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Thread: “It Will Cost Nothing”

  1. #11
    Senior Member Rogar's Avatar
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    Certainly a bit of wordsmithing for marketing purposes. If the issue is about who will pay, I'm not a big fan of cutting taxes on the rich while at the same time paying for government services and operations through a growing government debt, which we've have seen previously.

  2. #12
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    There are certain situations where I think the fate of one of our citizens affects us all. I have to admit I've been doing a lot of thinking about how neither party is serving us well. I represent liberal thought, but at the same time, I see the pitfalls.
    The pitfalls at this point seem largely illusory. I'd like someone to point out something with all that much reality. I mean does some identity politics stuff go off the deep end? Sure, but enough about twitter or even what happens at some university as it's largely inconsequential for people's lives. It doesn't mean I approve of it.

    Is something here or there subject to corruption or abuse? Sure. You need a very informed and active citizenry to hold government to account if that happens but speaking local government, that's very hard to produce in many parts of the u.s. for cultural reasons (and everyone is also busy with everything else - you need housewives or retired people almost). And political polarization doesn't help there - people that are opposed to safety nets on principle aren't going to be useful there, you need people who believe in them but don't want them corrupted by widespread fraud. That's what social democracy takes. Meanwhile liberals are so tired of fighting decades worth of attack on the minimal u.s. safety net - some of which have succeed many of which have largely failed like constant attempts to cut social security and medicare, that they hardly want to hear it. All one hears is: "I want to eliminate the safety net blah blah".

    For instance there has been known theft from the unemployment system in many states including here. That is bad. But you just can't argue from that that there shouldn't be an unemployment system. It just does not follow. But that's the kind of fraud you actually can in theory crack down on, someone said they looked for a job this week and didn't, is just not.
    If you want something to get done, ask a busy person. If you want them to have a nervous breakdown that is.

  3. #13
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    So, by holding out and not addressing the debt ceiling..... what is the advantage? Seems like there is no choice but to raise the ceiling as was done with trump and those before him. The other alternative? ... already see the stock market is down almost 500 points...

  4. #14
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frugal-one View Post
    The other alternative?
    We could ask our government to operate within its budget like the rest of us.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar View Post
    Certainly a bit of wordsmithing for marketing purposes. If the issue is about who will pay, I'm not a big fan of cutting taxes on the rich while at the same time paying for government services and operations through a growing government debt, which we've have seen previously.
    Yes, why should the left confine themselves to the rigid ethical standards of a late night infomercial? There has certainly been no dearth of wordsmithing and transcendence of mundane factuality connected with this orgy of expenditure. Who knew everything that creeps upon the Earth was infrastructure? That there are no expenditures, only investments? That whether it’s an expense or not depends on where you mail the bill? That spreading a few trillion around would serve to lower inflation?

  6. #16
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    We could ask our government to operate within its budget like the rest of us.
    That no country does that, every country has a debt, might be a clue that it makes no sense. China? Yep. Canada? Yep. Switzerland? Yep. Germany? Yep. Denmark? Yep. Japan? Yep. So there is no "like the rest of us" model to choose in reality. Which might give one pause. Okay maybe it could work in theory, I'm able to consider theoretical models but I would both have to be persuaded it is both possible and desirable, because not a lot of examples ... Russia is one of the countries with the lowest debt.

    Now, I don't doubt the U.S. had advantages in being able to issue debt that some don't. And the real question is just if the interest can be serviced.
    If you want something to get done, ask a busy person. If you want them to have a nervous breakdown that is.

  7. #17
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ApatheticNoMore View Post
    So there is no "like the rest of us" model to choose in reality. Which might give one pause.
    I think all 50 US States and Puerto Rico have some sort of balanced budget requirement, most of which are memorialized within their individual state constitutions and the remainder through legislative fiat. Our federal government could do the same as long as there were provisions allowing for excess expenditures during periods of national emergency.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  8. #18
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    Those are states not countries (I suppose one could make the argument for being states for EU nations, but they have debt).
    If you want something to get done, ask a busy person. If you want them to have a nervous breakdown that is.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Rogar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LDAHL View Post
    Yes, why should the left confine themselves to the rigid ethical standards of a late night infomercial? There has certainly been no dearth of wordsmithing and transcendence of mundane factuality connected with this orgy of expenditure. Who knew everything that creeps upon the Earth was infrastructure? That there are no expenditures, only investments? That whether it’s an expense or not depends on where you mail the bill? That spreading a few trillion around would serve to lower inflation?
    I don't think the left has exclusive rights to soft selling their programs under certain false or weak promises. I can remember when 45 promised his tax cuts and trade deals would eliminate or greatly reduce the national debt by fueling the economy. But somehow the debt grew to record levels. I remember the delusion of weapons of mass destruction. It's politics as usual.

    Whether the proposed budget has within it hidden bloat is probably a separate issue on it's own, but at least this time there is some sort of tax increases to balance spending. Or that's the story I'm getting. I haven't looked at specifics, but aside from infrastructure, I'd like to see some of the programs that were cut under T, like climate research, cleaner energy, EPA, education, NIH etc. restored to the levels that make us a country focused on future prosperity instead of immediate wallet gratification. Part of that needs to include focus on the debt issue, too. And someone is going to have to pay for it.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    We could ask our government to operate within its budget like the rest of us.
    Too late. trump raised the debt so the debt ceiling was brought up last term and it was approved. Why is it different now?

    Hope it went well today for you and your family, Alan! Was thinking of you.

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