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Thread: Irreversible Damage by Abigail Shrier

  1. #11
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    I am sorry to hear this, very much so. I have been watching the YouTube transitioners (a few) and the detransitioners (a few more) for some months and skimming other first person accounts, and there does not appear to be universal truths, science, or facts. But I suppose that is typical for newish issues in health and human services psychological research.

    The social media atmosphere does indeed to be as you describe, pushing relentlessly one worldview and professionals who should be guiding everyone along are at a loss.

    I’ve said to myself “so glad I don’t have a child to guide through this minefield” so my sympathies to all who are doing this.

    Dont we wish we could just hold them off of any permanent changes to their bodies until at LEAST age 25. That is the scary stuff to me.

  2. #12
    Senior Member razz's Avatar
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    Sorry to hear this, Idahl, and understand a little the challenges.

    It seems to me (just thinking out loud) that what has gone crazy is the focus solely on human sexuality itself. Yes, I recognize it is a powerful emotion that is an important part of being human but society outlets, the media of all kinds, and other influences enabled by the technology available today have created such an emphasis on human sexuality alone that over-rides what it is to be an evolving thinking being capable of amazing abilities in so many fields that need to be explored before defining ourselves permanently.

    I do try to understand the importance of their sexuality to others and, I confess, I generally ignore it because I love them for the wonderful qualities of humour, intelligence, kindness, insight, vitality, joy, creativity, etc that they exhibit and demonstrate in and throughout their lives. Their actual sexuality is not what makes them unique human beings but the qualities they manifest in their lives.
    As Cicero said, “Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues, but the parent of all the others.”

  3. #13
    Senior Member Teacher Terry's Avatar
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    I also feel that teens need to slow down and become older before making permanent decisions. So sorry Lladhl.

  4. #14
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    My DIL's brother is a female-male trans. He transitioned after his mother died, and I don't know if that was intentional. But every time I look at him I see challenge and courage. The family is totally supportive, and he is now married and he and his wife are about to have a baby.

    I have to admit that I was raised SO, SO sheltered. My Catholic upbringing almost led me to an asexual path. I think gender identity questions transcend easy answers. This book is about female dysphoria, but what about males who have similar angst about their gender identity? It all seems messy, but messy seems better than where we were when everyone was in the closet.
    "Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it--every, every minute?" Emily Webb, Our Town
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  5. #15
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razz View Post
    Sorry to hear this, Idahl, and understand a little the challenges.

    It seems to me (just thinking out loud) that what has gone crazy is the focus solely on human sexuality itself. Yes, I recognize it is a powerful emotion that is an important part of being human but society outlets, the media of all kinds, and other influences enabled by the technology available today have created such an emphasis on human sexuality alone that over-rides what it is to be an evolving thinking being capable of amazing abilities in so many fields that need to be explored before defining ourselves permanently.

    I do try to understand the importance of their sexuality to others and, I confess, I generally ignore it because I love them for the wonderful qualities of humour, intelligence, kindness, insight, vitality, joy, creativity, etc that they exhibit and demonstrate in and throughout their lives. Their actual sexuality is not what makes them unique human beings but the qualities they manifest in their lives.
    The book I reference in this thread talks about the startling LACK of romantic experience sexual experience if you will, with current teens and young people. The numbers of those with experience are way way down from decades ago. We can blame dependance on social media for that.

  6. #16
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    Dont we wish we could just hold them off of any permanent changes to their bodies until at LEAST age 25. That is the scary stuff to me.
    one can't really though as irreversible permanent changes take place before then anyway, aka puberty. It's not like sexuality, if you try out a sexual orientation and it doesn't seem to fit (for the ambiguous,I know plenty are not ambiguous but some are), you can always have different partners later. The only thing you need to discard is a label which are only useful to try to make sense of things, and when it no longer works should be discarded. But the body takes on gendered features just due to puberty and it is somewhat irreversible.

    But sexuality, yea the constant emphasis on sex is kind of much, when everything else, like platonic friendships, are as important as sex ever was to one, but they are treated as less important. It's hard not to feel pressure to be super sexual in this culture, especially when young. It's one thing to be told "sex is natural, no need to feel ashamed of wanting and experimenting with and having sex" and another to be told "must make sex central to one's life".

    I could very well see not dealing well as a teenager when presented with gender as another problem to try to solve intellectually, instead of something that just is. I mean one is trying to figure oneself out in 1000 other ways already (sexuality, moral values, life aspirations, political orientation, career etc.), it's nice to take some things for granted!!! But this is not actual transexuality, but a person who basically doesn't think about gender much at all (aka cis), being dumped with yet another thing they have to figure out at an age where there is just way way too much to figure out to begin with! Cognitive overload.

    If I was in the realm of the not yet born and was to choose a biological sex to be born as in this patriarchal society, would I choose male in a second? Nah, I'd choose it in less than second! But am I male? Nope!
    If you want something to get done, ask a busy person. If you want them to have a nervous breakdown that is.

  7. #17
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iris lilies View Post
    The book I reference in this thread talks about the startling LACK of romantic experience sexual experience if you will, with current teens and young people. The numbers of those with experience are way way down from decades ago. We can blame dependance on social media for that.
    Lack of experience? How can that be true? Can you expand on that?
    "Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it--every, every minute?" Emily Webb, Our Town
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  8. #18
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catherine View Post
    Lack of experience? How can that be true? Can you expand on that?
    Yes, I was surprised too. Reading directly from this book, page 23,

    Adolescents are far less likely to have had actual sex then the women of my generation were at their age or even to have proceeded through traditional bases. As Kate Julian observed in the Atlantic, we are in the midst of a “sex recession” especially severe among members of Gen Z. In 1994, 74% of 17-year-old women had had a “special romantic relationship in the past 18 months.“. In 2014, when the Pew Research Center asked 17-year-olds whether they’d ever ‘dated or hooked
    up with or otherwise had a romantic relationship with another person’ —seemingly a broader category than the earlier one —only 46% said yes.

    There is a whole host of things going on with adolescent Girls, including much higher rates of depression and anxiety. While they are intellectually knowledgeable about many variants of sexuality, gender, and life through the Internet, their in-real-life experience is extremely limited. When given the choice of a real life meeting with someone or a digital meeting, they will choose digital a great majority of the time.

    For me this puts into perspective somewhat the big drop in abortions among teenagers. We like to pat ourselves on the back about how education is helping but the fact is they aren’t even touching each other to get pregnant!
    Last edited by iris lilies; 3-28-21 at 7:10pm.

  9. #19
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catherine View Post
    My DIL's brother is a female-male trans. He transitioned after his mother died, and I don't know if that was intentional. But every time I look at him I see challenge and courage. The family is totally supportive, and he is now married and he and his wife are about to have a baby.

    I have to admit that I was raised SO, SO sheltered. My Catholic upbringing almost led me to an asexual path. I think gender identity questions transcend easy answers. This book is about female dysphoria, but what about males who have similar angst about their gender identity? It all seems messy, but messy seems better than where we were when everyone was in the closet.
    Well I definitely think that fluidity in gender and sexuality is a softer and more healthy approach than rigid boxes that people have to live in. But then I wonder why are these transitioning teens so focused on putting themselves in a box? Why are they so angrily insistent that they are the opposite sex? Can’t they just be who they are?


    You ask about male to female transitions. The book I’m reading doesn’t cover that but it does mention the fact that until this recent phenomenon of adolescent girls transitioning, the vast majority of teens identified with body dysphoria were male. It is the sudden gender switch that is one of the flags that caused the academic researcher, Lisa Littman, to study this issue.

  10. #20
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iris lilies View Post
    But then I wonder why are these transitioning teens so focused on putting themselves in a box? Why are they so angrily insistent that they are the opposite sex?
    That is a great question.
    "Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it--every, every minute?" Emily Webb, Our Town
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