Page 4 of 9 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 88

Thread: Identity politics destroying friendships?

  1. #31
    Senior Member Ultralight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    8,999
    Quote Originally Posted by Gardenarian View Post
    Tl;dr

    You are telling your female friend that sexism isn't a problem?
    You are saying that her own experiences and feelings aren't valid?

    And you're surprised this pisses her off?
    I actually did not tell her that sexism is not a problem. I said I think sexism is rapidly fading in our society and that her own lifestyle shows some of that, but I also cited high profile examples and certain demographic trends, such as women dominating men in higher education.

    Let me ask you this: What makes an experience "valid?"
    What makes feelings "valid?"

    Now, I am pretty sure you are going to dodge answering those questions. But maybe you will surprise me and take a shot at it. We'll see.
    I came from a real tough neighborhood. I put my hand in some cement and felt another hand." -- Rodney Dangerfield

  2. #32
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    6,965
    As a thought exercise I decided switch the genders of my friend, well, former friend.

    And it is interesting the picture that is painted.

    "He is 33 and in a management position at a huge international corporation where some of his underlings are women and people of color. He makes about $90k.

    He owns his own nice house in a trendy neighborhood and owns his own new car.

    He has two bachelor degrees (Spanish and Pharm Sales). He also has an MBA. He got scholarships!

    He teaches part-time for Kaplan (the testing company).

    He travels, plays golf, goes to football games and concerts with his buddies. He dates women as he pleases, and is on the board of a non-profit."

    Now doesn't this guy sound like he is very, very privileged?
    I would just say "they seem to be doing decently financially now, and that has better odds for doing well financially later than not doing well financially now.". I mean I guess you can call someone with millions banked privileged in the financial department but your not even talking about people with real and significant wealth, merely a decent income, splitting hairs on differences in income that don't even seem that significant in the scheme of things.

    But I still think the mother hypothesis could be true, her mother experienced a lot of sexism, well never underestimate a mother's influence on a girl as it's her model for being a woman.
    If you want something to get done, ask a busy person. If you want them to have a nervous breakdown that is.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Ultralight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    8,999
    Quote Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore View Post
    I would just say "they seem to be doing decently financially now, and that has better odds for doing well financially later than not doing well financially now.". I mean I guess you can call someone with millions banked privileged in the financial department but your not even talking about people with real and significant wealth, merely a decent income, splitting hairs on differences in income that don't even seem that significant in the scheme of things.

    But I still think the mother hypothesis could be true, her mother experienced a lot of sexism, well never underestimate a mother's influence on a girl as it's her model for being a woman.
    Well, a $90k salary in Cleveland, OH is bangin'! In LA I am sure it is chump change.

    Interestingly, this friend of mine has pointed out that she believes her father is the ideal man. Her father and her mother are both married and have been since the late 1970s.

    Much of her complaints about sexism come from "being passed over for promotions for lesser qualified straight, white men."

    And this could be true.

    But what my friend does not understand is that sometimes promotions are about more than your resume. They are also about personality. Her personality is rather grating. She is domineering (and no, I don't mean assertive; I know the difference). She often comes off as rather rude. She talks down to people. People don't like that. haha
    I came from a real tough neighborhood. I put my hand in some cement and felt another hand." -- Rodney Dangerfield

  4. #34
    Senior Member herbgeek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    1,927
    I said I think sexism is rapidly fading in our society and that her own lifestyle shows some of that, but I also cited high profile examples and certain demographic trends, such as women dominating men in higher education.
    So if your friend was black, would you say that the fact that he/she made more than you to be evidence that racism is rapidly fading? Or would the fact we elected a partially black president be proof that racism is no more?

  5. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    4,496
    Quote Originally Posted by herbgeek View Post
    So if your friend was black, would you say that the fact that he/she made more than you to be evidence that racism is rapidly fading? Or would the fact we elected a partially black president be proof that racism is no more?
    While not conclusive in themselves, those data points would seem supportive of a conclusion that racism is in decline.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Gardenarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    4,198
    People don't need to prove their personal experiences or justify their feelings, certainly not to friends. Feeling and experiences belong to ourselves, and have their own validity.

    If you must make an issue out of it, there is overwhelming evidence of sexism, particularly in the U.S., and the current political climate is trying to take back gains that women have made by cutting support for women's reproductive health, family support, equal employment laws, and so on. You can point to a few outliers, but that's what they are - outliers. Look at the make-up of Congress, the Senate, the Supreme Court. Look at who are the highest paid actors and athletes. Look at who is taking care of the kids. How many rapists are ever actually convicted? The "me too" movement is primarily well known men; every minute a woman is assaulted or raped and the majority of these attacks are never addressed. Sexism is not a debatable point; it is part of our culture.

  7. #37
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    13,115
    Quote Originally Posted by Gardenarian View Post
    People don't need to prove their personal experiences or justify their feelings, certainly not to friends. Feeling and experiences belong to ourselves, and have their own validity.

    If you must make an issue out of it, there is overwhelming evidence of sexism, particularly in the U.S., and the current political climate is trying to take back gains that women have made by cutting support for women's reproductive health, family support, equal employment laws, and so on. You can point to a few outliers, but that's what they are - outliers. Look at the make-up of Congress, the Senate, the Supreme Court. Look at who are the highest paid actors and athletes. Look at who is taking care of the kids. How many rapists are ever actually convicted? The "me too" movement is primarily well known men; every minute a woman is assaulted or raped and the majority of these attacks are never addressed. Sexism is not a debatable point; it is part of our culture.
    Not a debatable point? Come now.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Ultralight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    8,999
    Gardenarian: I appreciate learning about your perspectives. I also appreciate this opportunity to discuss and even debate some of these important issues with you. This is a great forum for such activities. So let me go piece by piece, both to make sure I understand you and to raise issues or points of my own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardenarian View Post
    People don't need to prove their personal experiences or justify their feelings, certainly not to friends.
    Friends engage in debates and have disagreements. My friend and I were discussing and debating an issue. She made assertions that I took issue with and I expressed myself. Some of these issues were directly related to her experiences and her subjective perceptions about those experiences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardenarian View Post
    Feeling and experiences belong to ourselves, and have their own validity.
    Feelings and experiences are our own. But feelings are not facts. For instance, most people feel safe riding in a car. But auto deaths are a major cause of death in the US. The experience of feeling safe in a car is misleading to the rider and/or driver. See how our feelings don't jive with reality sometimes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardenarian View Post
    If you must make an issue out of it, there is overwhelming evidence of sexism, particularly in the U.S., and the current political climate is trying to take back gains that women have made by cutting support for women's reproductive health, family support, equal employment laws, and so on.
    Share with me some of this overwhelming evidence along with the sources from which it came. I would really like to read it and learn more.

    As someone who donated to Planned Parenthood I am certainly also very concerned about women's right to abortion being taken away by right-wing judges.

    But let's think about the political climate. There are more women than men in the US, so they could control our electoral politics if they worked in unison. Women also live longer, so they can cast more votes over the course of their lifetimes.

    Could it be that some women are just conservative politically and this is why our political climate is the way it is? This seems like an issue you might also want to take up with conservative women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardenarian View Post
    You can point to a few outliers, but that's what they are - outliers.
    I think I can actually point to a huge number of what you call "outliers." But it might take up more space than would be easily readable here. Let me give you a few though.

    Beyonce, a black woman, is the most popular pop star in the world.

    Oprah is one of the world's most powerful media moguls -- and she grew up underprivileged during the 1960s.

    Maxine Waters is a black congresswoman. She was not in any way legally barred from running from or serving in office. She ran, she got elected, she now serves in her office.

    Hillary Clinton ran for president and got backing from many other politicians, businesses, and other organizations. She won the popular vote and came very close to the presidency. I did not vote for her, but her run certainly shows that a woman can and likely will become president someday soon.

    Serena Williams is a hugely successful and massively popular accomplished athlete. She is also black and married to a very, very rich white tech mogul.

    Women are simply crushing men when it comes to higher education. Check out this article: https://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...nority/536103/


    I have many more examples if you would like them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardenarian View Post
    Look at the make-up of Congress, the Senate, the Supreme Court.
    Women collectively could easily vote the men out of congress and the senate. But I actually think some women voted for the men in there that you resent so much. As for the supreme court, I simply wish it was more liberal -- a lot more liberal! Women could vote for presidents who will appoint women judges to the SCOTUS. Why haven't they?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardenarian View Post
    Look at who are the highest paid actors and athletes.
    Give me some names and numbers here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardenarian View Post
    Look at who is taking care of the kids.
    Active and involved parents take care of the kids. The American women who take care of their kids do so because they chose to have kids and then continue to choose to take care of these kids. I fail to see the issue you are bringing up. Please explain.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gardenarian View Post
    How many rapists are ever actually convicted?
    I am not sure. Please give me statistics. I want to learn more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardenarian View Post
    The "me too" movement is primarily well known men; every minute a woman is assaulted or raped and the majority of these attacks are never addressed.
    Can you give me more info and statistics to verify your claims?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardenarian View Post
    Sexism is not a debatable point; it is part of our culture.
    Please explain more.
    I came from a real tough neighborhood. I put my hand in some cement and felt another hand." -- Rodney Dangerfield

  9. #39
    Senior Member Gardenarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    4,198

  10. #40
    Senior Member Ultralight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    8,999
    Inadequate answer.
    I came from a real tough neighborhood. I put my hand in some cement and felt another hand." -- Rodney Dangerfield

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •