Sierra Club: To Have or Not to Have Children in the Age of Climate Change

[Ultralight]

We have one child, a daughter, who is now 41 years old. Other than a period of time, roughly 14 years of age to 18 years of age, she's been an absolute treasure, and her two children have been the greatest blessing I could ever hope to receive. I think that when people like me ask people like some of you about your child rearing plans, we're just hoping to share some of the joy with you.

Probably. And I don't even mind when people "bingo" me.

But I don't like when folks get offended when I say I don't want kids.

[catherine]

But I don't like when folks get offended when I say I don't want kids.

I don't get offended by people not wanting to have children at all! Makes me feel less guilty for doubling my/DH's replacement rate.

Raising kids isn't for everyone, that's for sure.

[Ultralight]

I see pessimism as one of those luxuries indulged in by the comfortable. Most of our history as a species has been a struggle for survival that allowed little scope for inessential cultural artifacts like pessimism.

Do you think that pessimism and optimism can be based on the best evidence rather than on someone's gut feeling?

For instance, should someone with cancer of the everything remain optimistic? Or should they be realistic/pessimistic?

When it comes to the climate crisis I am a pessimist/realist because of the evidence. When it comes to lunch at Chipotle tomorrow being good, I am an optimist/realist, because of the evidence.

See how this works?

[Ultralight]

Some countries have stopped internally adoptions and it’s expensive.

Having kids biologically is also rather expensive.

[ApatheticNoMore]

To the contrary they are often activists trying to put the fires out or contain them or treat the burns.

yes meanwhile while others let Darwin sort it out, some just fight for the chance that there might be a remotely non-terrible future for anyone who happens to be born now or anytime recently (whatever recently means in this context)

Honestly though George Bernard Shaw, are we really talking the opinions of a late 19th century, early 20th century Fabian socialist, as some kind of take on climate change? Yea I was raised seeing such plays, but really relevance ..

[happystuff]

Re: adoption - there are a number of ways to and types of adoption. It's so much more complex than simply saying "it's expensive" or "everyone just wants babies", etc. There are also way more people involved in building a family by adoption than by birth. It's not for everyone.

[catherine]

Do you think that pessimism and optimism can be based on the best evidence rather than on someone's gut feeling?

For instance, should someone with cancer of the everything remain optimistic? Or should they be realistic/pessimistic?

When it comes to the climate crisis I am a pessimist/realist because of the evidence. When it comes to lunch at Chipotle tomorrow being good, I am an optimist/realist, because of the evidence.

See how this works?

This is the interesting thing. The duality are optimism an pessimism--two different attitudes about how you approach reality. Why is optimism the opposite of reality, but pessimism is reality? Why is pessimism more "real" than optimism. Pessimism an optimism are outlooks--by definition, not necessarily "reality." And frankly, what is reality? Everyone has their own subjective experience of what is "real." But you are claiming that because you are a pessimist you are a realist, which is not the case.

[Ultralight]

This is the interesting thing. The duality are optimism an pessimism--two different attitudes about how you approach reality. Why is optimism the opposite of reality, but pessimism is reality? Why is pessimism more "real" than optimism. Pessimism an optimism are outlooks--by definition, not necessarily "reality." And frankly, what is reality? Everyone has their own subjective experience of what is "real." But you are claiming that because you are a pessimist you are a realist, which is not the case.

I really think you should go back and read what I said again, the part you are commenting on.

I did not say that optimism is always the opposite of reality (though I sometimes joke about that!). See above where I said I was optimistic that my lunch at Chipotle will taste good because it always has in the past. Lots of evidence!

For me, pessimism or optimism are outlooks I take on based on the best evidence.
The climate crisis looks really bad -- this is the overwhelming scientific near-consensus. Like 2% of scientists are skeptical of the climate crisis. The other 98% are like: "We are booed, screwed, and tattooed! Here is my mountain of evidence!"
So I am pessimistic about it.

Everyone has their own reality? Really? Explain.

[Ultralight]

Re: adoption - there are a number of ways to and types of adoption. It's so much more complex than simply saying "it's expensive" or "everyone just wants babies", etc. There are also way more people involved in building a family by adoption than by birth. It's not for everyone.

When people are all like: "Adoption is expensive" or "You have to jump through so many hoops to adopt!"

I am like: If you have to worry about expense and hoop-jumping, then having kids is not for you. Raising children is all about expenses and hoop-jumping.

Queue up the haters to throw zings at me for this...

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Go!

[Tybee]

This is the interesting thing. The duality are optimism an pessimism--two different attitudes about how you approach reality. Why is optimism the opposite of reality, but pessimism is reality? Why is pessimism more "real" than optimism. Pessimism an optimism are outlooks--by definition, not necessarily "reality." And frankly, what is reality? Everyone has their own subjective experience of what is "real." But you are claiming that because you are a pessimist you are a realist, which is not the case.

I agree. In this example, "should someone with cancer of the everything remain optimistic? Or should they be realistic/pessimistic" there is a very limited and solipsistic viewpoint. My uncle who died at 23 when his plane was shot down over Normandy--he was part of something larger, and his courage and his actions helped to liberate the Concentration Camps, to free France from the Nazis. You could look at his sacrifice from a limited standpoint and say, see, you die at 23, it's a horrible thing, life--or you could say that his life has value, that all life has value, and that we are part of something larger.

As I get older, I am very drawn to people with a positive mindset, and I see every day how that makes life better for them and for those around them. People who choose to be optimists and be positive people have a magnetic effect; I truly believe they multiply good.