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Thread: Happiness and society

  1. #11
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    I read that book too and found it very interesting. I thought Denmark sounded like a Your Money or your Life utopia.

    I doubt the USAn is capable of living happily amounst ourselves.
    Last edited by Aqua Blue; 10-16-11 at 10:55am. Reason: added last paragraph.

  2. #12
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    Yea I have heard the Japanese commit suicide more not because they are unhappier but because they have a culture with a tradition of "honorable suicide" or what have you. I don't know.

    Anti-depressant use is another measure of how happy a country is IMO. It is off the charts high in the U.S.A..

    A few things they showed was how all careers are considered equal, whether a doctor or garbage man, you were respected.
    + 1 Love it. The problem is the tendency of people to equate money with worth and it's BS. What a career pays is just a function of relative demand and scarcity for a particular skill (supply and demand yes), plus any other pressures than can be brought to bear. (haha, the scarcity is often manufactured, many a career out there is right now passing laws to make their skills legally more required and legally more scarce - I've seen it in many careers I've explored). But anyway any way you slice it, pay is a measure of supply and demand, not a measure of moral worth.

    You could leave your baby in a stroller outside of a shop and not worry about someone kidnapping it. People joined groups and clubs (one was a 'laughing club').
    love it
    Trees don't grow on money

  3. #13
    Senior Member catherine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pony mom View Post
    I saw a segment of 20/20 or Dateline a year or two ago about Denmark and their state of happiness. A few things they showed was how all careers are considered equal, whether a doctor or garbage man, you were respected. You could leave your baby in a stroller outside of a shop and not worry about someone kidnapping it. People joined groups and clubs (one was a 'laughing club').

    Despite having gloomy weather most times of the year, they were a happy bunch.
    Interesting because that ties in with redfox's post about Stress: Portrait of a Killer which makes the point that the lower you are on a social hierarchy the more chronic stress you have. This hypothesis was tested both among primates as well as among the British Civil Service workers, where there is a very structured hierarchy.

    So, if no job is deemed better or higher up than another, it makes sense there's less stress.

    Just a note: I've heard that the Scandinavian suicide rate is tied to the very short periods of sunlight in the winter. Not sure if it's true, but it may be more due to SAD than social causes.
    Last edited by catherine; 10-16-11 at 12:11pm.
    "Do any human beings ever realize life while they live it--every, every minute?" Emily Webb, Our Town
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  4. #14
    Senior Member HappyHiker's Avatar
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    Just finished reading an enthralling book I'd like to recommend highly.

    It's entitled: The Age of Empathy: Nature's Lessons for a Kinder Society. The author, Frans De Waal is one of the nation's premier primatologists and is`a professor of psychology and director of the Living Links Center at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center at Emory University in Atlanta (that's a mouthful).

    His book is a rich and fascinating exploration of human behavior based on some of our closest animal relatives--Chimps-- while also providing commentary on today's society and how it's failing to meet our hard-wired, daily human needs.

    On page 221, this just leaped out at me and our discussion here:

    "A society based purely on selfish motives and market forces may produce wealth, yet it can't produce the unity and mutual trust that make life worthwhile."

    Voila!

    I highly recommend this book--he's a lovely writer and the primate behavior sections are amazing...who knew how intelligent our ancestors are? I sure didn't.
    peaceful, easy feeling

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkytoe View Post
    I know the conservatives among board posters will call it socialism but I have to wonder how nice it would be for all citizens not to have to worry about things like huge student loans for nominal education, lack of insurance and quality in retirement as we do.
    I won't presume to speak for any of the other right-wingers here, but IMO this, like almost everything else, is a matter of degree. Some people would be happy to ratchet up to a 70% tax level to receive all the services provided in Denmark from the government and some people would rather go shopping in the free market because we think the government is not an efficient middle man in such transactions.

    As pleasant as life in Denmark sounds we have to remember it is apples to oranges to compare it to the US. Denmark has 5.5 million people, very little ethnic diversity, a workforce of around 3 million, a GDP of $300 billion, 16,000+ square miles of land, etc. The USA has 310 million people, is the most ethnically diverse nation on the planet, has a work force of over 230 million, a GDP of over $14 Trillion, 3.8 million square miles of land, etc. While I will agree that it would do us some good to study, and in some cases emulate, what works in Denmark, I don't think trying to overlay their pattern on our cloth would work.

    When we're talking about various levels of government control in services it takes a lot of digging to uncover true costs. The OP did mention student loans which I find interesting. If you take the simple 70% tax rate quoted in the OP and multiply that out over a life time of work then take the percentage of that which the government of Denmark dedicates to education you would come up with a number. In the US, if you go to school for X number of years and add up what you spent to get there you also come up with a number. Which do you suppose is lower? My guess is that its almost always going to be cheaper in the US, but maybe its easier to manage (or swallow) in Denmark since its amortized over a lifetime. The part that gets me is that in the US if you don't go to college you won't have student loans. You incur the costs, but also reap the benefits. If you live in Denmark and don't go to college you're still paying. There is a legit argument that the society still benefits so you're be making a sacrifice for the good of the whole, but I'm not sure that would make me happy.

  6. #16
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    having been to scandinavia many times (and finland), i ahve to say that it is not a boring place.

    day one, danes welcomed us. people invited us into their homes in multiple ways.

    First, danes often have a spare room in their homes (families will crowd into fewer rooms because they seem to be "more comfortable that way") and that spare room is often rented out to visitors for a very small fee. As in, seriously, a beautiful, simple room and breakfast for $12 per person. You can't beat it! We stayed with a family of 6 who were living in under 300 sq ft, and we had the largest room in the house!

    Second, we met a young woman and her boyfriend on the train, and they were going to grab some stuff at her place in Copenhagen before heading out to the countryside on a holiday. They suggested that we stay in her appartment while she was away for a week. For free. She just asked that we vacuum the floor before we left. She took us to her place, handed over the keys, and that was that. We bought flowers for her for the day she returned, and we are still pen-pals and on FB.

    Third, we met a shop owner and had the BEST chat about all kinds of awesome things, and she invited us to her home for dinner. We then went back to the free apartment, and she said "come back tomorrow, my friends and I meet for brunch. Bring a plate!" so i made a quiche overnight, and the next morning, went back to her place. Several friends and family had gathered in the courtyard of her apartment building, and there must have been about 50 people there. Everyone was welcoming and great.

    One of the families that we met was going to the countryside where they were staying at a friend's vacation home. They asked us to join them, to show us "some danish fun." It was entirely free, though we insisted on helping with groceries. They picked us up from the apartment (at that point our friend was coming back the next day, so we left it a day early), drove us to the countryside, bought us ice cream along the way, shared a picnic (we had brought a bit of fruit, cheese, bread, and hard boiled eggs), and spent 4 days at the house with them -- having a grand time.

    also on our travels, we got caught in a small town, having missed our bus, and night falling. we had no idea what to do, as there were only about 4-5 houses in town. we thought we would just sleep at the bus stop, which was literally a pole with a sign next to a tree. I figured we'd probably be warm enough together, with what we had with us. About an hour of waiting at the bus stop and looking to settle in for the night, an old man approached us. He didn't speak english, but he beckoned us to come with him.

    he took us to his house, and apparently all the neighbors came. none spoke english, but they were singing to us and sharing food, and ultimately, he showed us to a spare room and the bathroom. we were given accommodation for the night, breakfast too, and he got us to the bus on time!

    In sweden, we encountered the exact same hospitality -- with people taking us on their boats through the archipeligo, inviting us to family birthday parties, and driving us to sites without us asking about it. People are terribly trusting, loving, and friendly.

    In finland and norway, they are more reserved, but just as warm once you get them going. IN fact, they are down-right chatty. most invited us into their homes in one way or another, and nearly every person we've met in scandinavia in our travels are in our facebook friend's lists or constant email friends. Only the ones who didn't speak english aren't on our list, and I still send that man a christmas card because i snagged his address from the bus driver. I send a picture of us with is, rather than signing it. I'm sure he understands my gratitude.

    ---

    Truthfully, i would live in DK as a first choice, but I have to say that NZ is pretty fabulous in a lot of ways. Education here, for example, is affordable. A university education can cost a local about $10k all said and done (over 5 years), which is a do-able amount for most students. There's also a culture of working your way through school AND living at home to save on costs.

    In addition, jobs here are seen as more equal -- just as in DK -- and having a white-collar job isn't the end all and be all. additionally, you don't need to have an education (necessarily) to get a good job here. Mostly, they look for people with the 'can-do' spirit who can be trained, or wants to join, or what have you. basically, if you are interested in something and show that you are keen to learn, you are more likely to get hired than if you have an education. But, an education can help.

    there is also universal health care here, and it is pretty diverse with lots of maori, pacific islanders, south africans (very common now), lots of different kinds of asians, and of course people from europe and so on and so forth. it's a very diverse place, actually. i miss african american faces, in particular, but otherwise, quite nice indeed.

    ---

    There isn't as much consensus here as in DK (as I understand it), but there's a huge focus on sustainability and stability, and people here have the sense of "mucking in" -- the culture here is largely that people were on a distant outpost, and pretty much had to fend for themselves. The earth quake in Christchurch also shows some of that same spirit. We can take care of it ourselves, kiwis say. Yes, the help that was sent DOES help, but they had "the great muck in" where there was a call to all students who were on holiday, or in between university semesters or what have you to come down. Students who went down and gave of their time were often given stipends which most saved to spend on school when they got back. Anyone could go, and so it was completely untrained people going down for the clean up.

    That's how it is here, really. People take care of each other. You need each ohter, and you know you need each other because you're one random shake away from being the victim rather than the hero of the day.

    And watching the people of CC during tremors, watching them pull blocks of concrete off of cars and getting people out, calling out to each other -- we are here! we are goig to help you! we need to move clear because of the tremor, but we aren't leaving yoU!" and to see that over and over in video and photo, it was powerful. Everyday people helping out every day people.

    That's what it is here. Not a day goes by where someone doesn't give someone else bus fare, or someone doesn't finish paying up a bill at a grocery store if you don't have enough money at that moment, or what have you. People are just down-right generous.

    Because you know it comes around. YOu know that today you are blessed enough to have the last $5 to cover the bill, and that tomorrow you may not be, but someone else will take care of you.

    Arguments about politics and the best way to do things -- those happen here, they really do. And they get heated. But at the end of the day, if someone is a dollar short on bus fare, someone else covers it. If someone can't pay for their coffee that am, and are down on their luck -- someone else buys it for them.

    that's just life here in NZ. that's just how it is.

  7. #17
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    also, i agree with gregg in several points:

    1. the US is much larger than DK or NZ. but, i think this can be managed by the states dividing or allocating based on smaller populations, which may have federal oversight (and/or funding), but making sure that funding and population go hand in hand.

    2. the government makes a bad manager, and something about the free market.

    i agree that the government can make a bad manager, but my experience is that profit-driven companies do not actually support free choice.

    for years, we paid for insurance. part o fit was covered by DH's company, but we also paid a portion each month, and had a high-deductable plan to reduce costs to us each month. being young and healthy, it was best for us to go this route.

    but there were several problems that were not about a "free market."

    A. we didn't get to choose the kind of care we wanted. I believe in a lot of forms of alternative medicine, but most of those are not covered by insurance at all. I would prefer, for example, traditional chinese medicine treatment for cancer. There are numerous medical studies (coming out of harvard et al) that demonstrate that the TCM treatment is less toxic and more effective for most forms of cancer treatment. In las vegas, there is the best TCM treatment center in the US. I'd pay my own way to get there, but i'd like my insurance -- you know, that i pay for? -- to cover these costs. The answer? NO.

    lets make it more simple. midwifery is common practice around the world, and homebirth is supported in most developed nations as being safe for low-risk women. unfortunately, if i wanted a homebirth with a midwife, I had to pay out of pocket. my insurance company says NO. I could choose a midwife at an OB practice, and see taht midwife at the hospital, but the birth center (midwife operated) and the homebirth were NO. my insurance company -- you know, the one that i PAY -- doesn't allow it.

    B. And what are my other "free market" options? Choose another insurance company. Ok, lets go there. I tell my company that I no longer want their insurance. They do not give me the $ from the benefit (eg, the value of their portion paid out), if i reject hte benefit, too bad. that's that. This is the salary, and you get this benefit. but if you reject the benefit, your income doesn't reflect the cash value. So, i'm out a benefit -- effectively my salary or income is impacted.

    I would get my matching -- or the portion that i pay -- in my salary, which was probably about $200/mo. Lets just say it was that. Now, I need to go out and insure myself on what I can afford. And that is $200 per month.

    Any insurance companies insuring famiiles for $200/mo? I don't know of any. My aunt was a single, healthy woman with no pre-existing conditions, self employed. Her insurance per month: $800! So, without a considerable raise, I"m not certain that we would have been able to choose another insurance company.

    Likewise, can anyone name an insurance company that would allow me to choose TCM treatment over allopathic for cancer? a homebirth midwife over an allopathically managed birth? From my research, the answer is ZERO.

    So, really a free market?

    I can compare this to my experience here in NZ. Health care is universal, and people also have the option to have health insurance. Some companies even provide this as a service. But first, I"ll talk about the health care.

    Health care:

    1. If you have an accident of any kind, your medical care is 100% covered. This includes all kinds of things -- from surgery to recovery care. It also includes physiotherapy, acupuncture, osteopathy (traditional), yoga or other physical modalities as determined by the doctor, and several other forms of alternative therapy.

    2. maternity care is covered, and you get to choose your care. If you want an OB, you get an OB. If you want a homebirth with a midwife, you get a homebirth with a midwife. Birth center/ yes. Hospital? yes. With midwives at the hospital? yes. Homebirth midwives have hospital privileges. Yes, Yes and Yes. Free choice.

    What else do you get? 1 year of care with a nurse -- home visits, office visits, 24 hr call support to help with infant care and to help prevent post partum depression. Lactation consultants -- at the hospital, at the birth center, and in your home. My friend still sees her lactation consultant -- for breastfeeding help -- and her child is 8 weeks old. The LC is there twice a week. She pays 25%, and health care coverage covers the rest. Doctor's visits for mother and baby -- should they be necessary -- 100% covered.

    2. you get to choose your doctor.

    no networks. no out-of-network fees. You can choose the doctor down the street, or you can choose whatever doctor you like. Want a doctor who also does TCM? no problem. Ayurvedic Doctor? covered. doctor who does herbalism or homeopathy? if the doctor is a registered doctor with the government, guess what? You can choose that doctor. And that doctor will charge the government for your appointments, because, guess what? everyone is covered.

    Even though it's Managed by the government, the reality is that you have a LOT more freedom in who you can go to, what sort of medical care you want, and support in what you need. You get a lot more benefits, without having to pay extra, and to be honest, a simple thing can HOSE a family financially.

    I'll give an example.

    Friend in the US gives birth prematurely and has good insurance coverage. her baby is in the NICU, and needs to be moved to a better hospital, and the best bet is helicopter. Insurance covers 60% of everything, ultimately. My friends own $250k in medical bills, and mounting, because their child still has some respiratory problems that they are working out. The child is 4. Both parents work, but they have to pay for specialized day care as well, to meet the child's needs.

    Friend in NZ gives birth prematurely, and baby is flown with father to hospital who can meet his needs. several days later, the mother is cleared and flown to be with the baby. baby is in NICU, and elder child is cared for by family members. Parents are moved into accommodations near the hospital, and the elder child joins them there. Baby spends 6 weeks in NICU, and then kept as an out-patient for another 6 weeks. Neither parent works. 100% coverage soup-to-nuts, including all required respiratory care until age 4, when the child's condition seems to clear. Parents have no mounting medical costs, and no up front costs to cover.

    Both families are "working class" and my NZ friends have a much better lifestyle than my american ones. And NZ is a much more expensive country in which to live -- for everything from clothing to food to housing etc -- but the quality of life of my NZ friend's family is HIGHER than my US friend's family because there is no concern about medical needs for their family.

    What i have seen -- both in france (studied), switzerland (studied), DK (on the ground, have friends there), and NZ (on the ground) -- is that some level of universal health care provides ACTUAL freedom for the individual to choose the health care needed, to receive health care when needed, and to have a higher quality of life overall.

    likewise, people here tend to do MUCH MORE preventative medicine. that's just the way it is. it is seen as a virtue to take really good care of yourself. And while obesity is on the rise, there's a huge cultural thing to get back to fitness here (and it's not just coming from the government). People feel an obligation to not tax the system -- it's understood to be needed for emergency and difficult cases.

    And insurance, when people have it here, it's to move them forward with treatment, and really, to help off-set costs of extending the alternative treatments beyond what hte government will cover. EG, you might get 10 acupuncture treatments for X condition, and then it's up to the government if you get more (no different with an insurance company, usually!), and then from there, you can kick into your insurance to cover the rest. And insurance usually costs about $200 per year.

    So, i'm just saying.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Acorn's Avatar
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    I thought this was a very good article -

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/ma...pagewanted=all

  9. #19
    Senior Member Acorn's Avatar
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    Something to keep in mind regarding nationalized health care is that it doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition. In the UK you can choose to have private insurance and see private doctors if you like. There is healthcare provided for all, and if you are unhappy with the care you are free to opt out. And when you choose to go the private route, it is substantially less expensive than someplace like the US.

  10. #20
    Senior Member peggy's Avatar
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    A very good post Zoe! Yes, universal health care does give you way more freedom, way more security and way more choice, but Those against it don't want people to know that. They just want them to be afraid of the unknown.
    Another benefit that folks don't think about is the fact that something like 70% of bankruptcies are due to medical costs. This impacts the whole country.

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