Just a quick question I would like to throw out there.....I have been reading about this (movement?) lately and I am wondering - does anyone think that these protesters can raise any awareness, make any difference, or change anything? Don't get me wrong, I am personally behind them 100%, I just wonder if they can affect any change, or barring that, what their motivations are? What do you'all think? Rob
I'm with Rich Lowry on this one. It is a:
giant, ideologically charged, post-adolescent sleepover complete with face paint and pizza deliveries.
"Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein
Sounds like the tea party then, only not as many square hats maybe. Square hats make one ahem very sophisticated and mature, ahem, ahem.
Trees don't grow on money
It's possible. We demonstrated back in the seventies, and many of us believe it helped get us out of Viet Nam. I'd like to see an American Solidarity movement similar to Poland's with enough numbers to apply pressure to the Job Exporters.
Yes. Here is how I think it works, people with similar problems with the existing system get together. Synergy, idea generation, potential solutions. People really can't do much as isolated individuals (just live their lives), but working together ... a lot can be done.Just a quick question I would like to throw out there.....I have been reading about this (movement?) lately and I am wondering - does anyone think that these protesters can raise any awareness, make any difference, or change anything?
Also protest movements are one of the few things that can change the political situation. Electing a new twiddledee or tweedledum is not doing it (clearly - the failure of Obama illustrates that). But putting constant pressure on existing politicians through protests etc. might.
I think it's possible yea. But even if you assume the worst stereotyped characatured possible motivations. They are just there for a party (and not even a political party but just um a party, as in bring the beer) Ok EVEN THAT would speak volumes about the emptiness, lonliness, etc. of modern life. Aren't there any other good social opportunities? I mean really. But of course the sterotype is just that and there are of course also genuine political greivances.I just wonder if they can affect any change, or barring that, what their motivations are?
What I see as dangers: too much ideology or partisanship too soon (it's fine to want to do somethinig about money in politics but if that just turns into - so therefore vote for this party - it is a waste of potential), cooption of the movement by many monied ideological forces, etc. And yea for all my mockery I think even the tea party was coopted to some degree.
Trees don't grow on money
It's worth pointing out that this country was founded by a small, brave group of people dedicated to throwing off rule by oligarchy. We do those founders a disservice when we don't vote, don't protest, don't register demands of those who represent us, when we don't participate at all. The vacuum we leave by shirking our duty as citizens will certainly be filled by a new oligarchy, better funded even than the last.
The difference between this protest (and similair ones here in "Occupy L.A.") is that they are too unfocused. With the vietnam protests you had a VERY focused group who wanted only one thing and worked toward that one thing - end the war. They had facts, statistics, and the strong emotional support of a large number of people thru out the country and the world. Emotions who's flames were fanned night after night with pictures of the new combat dead on the news. This group has no such cohesion and their demands are so scattered and unrealistic that it would be hard for the average person - who may actually agree with much of what they say - to take them seriously. They need focus, leadership, and realistic goals to have any impact. At this point I think they are doing more harm then good for furthering their goals. They come across almost like the WTO anarchists without the violence - just disgruntled kids looking to stir things up just for the heck of it.
Last edited by Spartana; 10-5-11 at 1:46pm.
totally disagree, spartana.
in the 60s/70s when folks protested, they had one thing to protest -- the war.
the problems we are facing today are far more complex -- it's a constellation of problems that is all about corruption of our government by moneyed forces. this plays out in the corrupt political process, the fact that our transition to a post-fossil-fuel economy is happening so slowly, the fact that the middle class is disappearing while corporations make record profits, the fact that healthcare gatekeepers are far more interested in taking folks' money than in curing them ... it's not just one issue that can be boiled down to one slogan that will fit on one sign.
i do wish that the protesters would take more care with their appearance, though. the thing that made MLK-era protests so effective was that middle america could identify with the protesters. that's where i believe these folks are missing their mark. i'm a sympathetic supporter, and still i want to punch white kids with dreadlocks in the face.
Wear the Shift: Dresses for everyone!
When the Tea Party first started, they were not always focused, different groups of them went off in different directions, but slowly, they began to coalesce when some big money began backing them, Fox News began promoting the gatherings and giving them legitimacy, etc. It has made them powerful, although in the process they may have lost something, too. It remains to be seen.
I'm sure many in the Tea Party cringed at the racist signs, the pictures of our President as an African witch doctor with a bone through his nose, and elderly people screaming about getting government out of their Medicare, just as we are kind of cringing at some of the young people who are presenting less than a serious appearance in these protests. But........
Both groups are actually talking about the same "elephant" ( no pun intended). The middle class in this country is feeling besieged. Standards of living are slipping, jobs are being outsourced, even good jobs for educated people who have never really been the target of mass layoffs before, globalization has changed business and multinational corporations chase the profits, wherever in the world they can be made, with little concern for how it affects American workers, so long as there is a rising middle class somewhere else anxious for their products.
Structural change has occurred, and while the Tea Party folks and these young people doing the occupying of Wall Street are both feeling the same inchoate grievances, both feeling as though the middle class in this country has been sold down the river by the forces in power (only differing in looking around them and having some different ideas as to who and what is at fault).
But they, all of them, DO make up that 99%, and the top few percent who have been consolidating power, buying politicians, getting laws and regulations made in their favor, exercising greed run amuck can only keep on so long as the 99% is kept divided, given scapegoats to chase, and fighting each other. Once that 99% of Americans, of all political persuasions, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., (whatever labels keep us apart), recognize that they still DO hold the power, because they are many and the richest and most powerful are few, well....Katy bar the door, because we may manage to take back our country.
BUT....it remains to be seen. It remains to be seen whether this movement will coalesce, whether money and support will go to them, whether they can manage to make common cause with others of the 99%, such as the Tea Party, or whether the powerful will succeed in sowing division among the various groups of people who make up that 99% or not. It's really up to all of us, ordinary people. Left, right, conservative, liberal, Democratic, Republican, straight, gay, black, white, Hispanic or anything else.....it's OUR republic, if we're strong enough to keep it.
If not, the process will continue, inequality scores will resemble those of Third World countries even more (they are already far closer to Third World statistics than those of the other developed Western democracies), and our middle class will continue to shrink, the top few percent will consolidate even more power and wealth, folks in the middle class will lose their hold and slip downward toward and then into an underclass, which will become much larger and even more powerless......
It's really our choice of what we want our country to be. JMHO
edited for danged typos...... ;-(
Last edited by loosechickens; 10-5-11 at 2:56pm.
Originally Posted by madgeylou
True. That's why I think it's even MORE important now to have a very cohesive focus on the issues they are protesting. Back during the Vietnam war everyone knew exactly what the issues were and how they would go about enacting a change. There was no or little guess work. In this protest, with SO many issues involved all at the same time - and many that don't work in harmony with each other IMHO - it is much more vital to focus on a few of the more important issues rather than everything they can think of. As far as their appearence, yeah probably not helping much :-)! But I think the thing that has the most negative impact is just the over abundance of "issues" that they have - and that are written on their signs. It seems to cover everything imaginable. Very scattered, very ineffective when it COULD be a great motivater for change IMHO. It needs leadership and direction.
Last edited by Spartana; 10-5-11 at 3:45pm.
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