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  1. #1
    Senior Member Yppej's Avatar
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    Original Sin

    If you accept the premise below (which I don't) do you believe in original sin?

    Premise - even if you are vaccinated you must wear a mask around other people or you are selfish and don't care if they die

    In the absence of mask mandates I have noticed most people in public, whether indoors or out, do not wear a mask. Does this mean most people are selfish and sinful? If you believe this, do you find it evidence of original sin?

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    I forget the name of the medieval rabbi who warned against trying to make God carry the burden of your obsessions.

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    Senior Member Yppej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LDAHL View Post
    I forget the name of the medieval rabbi who warned against trying to make God carry the burden of your obsessions.
    More like the devil than God.

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    It's purely social pressure.

    If you go out in public and feel like most of the people around you are wearing a mask, you'll probably wear one too, unless you specifically want to make a political point by not wearing one. If almost everyone you see is not wearing a mask, you probably won't wear one either, even if you think you should.

    In public or in private, if you say to yourself, "Most people like me do/don't wear a mask" you'll probably conform to what you think other "people like you" are doing, unless you have very strong convictions to the contrary.

    Original Sin: IMO "original sin" is real but misunderstood. We all commit the "original sin" the very first time we look at our loving parent, knowing they provide us with everything we need and we're totally dependent on them, and we defiantly say "NO!" anyway.

    We all do it. We all know it's a normal and necessary part of growing up. And most of us realize at some point that saying "no" when we ought to say "yes", or viceversa, is an unfortunate part of our ambiguous decision-making process because there are a lot of decisions where you can't make everybody, including yourself, happy.

    FWIW I believe all sin can be forgiven, and that's good, but to be fully effective forgiveness has to be accepted by the person who sinned (acceptance of responsibility). No one has ever been able to "take away your sin" by apologizing on your behalf, even if they willingly accept responsibility for what you did and allow themself to be punished for it. You personally have to regret what you did and accept responsibility for it, even if you never tell anyone that you know what you did was wrong. Example: A crewmember makes a careless mistake that causes damage. His supervisor accepts responsibility and is punished because the supervisor is responsible for making sure the crewmembers aren't going to make mistakes. The crewmember sinned, but was not punished for it. To be forgiven, the crewmember has to recognize his own guilt, even if he never admits to anyone else that he caused the damage.

    BTW: I was told in Sunday School that the word most commonly translated simply as "sin" is the Hebrew word "hata", which literally means "to go astray." Just as Jewish law, halakha, provides the proper "way" (or path) to live, sin involves straying from that path. Likewise, if you get lost in the woods or if you shoot an arrow at a target and miss, you have sinned. So the real question is: Did you sin on purpose? And are we as human beings even capable of never sinning on purpose?

    Last edited by GeorgeParker; 8-26-21 at 4:39pm. Reason: I sinned by making a typo ;-)

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    For what it's worth postscript:

    One of my many sins that I deeply regret is the fact that once when I was a very small child I accidentally broke something and another child was blamed for it. There were good logical reasons for that other child being automatically blamed and they were only given a brief scolding, because it was a very minor offense. But I've always felt guilty because I didn't speak up when I heard a that other child being scolded for something they didn't do.

    I don't beat myself up about it. (I've made much bigger mistakes in my life than that little act of childish cowardice.) But I do remember feeling totally awful about it for several weeks after it happened.

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    Senior Member Yppej's Avatar
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    I agree that masking is not a moral issue and failing to wear one is not a sin.

    I don't think opposition (saying no) is a sin in and of itself, because you could be opposing something bad, but was always taught as a child that selfishness is the original sin that is part of human nature.

    I guess you are not a Christian GeorgeParker because you think that Jesus cannot take die for your sins and take them away?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yppej View Post
    I guess you are not a Christian GeorgeParker because you think that Jesus cannot take die for your sins and take them away?
    Born and bred, baptized as a baby, church and Sunday school every week as a child, confirmation classes at the proper age, reaffirmed my confirmation vows by being rebaptized in my 40s, sang in the choir as an adult, and in my twenties I was a crucifer (literally "cross-bearer", the person who carries a processional cross in front of the choir as they come down the asile.)

    Jesus didn't "take away our sins". He offered himself as a sacrifice and allowed himself to be punished in our place, just as the supervisor I mentioned took upon himself the guilt of what his crewmember had actually done.

    Theologically, Jesus "took upon himself responsibility for the sins of all humans", but only we can "take away our sins" by asking for and accepting forgiveness. For me to explain it any more clearly would require a lengthy discussion of biblical texts and various books written by C.S. Lewis (specifically C.S. Lewis because he did such a good job of expressing difficult theological concepts in plain, highschool-level english.)

    OTOH I'm eclectic enough to believe that God speaks to all people in whatever way they understand him. Whatever we may or may not believe about Jesus, everyone who seeks approval, forgiveness, or consolation from a higher spiritual power is just as much a child of God as any Christian saint, because "we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" https://connectusfund.org/romans-3-2...e-glory-of-god

    Behold, my son was lost is now found. He was dead and is now alive again. (very loose paraphrase of Luke 15:11-32)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yppej View Post
    I don't think opposition (saying no) is a sin in and of itself, because you could be opposing something bad
    I don't think opposition is a sin either. In many cases it is a virtue. When I said:

    We all commit the "original sin" the very first time we look at our loving parent, knowing they provide us with everything we need and we're totally dependent on them, and we defiantly say "NO!" anyway.

    I was talking about the first time a child rejects what a parent wants to give them just because they can. That isn't logical opposition, it's just a toddler saying "I'm my own person and I want to find out how much power I have."

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    The whole concept of sin in a pandemic ... makes little sense. There are behaviors that are more likely to spread or not spread the pandemic. The problem is sin is an absolutist framing, but it's a virus, it's not about absolutes but reducing risks.

    Few behaviors that might in theory spread a pandemic are behaviors people will entirely abstain from after the vaccine (socializing is the big one) even though there is a risk of even the vaccinated spreading (but has to be less than the risk of the unvaccinated spreading, infectious for less long etc., I know, I know we don't have ALL the data).

    Now one can also say public policy handled the pandemic badly. That many in power made the wrong choice. And I definitely think they should have avoided hospitals becoming overwhelmed etc..
    If you want something to get done, ask a busy person. If you want them to have a nervous breakdown that is.

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    Senior Member rosarugosa's Avatar
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    I don't believe in the concept of sin.

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