    No, I don't want to live that way.

    My point was that there is a significant number of women for whom #timeup is becoming #Iamfedup. If the current system of police and courts continues to fail the victims of sexual assault, then those victims will find another way to strive for justice. Right now, one way is social media.

    We have choices. We can fix the broken system so that women have a chance at a fair trial when they are the victims of sexual assault. Or we can let things continue, in which case, yes, social media will be used to out assailants. If you don't think the system is broken, try Googling the number of untested rape kits in the US. And how long some of them have been sitting in evidence rooms, untested.

    The fear you have of lies being posted on social media--it is already happening. It's nothing new; it's been around since people wrote graffiti in Pompeii. It just reaches more people on the internet. Our president uses social media to make unsubstantiated remarks about people all the time.

  8. #38
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    those lies on social media are important in a way that graffiti is not, so no it's not the same thing, false comparison of the century. And they are important in a way that the presidents tweets are not especially as he has very little credibility himself. So no. They could affect things that actually matter like job prospects. Personally I don't think anyone should be on social media at all ever except if they have to (if you think you have to have a linked-in for job searching, have one. If your job or your business involves doing advertising or PR on social media than do so etc.). But otherwise if it's just for fun, stay far far far away. I don't do social media.

    Uh and who doesn't have problems getting justice in the current criminal justice system? Most criminal charges never even go to trial, so many of those serving time got dubious justice one could argue.
    If you want something to get done, ask a busy person. If you want them to have a nervous breakdown that is.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore View Post
    those lies on social media are important in a way that graffiti is not, so no it's not the same thing, false comparison of the century. And they are important in a way that the presidents tweets are not especially as he has very little credibility himself. So no. They could affect things that actually matter like job prospects. Personally I don't think anyone should be on social media at all ever except if they have to (if you think you have to have a linked-in for job searching, have one. If your job or your business involves doing advertising or PR on social media than do so etc.). But otherwise if it's just for fun, stay far far far away. I don't do social media.

    Uh and who doesn't have problems getting justice in the current criminal justice system? Most criminal charges never even go to trial, so many of those serving time got dubious justice one could argue.
    I was not referring to modern graffitti, but the graffiti of hundreds of years ago, which was the social media of its time. And a certain percentage of the US population does indeed believe every word tweeted by the president. I work with people who are Ever Trumpers.

    But again, you missed my point. Many women are upset about the way our society treats the victims of sexual assault. If you would prefer social media not be used to out sexual predators, you can work to find more acceptable systems for these victims to get justice.

    People have been lying since the Garden of Eden. The internet just spreads the lies faster. And the truth. Nothing is new. Nothing has changed. False accusations are not the result of social media.

  10. #40
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    No the system does not need to be perfect for one to question the wisdom and uses of vigilante justice (if it has uses one better think long and hard about what they are). So no I do not need to reform the entire system to do so. I care very little about powerful people like Kavanaugh and whether he passes his job interview or not, people like him make life miserable for the rest of us even when we don't know him, though with Trump and present congress they are all going to be just as bad probably.
    If you want something to get done, ask a busy person. If you want them to have a nervous breakdown that is.

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