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Thread: Irreversible Damage by Abigail Shrier

  1. #21
    Senior Member razz's Avatar
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    https://www.ranker.com/list/homosexu...ry/david-sharp
    I have learned to paste the link first because I, too often, forget to post it later.
    Not having examined gender issues at all as I generally just took each where they were at, I am examining historical records as I remember hearing many years ago that "heterosexual was for progeny and homosexual was for pleasure".

    The link above mentions a number of societies who considered homosexuality just a part of society until Christianity chose to judge and interpret it as a sin.

    Africa
    Before Christian ideas of morality were introduced to tribal African cultures in the late 1800s, there was little to no stigma attached to homosexuality. Most tribes had unique words for different LGBTQ+ individuals and practices, and many tribes shared the belief homosexuality was just something adolescents engaged in as natural part of the development process.
    Additionally, there are records of long-term sensual relationships between women in Lesotho called motsoalle that were celebrated alongside heterosexual pairings — up until the missionaries came in. Colonialism brought not just slavery, disease, and environmental exploitation, but also homophobia as well.

    Indigenous Americans, Pre-Colonialization
    The term "two-spirit" was introduced by indigenous Americans in 1990 as an umbrella term used to describe a long-existing caste of individuals who do not fit within traditional gender binaries. Many native tribes have recognized gender as fluid and have held specialized and even sacred roles in their cultures for two-spirit people, such as potters, matchmakers, storytellers, or oral historians.

    Would thoughtful exploration of options in the teen years help teens find themselves as the African model above suggests as one approach?

    Think that is about all that I wish to examine further so will leave this discussion to those better informed.
    As Cicero said, ďGratitude is not only the greatest of virtues, but the parent of all the others.Ē

  2. #22
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    But to be honest, comparing homosexuality to gender identity is apples to oranges. It's like confusing my DH with being Irish and not Scottish. (Don't do it!). I think IL's book is talking about gender identity. How do we decide on what bucket we're in? And if we feel that we have been biologically mis-assigned, what do we do? And what if we're wrong? What if our assumptions were not based on biology, but on cultural narrative?

    Not sure I got that right, but that's what I took the book to be about.
    "Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it--every, every minute?" Emily Webb, Our Town
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  3. #23
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    For me this puts into perspective somewhat the big drop in abortions among teenagers. We like to pat ourselves on the back about how education is helping but the fact is they aren’t even touching each other to get pregnant!
    their education probably told them it was the only 100% effective birth control, even if their education was a planned parenthood flyer.
    Trees don't grow on money

  4. #24
    Senior Member JaneV2.0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iris lilies View Post
    ...

    You ask about male to female transitions. The book Iím reading doesnít cover that but it does mention the fact that until this recent phenomenon of adolescent girls transitioning, the vast majority of teens identified with body dysphoria were male. It is the sudden gender switch that is one of the flags that caused the academic researcher, Lisa Littman, to study this issue.
    Am I the only one wondering how feminizing chemicals awash in the environment figure into this phenomenon?

  5. #25
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaneV2.0 View Post
    Am I the only one wondering how feminizing chemicals awash in the environment figure into this phenomenon?
    The current phenomenon is young women transitioning to male so I don’t think that’s the deal.

    As far as the young males transitioning to female, that seems to be a more stable percentage or at least is presented as something that stable. But then I don’t know, there are all those lady boys in Thailand and the Phillipines, so looks like cultural influences there have an effect. Something about that Y chromosome…

  6. #26
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catherine View Post
    But to be honest, comparing homosexuality to gender identity is apples to oranges. It's like confusing my DH with being Irish and not Scottish. (Don't do it!). I think IL's book is talking about gender identity. How do we decide on what bucket we're in? And if we feel that we have been biologically mis-assigned, what do we do? And what if we're wrong? What if our assumptions were not based on biology, but on cultural narrative?

    Not sure I got that right, but that's what I took the book to be about.
    I took razz’s post to be more of a philosophical point about cultures and sex/gender norms especially acceptance of same outside of norms. Relevant in a big picture way, but nothing about transitioning teens.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teacher Terry View Post
    I also feel that teens need to slow down and become older before making permanent decisions. So sorry Lladhl.
    Itís a tightrope you have to walk. Obviously you want to put off irreversible decisions as long as possible. I donít doubt there is an element of a sick faddishness involved. But years of breakdowns, self-harm, suicide attempts and inpatient stays argue pretty decisively too. There is no easy textbook answer, and anyone who says otherwise is selling something.

    Will I live the rest of my life worrying if we made the right decisions? Yes.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Teacher Terry's Avatar
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    I have always said that my kids have brought me some of my greatest joy and deepest pain. You never know if you made the right decision. You can only do your best at the time.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teacher Terry View Post
    I have always said that my kids have brought me some of my greatest joy and deepest pain. You never know if you made the right decision. You can only do your best at the time.
    It helps somewhat to have a kid whoís a better, braver, smarter person than you are.

  10. #30
    Senior Member CathyA's Avatar
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    I haven't read all of the responses, but I wanted to jump ahead and ask if the book brings up anything about the affects/effects of nature on an exploding population, that might bring about some attempts to curb population growth? I've often wondered if the dramatic increase in the gay/lesbian, etc. population was (unbeknownst to mankind) was nature's way to decrease the population. But.....in today's world it seems like gay/lesbian couples have figured out how to still have children by modern methods.
    I'm not judging any of these types of the population.....just wondering how nature plays into things........as it seems to always do.

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