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  1. #4361
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    Don’t those people have enough to think about without making moral evaluations of their patients?
    definitely, it's why you don't want hospitals to reach that overwhelm to begin with, but if they do, believe it did here in winter, it wasn't left up to individual hosptials, whole crisis care standards had been developed.
    If you want something to get done, ask a busy person. If you want them to have a nervous breakdown that is.

  2. #4362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yppej View Post
    Yep. I have been packing on the pounds - twenty since covid started - and if I have adverse health effects that's on me. I would fully expect a healthier, especially a younger and healthier person, to be triaged ahead of me.
    That's not triage!

    Triage means you treat the people who will probably survive with treatment and die without it first. You treat the people who need treatment but won't die if treatment is delayed next. And the people who will probably die even if you give them immediate treatment last. Of course whether someone is in category one or category three is often a judgement call. And someone with a 90% chance of dying even if you give them the best possible treatment, would usually get treated ahead of someone who only has superficial scrapes and bruises.

    The point is, triage treats patients based on severity of injuries and how likely it is that fast treatment will significantly improve their outcome. It has nothing to do with whether or not someone thinks the person deserves to be sick/injured.

  3. #4363
    Senior Member Yppej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeParker View Post
    That's not triage!

    Triage means you treat the people who will probably survive with treatment and die without it first. You treat the people who need treatment but won't die if treatment is delayed next. And the people who will probably die even if you give them immediate treatment last. Of course whether someone is in category one or category three is often a judgement call. And someone with a 90% chance of dying even if you give them the best possible treatment, would usually get treated ahead of someone who only has superficial scrapes and bruises.

    The point is, triage treats patients based on severity of injuries and how likely it is that fast treatment will significantly improve their outcome. It has nothing to do with whether or not someone thinks the person deserves to be sick/injured.
    Obesity has a high correlation with covid-19 mortality. It's not a moral judgment, it's a fact.

    A guy at work was just telling us yesterday about a couple in the area in their forties with four kids. They both just died of covid. Their only risk factor was obesity. The kids are all medically fine, in keeping with the fact that covid rarely impacts children. Neither parent was vaccinated.

    Being unvaccinated also correlates to covid mortality.

  4. #4364
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere View Post
    A 66 year old fully vaccinated friend is in the hospital with Covid and five people who had been around her tested positive so far. ICU's still over 90℅ full around me. Our vaccination rate is now close to 55% but I never see anyone wearing a mask except in large chain stores that mandate them. However their nose is hanging out or they are on their chins.
    I hope your friend heals quickly and with no long term effects.
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  5. #4365
    Senior Member Yppej's Avatar
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    Kingston, MA put in a mask mandate and there were so many complaints 12 hours later they rescinded it. I wish people in my city were as concerned about the loss of personal liberties.

  6. #4366
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    I have a triage kit in my response gear, training in what to do, and have had to use it in unpleasant real life situations. Not a fun time.

  7. #4367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yppej View Post
    Obesity has a high correlation with covid-19 mortality. It's not a moral judgment, it's a fact.
    What is your point???? How does that have anything to do with you saying "if I have adverse health effects [because of being fat] that's on me. I would fully expect a healthier, especially a younger and healthier person, to be triaged ahead of me."?

    If you getting immediate treatment will improve the odds of you living, and your risk of dying will be higher if treatment is delayed, then medically and morally you should be treated ahead of a younger healthier person who is at less risk of dying. That is the essence of triage. Deciding to delay treatment because you think the sick person "deserves" to be sick, is indeed making a judgement about their character and unethical.

  8. #4368
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeParker View Post
    What is your point???? How does that have anything to do with you saying if being fat caused you to be sick you "would fully expect a healthier, especially a younger and healthier person, to be triaged ahead of [you]"?

    If your odds of living will be better if you get immediate treatment, and your risk of dying is higher if treatment is delayed, then medically and morally you should be treated ahead of a younger healthier person who is at less risk of dying. That is the essence of triage. Deciding to delay treatment because you think the sick person "deserves" to be sick, is indeed making a judgement about their character and unethical.
    If it were congenital diabetes or anything else, not under my control, I would still expect the healthier, younger person to be given preference over me. They have many years of life ahead of them. I am on the downward slope. If resources are limited why expend them on me to give me X number of years of additional life if someone else can be given XX years, and they are more likely to rebound from being on a ventilator, which causes many problems?

  9. #4369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yppej View Post
    If it were congenital diabetes or anything else, not under my control, I would still expect the healthier, younger person to be given preference over me. They have many years of life ahead of them. I am on the downward slope. If resources are limited why expend them on me to give me X number of years of additional life if someone else can be given XX years, and they are more likely to rebound from being on a ventilator, which causes many problems?
    That is a moral question which each person will have to decide for themself. You are totally free to refuse treatment or insist on being put at the back of the line, if you're conscious, but when you talk about triage you're asking the doctor to make a medical decision based on which person he thinks deserves to live or deserves to die. If you don't see the difference between those two situations, there is nothing I can say to you that will make you understand why I think your opinion is wrong.

  10. #4370
    Senior Member Yppej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeParker View Post
    That is a moral question which each person will have to decide for themself. You are totally free to refuse treatment or insist on being put at the back of the line, if you're conscious, but when you talk about triage you're asking the doctor to make a medical decision based on which person he thinks deserves to live or deserves to die. If you don't see the difference between those two situations, there is nothing I can say to you that will make you understand why I think your opinion is wrong.
    So if you had a baby that could live ninety years, and a terminal patient in their nineties who could live a few more days, and each needs immediate treatment, you would view them the same? I think most people are more utilitarian than that.

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