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Thread: Secession

  1. #1
    Senior Member Yppej's Avatar
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    Secession

    If the purpose is not for something immoral like preserving slavery, do you believe parts of the US should be able to secede? Some in New Hampshire think so.

    https://www.sentinelsource.com/news/...f951c3312.html

  2. #2
    Senior Member bae's Avatar
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    I believe peoples have the right to self-determination.

    https://unpo.org/article/4957

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    In the American context, I think most secession talk is purely performative. Sort of like those people who promise to leave the country if this or that bad man gets elected but never make good on it.

    One reason I wish people would take federalism more seriously is that there would be greater differences in how the various states governed themselves, absent a continuous flow of rules imposed from the capital. You could vote with your feet and have it mean something. No need to found Upper Trumpistan or the Democratic Peoplesí Republic of Utopia.

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    Senior Member jp1's Avatar
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    The problem with the idea of secession is that our major political differences that rise to the level of calls for secession are not statewide differences but generally differences of urban vs rural in the same way that we donít have red and blue states. We have red rural areas and blue urban areas and whether a state is red or blue is determined by the ratio or rural/urban. Sure there are blue rural people and red urban people but overall the difference is pretty stark.

    Apparently there is a movement in rural southeast Oregon to try and have that part of the state given to Idaho. (With a carve out for blue Bend Oregon to stay in Oregon)

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    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp1 View Post
    The problem with the idea of secession is that our major political differences that rise to the level of calls for secession are not statewide differences but generally differences of urban vs rural in the same way that we don’t have red and blue states. We have red rural areas and blue urban areas and whether a state is red or blue is determined by the ratio or rural/urban. Sure there are blue rural people and red urban people but overall the difference is pretty stark.

    Apparently there is a movement in rural southeast Oregon to try and have that part of the state given to Idaho. (With a carve out for blue Bend Oregon to stay in Oregon)
    The urban/rural divide is interesting to me. I've always thought that it wouldn't be quite as stark if the urban folks wouldn't expend so much political capital trying to control everyone else. I've also long believed that the old adage "Good fences make good neighbors" is probably the basis of all secession talk.

    Rural folks are mostly not interested in governmental intrusion of their beliefs and everyday lives and many urban folks spend a lot of time trying to convert them through institutions such as government and media. It must be terribly frustrating that it doesn't work and is probably the reason Republicans are generally happier people than Democrats.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

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    Senior Member jp1's Avatar
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    It could also be that urban people are more likely to see the benefit of government because they are likely to see it in action where rural people are much less likely to see a whole lot of direct benefit from any government program or action. An example. Rural people are likely better prepared to fight a fire if it should break out than urban people are. Yes, we have fire extinguishers in our house and garage, but if a 'real' fire breaks out I will get the hell out of the house and dial 911. Our fire department is about a 3 minute drive from here. If the fire department is a half hour or whatever away and volunteer so the firefighters are scattered all over, as is the case with a lot of rural people, that's probably not a good plan.

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    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jp1 View Post
    It could also be that urban people are more likely to see the benefit of government because they are likely to see it in action where rural people are much less likely to see a whole lot of direct benefit from any government program or action. An example. Rural people are likely better prepared to fight a fire if it should break out than urban people are. Yes, we have fire extinguishers in our house and garage, but if a 'real' fire breaks out I will get the hell out of the house and dial 911. Our fire department is about a 3 minute drive from here. If the fire department is a half hour or whatever away and volunteer so the firefighters are scattered all over, as is the case with a lot of rural people, that's probably not a good plan.
    Yes, great example, especially on a local level. It's too bad the idea of federalizing things best kept on a local level seems to be the primary goal of progressivism.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

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    Senior Member jp1's Avatar
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    If one looks at all the government programs that truly help urban people it becomes easy to see why urban people generally don't buy into ronald reagan's "the scariest words ever are I'm from the government and I'm here to help" idea. We see all the good that can be done for people (even if not for ourselves specifically) and don't particularly feel bad about paying the taxes for them.

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    I wonder how much of our present imbecility can be attributed to the misuse of graphic software. If a given party achieves 52% of the vote in any given election at the county or state level, even in a low turnout year, itís colored red or blue. I think that makes our differences seem starker than they really are. Sort of like the oversimplified racial reductionism people are trying to pry us apart with at so many levels. You lose a lot of granularity, and are subject to ridiculous biases and assumptions when relating to others on a group basis.

    If ever weíre to see the breakup so many pretend to desire, it would probably require purges, partitions and forced mass movements to make it a practical reality.

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    Senior Member bae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LDAHL View Post
    If ever we’re to see the breakup so many pretend to desire, it would probably require purges, partitions and forced mass movements to make it a practical reality.
    My neighbor grew up in Serbia during the Yugoslav Wars. We really really don't want this here.

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