A Better Way

[happystuff]

Sometimes when I see inexplicable selfish behavior, I wonder if it doesn't go back to how we are parented. However, if you observe young toddlers, some are naturally willing/wanting to share and others are trying to grab for themselves. Can respect for others and cooperation be taught? I think my Catholic upbringing certainly molded me to be more empathetic than the average bear even though I am no longer religious.

I think they most definitely can be taught. Whether an individual chooses to learn these things and/or put them into practise, I think is a different thing.

I don't know that I would hold a lot to how we are parented - which, yes, I believe makes an impact - but every person comes to a time/age when they must choose for themselves what they believe, how to behave, what they value, etc. Again, it is that all-powerful individual "choice".

[iris lilies]

I agree. If we would only volunteer to do the right thing, we wouldn't need laws at all.

While I don’t disagree with Steve’s assessment of government regulation, I think we have to recognize that there are different values represented in “the right thing.”


I mean, we talk about that here in this forum. Rob values different things than what I value.



Values matter in making decisions. Values are not universal. We all operate according to our values. Or at least, we try to operate according to that which we value, sometimes we fall down.

[Tybee]

Yes, we operate according to our values, and some people are born trying to grab things from others, like the toddlers pinkytoe speaks of. All my life, if I had something, my brother would take it. So there are reticent people and pushy people, and bullies and victims. My grandmother had 10 brothers and sisters. One of her brothers cheated her out of her inheritance. He probably cheated other brothers and sisters as well. He ended up rich; she lived on social security and her teacher's pension in a house without airconditioning in Florida. Another was cruel and ended up running a numbers operation in Miami. Another was a minister and saved all his life to go up to Alaska and baptise Eskimos.

These are people raised in the same homes, with very different reactions. So much of behavior is hard-wired. So much of behavior is cultural--eldest sons appropriate everything, get everything given to them. Generations of patriarchy.

I am always wondering how this will affect the implementation of any new system, whether it will work well, or whether some animals will be more equal than others.

[happystuff]

I am always wondering how this will affect the implementation of any new system, whether it will work well, or whether some animals will be more equal than others.

I think the problem may be expecting that the implementation of a new system will "automatically" make things better (or worse, as the case may be). I think the kind of change being talked about in the OP and subsequent posts have to do with changes in thought and behavior on an internal basis, not through being mandated. Attitudes and beliefs, for example, are taught and learned, but can be changed. Seeing an actual, internal, massive change in any one direction by the majority members of a society, I think takes time - time for the old attitudes and beliefs to "die off", so to speak. Start with one, then two, the four, then eight, etc. people making these internal positive choices for themselves and others, and change does occur. Sorry - don't know if I'm expressing this well or not.

The only example I can come up with to relate to current times is "mask wearing". In US society right now, the attitude of mask wearing is sort of all over the place! It's a new thing for us to have to even think about, let alone put into practice or have ingrained into our habits and norms. Yet, for most South Koreans wearing a mask is a norm, it is a behavior that has been deemed as beneficial for both the individual and society as a whole. This did not occur for the South Koreans with the COVID-19 virus, but with previous events within their country. An evolution, I suppose.

Again, sorry if I'm adding confusion instead of understanding.

[Alan]

So much of behavior is cultural--eldest sons appropriate everything, get everything given to them. Generations of patriarchy.

I'm the eldest son in a family of 5 sons, no daughters. I don't recognize this generalization.

[iris lilies]

I'm the eldest son in a family of 5 sons, no daughters. I don't recognize this generalization.

My DH, eldest son, is a get-along-dont-ruffle -feathers guy with his siblings.

[bae]

I'm the eldest son in a family of 5 sons, no daughters. I don't recognize this generalization.

I'm the eldest son in my family. I had to buy my own first car, when I was 20. I had to pay rent at home when I was a teenager, and contribute to the grocery bill. I had to pay for most of my college education myself, graduating with large loans. When I was a little kid, I had an "allowance", for which I had to work doing actual labor around the home, labor which would probably be in violation of today's child-labor laws. My "wages" in my allowance were a pittance compared to what I earned doing exactly the same work for neighbors...

My sibling received her first car, a fully-restored classic Mustang, on her 16th birthday. She never had to pay rent at home. She received a generous allowance, for which she had to do absolutely nothing around the home. Parents gave her, over and over, funds and resources to get her life off the ground. She's currently living, rent-free, in a home I own. Right next to my Mom, in another house I own. I do not expect to inherit anything from my parents. The sister will get the entirety of the parents' estates.

Go Patriarchy!

[iris lilies]

Not at all! That would defeat the point, which as razz and happystuff pointed out, is an individual choice; plus the idea of a gift economy is to give the individual patrons the option of what to pay. So there is MORE freedom in that model, not less.

Why dont you elsborate on “the gift economy” since that is Something you talk about but it is unclear to me what it is, if money is indeed allowed to change hands in it. I had assumed gift economy meant bartering, no money.

[Tammy]

Bae - our stories are similar.

I’m the oldest of 4. My dad apologizes to me lately that he helped the other 3 a lot more than he did me. I left home and got married at 19 and did lots of things that he disagreed with. The others followed his direction and got married a lot later and he paid for their college, grad school, and helped one get started in farming. He is trying to make it fair now and I have 80 acres in my name in Ohio since he recently signed over his land equally to the 4 kids. He is focused on none of us taking more than our share after his death.

But there is something about the freedom I’ve had all these years. I wouldn’t change anything if I had to do it over. Even though I lived through many years of barely making it financially ...

Earlier in this thread there was talk of whether humans are basically selfish or basically altruistic. The research I’ve read says both are true. A balance between the two is needed to maintain society as we know it. They serve disparate purposes but both are necessary.

[happystuff]

These are people raised in the same homes, with very different reactions.

I am one of eight children; ask any one of us about growing up and you will get eight different stories and with eight different reactions.