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Thread: Disdain for "the poors"

  1. #21
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catherine View Post
    The problems, as I see it, IL:

    1. Healthcare doesn't have to be such a major expense. I've done pricing studies for pharmaceuticals and medical devices. The research is designed to test price sensitivity. In other words, it doesn't matter how much they've invested in the development of the product, they will push the price up until people squeak.

    2. In a typical "what the market will bear" scenario, that would be fine, but the problem in this case is, people don't squeak, because a) there are other people who profit from the high prices and b) there are so many layers between the health care professional who prescribes and the patient who takes that the impact of the price is diluted.

    3. The employer-based healthcare model simply makes no sense and leaves a lot of people without insurance. To your point above, why don't they sign up? Well, there's the example I gave of the woman who couldn't work but needed the insurance. Are you saying she wasn't a responsible mother, even though she was working two jobs at the time of the diagnosis? There are certainly people who have been cavalier about signing up--typically young people who think they're invincible, but there are resources for them.

    4. The structures that built this system that gives us the dubious honor of having the highest healthcare costs per capita in the world, but with less than stellar health outcomes is to blame--not the poor people who wind up sick or hurt.
    I believe you about the Market pricing studies, that just makes sense.

    The mother who has breast cancer has options. You did not mention them.

    Yes, she has to go on Medicaid. We had a cancer victim here on this board years ago who said Medicaid cancer coverage is stellar. Medicaid coverage is attractive for at least one multi millionaire who used to hang out on this board, and I suspect more.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Tradd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iris lilies View Post
    I agree that health insurance tied to insurance is just… Weird. But because we have other avenues of getting health insurance now Due to the ACA which I thought was supposed to solve everyone’s problem, why do people choose not to take it?
    Maybe they still can’t afford it, even with the increased subsidies?

  3. #23
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tradd View Post
    Maybe they still can’t afford it, even with the increased subsidies?
    So, people get to determine what they can afford? President Obama doesn’t get to determine that? That is a revolutionary thought!

    Yet, the ACA law dictates they have to have insurance. What a conundrum. Not only do they have to have insurance, they have to have insurance that provides a, B, C, D etc.

    As for the cost of individual healthcare treatment, yes it’s out of control and it’s crazy. The average person can’t wrap their heads around that nor can I. I don’t know what it “should” cost. I just know that we have some of the best treatment centers if not THE best in the world. The fact that some outcomes are bad… That has a lot to do with the populace that’s being treated. Obesity, poverty, those who ignore good health initiatives, etc. all have a major affect on outcomes.


    And certainly it’s true that not everyone gets the same level of treatment. That’s just not going to happen. There is a standard of care that most people do get. Others get care above and beyond that. That is a model I can live with.

  4. #24
    Senior Member flowerseverywhere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iris lilies View Post
    I will remind you that President Obama pushed through his Affordable Care insurance plan because it was affordable, it is even in the name of the Act!. Everyone could afford it. Premiums are based on a percentage of your income.

    He said:
    “…millions of Americans who don’t have health insurance because they’ve been priced out of the market or because they’ve been denied access because of a preexisting condition, they will finally be able to buy quality, affordable health insurance. (Applause.) In five days. (Applause.) “

    So it’s unclear to me after that giant piece of legislation that changed everyone’s lives, not just those who didn’t/don’t have insurance, why people don’t have insurance.Why is that? Could it be they don’t chose to responsibly cover their families with insurance?

    I just heard about an Instagram influencer whose child became very ill and he was taken via LifeFlight to a specialist hospital. Life flights are $35,000, just the tip of the iceberg for that hospital bill. They have no insurance yet CHIPS insurance for children and their state is FREE. It costs nothing. This lack of insurance is a CHOICE she made.

    Congress is always making laws and presidents are always signing bills to make things better and affordable, and many are always complaining because things are not better or affordable.

    I guarantee you that universal healthcare will come with people who think it’s not enough, people who are unhappy because the government lead services they get are not good enough, etc. etc.


    You mentioned up thread Joe Biden signing yet another drug bill to make things yet again affordable. So it’s finally affordable now and there will be no more drug bills? I do hope so. That’s a relief that we won’t have to hear any more complaints about expensive drugs.

    The ACA at least made healthcare available but affording it is out of many peoples reach. it certainly is not perfect. I'm still waiting for Trumps health plan that would Cover more, cost less and is coming in two weeks. Or the replace part of repeal and replace we heard about for years. Believe me, if anyone has a better solution for the healthcare system here please tell us. I see no solution except to make only the upper middle class able to afford the best healthcare.

  5. #25
    Senior Member flowerseverywhere's Avatar
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    Tradd, I agree many many people regardless of political leanings are very callous towards the poor. Regardless of how you ended up in trouble many will consider it your fault.

  6. #26
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iris lilies View Post
    I believe you about the Market pricing studies, that just makes sense.

    The mother who has breast cancer has options. You did not mention them.

    Yes, she has to go on Medicaid. We had a cancer victim here on this board years ago who said Medicaid cancer coverage is stellar. Medicaid coverage is attractive for at least one multi millionaire who used to hang out on this board, and I suspect more.
    Two things here:

    1) 8% of people are uninsured for various reasons (an all-time low), according to this article: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/...n-all-time-low
    Only 2% of children are uninsured.

    2) This article talks about who is uninsured https://www.kff.org/uninsured/issue-...ed-population/

    Who are the uninsured?
    Most uninsured people have at least one worker in the family. Families with low incomes are more likely to be uninsured. Reflecting the more limited availability of public coverage in some states, adults are more likely to be uninsured than children. People of color are at higher risk of being uninsured than non-Hispanic White people.

    Why are people uninsured?
    Even under the ACA, many uninsured people cite the high cost of insurance as the main reason they lack coverage. In 2019, 73.7% of uninsured adults said that they were uninsured because the cost of coverage was too high. Many people do not have access to coverage through a job, and some people, particularly poor adults in states that did not expand Medicaid, remain ineligible for financial assistance for coverage. Additionally, undocumented immigrants are ineligible for Medicaid or Marketplace coverage.


    As for the woman I mentioned who has "options" within the boundaries of being devastatingly sick, losing her income sources, and having to keep feeding her kids, Medicaid is joint State/Federal body with the State having a lot of influence on eligibility adjudication. Some states are better than others. And trust me, that woman was doing whatever she could to continue to be a responsible person, keep her job, keep her insurance. In fact, her case was so sad, one of the other cancer victims in the focus group donated her compensation for being in the group to this woman. I'm not sure what her eligibility status is in her state.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere View Post
    The ACA at least made healthcare available but affording it is out of many peoples reach. it certainly is not perfect. I'm still waiting for Trumps health plan that would Cover more, cost less and is coming in two weeks. Or the replace part of repeal and replace we heard about for years. Believe me, if anyone has a better solution for the healthcare system here please tell us. I see no solution except to make only the upper middle class able to afford the best healthcare.
    You can make fun of Donald Trump if you like, and Lord knows he’s a figure of comedy and much else, but he removed the ACA individual penalty. So it might be law that everyone is supposed to have health insurance, but if they don’t have it they didn’t have to pay that penalty.

    Doesn’t that help the poor people we are talking about?

    And while I do not like at all, AT ALL, Presidents flicking their pen to do things like this, his deletion of the ACA non-payment penalty removed, for me, the major obstacle of that giant piece of legislation. The only reason ACA was found constitutional is because of the “out “ of the required penalty.

    President Joe Biden has not re-instituted the IRS penalty for individuals not having health insurance. Evidently he doesn’t like following the law either?

  8. #28
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerseverywhere View Post
    Tradd, I agree many many people regardless of political leanings are very callous towards the poor. Regardless of how you ended up in trouble many will consider it your fault.

    That is far too simplistic a characterization, “your fault.”

    I see many people in situations that are unfortunate, and they are there because of life choices. Sometimes it is a series of life choices they made that land them in a not so great place.


    And with the fickle hand of fate, some people can make the same set of life choices and be perfectly OK, they don’t get caught up in the unfortunate consequences that others do, and sometimes that is just dumb luck.

    I do think the formula is far less simple now for reaching a stable middle-class existence, but it still is wise to not reproduce extensively with a spouse who is unreliable. In other words, don’t have a bunch of kids with a deadbeat dad or a deadbeat mom.It is wise to put off childbearing for a while and get some sort of skill or education that makes one employable. This is good advice for both sexes, not just men or women.

    And then take reasonable care of your health, and that is a good formula for weathering the storms life throws at us.

    Some people are just more healthy than others throughout their lives. We don’t get to choose many of the health challenges thrown our way, it is a crapshoot.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Tradd's Avatar
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    IL, I’ve seen too many senior women suddenly single when their husbands throw them to the curb for someone younger. Not really a damn thing they can do about that. Most of the cases it was a surprise.

    The pandemic did a number on a lot of people. If you worked in a restaurant, you were screwed. In the Chicago area, a LOT of mom and pop restaurants have closed. There’s always fast food, which is hiring for as much as $20/hour here and they offer getting paid the same day you work.

  10. #30
    Senior Member iris lilies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tradd View Post
    IL, I’ve seen too many senior women suddenly single when their husbands throw them to the curb for someone younger. Not really a damn thing they can do about that. Most of the cases it was a surprise.

    The pandemic did a number on a lot of people. If you worked in a restaurant, you were screwed. In the Chicago area, a LOT of mom and pop restaurants have closed. There’s always fast food, which is hiring for as much as $20/hour here and they offer getting paid the same day you work.
    Yes the restaurant workers and owners of restaurants certainly got screwed by government mandate shut downs. Fortunately, everyone is begging for employees now. The job market is great!

    as for senior women thrown to the curb and through divorce, sure, but that’s what divorce laws cover. They get some assets. It is true that they may not be able to live the million dollar lifestyle they lived with their big bucks earning husband, but they will have a perfectly acceptable lifestyle.

    For the senior age women who get divorced when there’s not a whole lot of household monies to divide, I would say well why aren’t there? Why isn’t she out there working to build up household monies if the kids are gone?

    Divorce reduces everyone’s Lifestyle, there’s just no way around it.

    One of the golden rules for building wealth from The Millionaire Next Door is: get married, don’t get divorced.

    The divorce rate among college educated people who married after age 25 is quite a bit better than other demographics. It’s still high, but studies are showing that even in those cases of divorce, the joint parenting agreements are more successful.

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