Identity politics destroying friendships?

[Ultralight]

I had a long discussion with my father last night on a very related topic. He is gay. I have been collecting his stories, those of his husband, and those of their friends for some time. My father is 77 years old.

When he was in his 20s, he faced losing everything if he came out - his job, his community, his life. Possibly jail time, depending on the circumstances. Just when headway was being made for gay rights, the AIDS epidemic hit. I was a large portion of my father's friends and social circle wither away and die. It was much more personal for him, I was just a kid.

Part of our discussion last night revolved around his concept that "they'd pretty much won", which centers around the privileged white upper-middle-class male gays embracing a very binary view of the world, and defining "winning" as embracing the heteronormative view of "marriage", and integrating into a very patriarchal binary society. While selling out queer folks, intersex folks, trans folks, and a lot of other folks.

Pride events have turned into consumerist frenzies for wealthy vacationing gays, and those who are still heavily oppressed, or invisible, are pushed into the margins.

So, it was an interesting conversation. Yes, things are "better" for some, for others the situation isn't greatly improved, and the administration's recent natterings have a distinct tinge of Berlin in the 30s about to fall to the nationalists and the queer life of the city destroyed in bonfires and beatings.

This may sound simplistic. But hey, this is a simple living forum.

I hope that someday whether a person is gay or trans or queer or black or atheist or Hindu or whatever just is not important. These characteristics would simply not be an issue in getting a job or an education or a house in a certain neighborhood or when buying a cake from a baker. I'd hope that when someone's mother finds out they are gay she is like "no big deal."

[Teacher Terry]

UL, sometimes you make my head hurt )

[iris lilies]

I want to point out a couple things.

Remember, I asked my former friend several times about just quitting the topic, moving on, agreeing to disagree, etc. She kept at it over and over. I even said to her: "I am not sure if you want drop this topic because you keep reengaging me on it again."

In real life, I think because we see each other's facial expressions I rarely have intense debates. Once or twice a month I meet up with my friend "Good Jeff" (I also have a friend called "Evil Jeff". Good Jeff and I debate, go rounds over various things. His latest hobby horse is letting kids "transition" if they want to. We debated it. We still disagree on part of it.

But like clockwork, we'll still meet for dinner. Maybe we debate. Maybe we talk about dating, marriages, food, last summer's garden, the atheist community, etc.

we used to have friends “ good John” and “Bad john.”

Good John had been jailed for child moleststion. Bad John let his dog off leash regularly. These were neighborhood names.

I think you can guess the values of our neighborhood from these names.

That was Just an aside, now back to our regularly scheduled discussion topic...

[Teacher Terry]

Definitely time for a new neighborhood!

[jp1]

This may sound simplistic. But hey, this is a simple living forum.

I hope that someday whether a person is gay or trans or queer or black or atheist or Hindu or whatever just is not important. These characteristics would simply not be an issue in getting a job or an education or a house in a certain neighborhood or when buying a cake from a baker. I'd hope that when someone's mother finds out they are gay she is like "no big deal."

I wish we lived in that world. Alan has posted here before that he already treats people this way. And he probably does. But a lot of people don’t. And people who are in the minority in one way or another dont have the luxury of pretending that race or sexuality or whatever doesnt matter. Because they don’t set the rules that society follows. The minority has to worry that they won’t be able to buy a cake, or that they will be forced to explain why their driver’s license says male but they present as female when they are just trying to buy a beer at a bar or whatever.

[bae]

And people who are in the minority in one way or another dont have the luxury of pretending that race or sexuality or whatever doesnt matter. Because they don’t set the rules that society follows.

I have a friend in Seattle, who is quite an accomplished artist, with a great job, and all the obvious external trappings of success and "normalcy". Yet when I am visiting her and it gets to be after dark, she always asks that I or someone else escort her home, and not for hanky-panky - she's just afraid of violence directed at her, and she is a member of a very vulnerable population. And her fear is not without reason, when she didn't yet have "passing privilege", she had a horrific time or two.

[Teacher Terry]

Bae, that’s so sad and disgusting. Why do people even care about others sexuality, etc. Also scary is people of color being abused in public for just going about their own business. This won’t be solved in my lifetime.

[Ultralight]

jp1:

You should totally read this and take heart!

http://www.people-press.org/2017/06/...een-skeptical/