eating humanely

[margene]

So I buy meat from a local farmer, therefore I know the animals are treated well. But then there's the whole slaughter part of it, not sure how that goes. I can't give up meat for my family, husband won't go for it. The dairy issue is another problem. I do buy this from the grocery store. I guess I'm trying to figure out what's right and wrong here. The other issue is I do this but I don't really advertise it so it's not really helping a whole lot of animals. I struggle with being judgemental and doing the right thing.

[SteveinMN]

margene, I don't think there's a "right" or "wrong" answer to this one.

As far as history records, humans have eaten meat. Our teeth and our digestive systems are designed for it. Meat is a concentrated source of necessary protein and fats. However, meat production these days is an energy-intensive affair: cows and pigs which are fed grain are not efficient in converting all of those calories into meat; the grain itself is grown using lots of fossil fuel (including its fertilizer). As a society, we tend to be wasteful in not using as much of the animal as possible for meat.

There also is the moral issue. Some may call it rationalization, but I do know there have been creditable studies that show that plants respond to specific stimuli and mistreatment just as animals (including humans) do. The difference, as I see it, is that plants do not resemble us humans as closely as cows and pigs do, and they don't make the same noises when they're in pain. Are we morally superior for choosing to eat living things that don't look like us or make noise as they are slaughtered? I don't believe anyone has a scientific answer for that.

But there is a middle ground here. Eating less meat or more different parts (at least honoring the death of the animal by not wasting so much of it). Eating more plant-based proteins. I've eaten foods like tempeh and okara and portobello mushrooms which, in the right place, are dead ringers for meat, and which even avid meat eaters could eat and not feel "deprived". Perhaps consider cutting back on meat but still eating organic/free-range eggs and dairy products, which at least are "renewable resources" in that the animal does not need to be slaughtered to produce them. That's the choice I pursue. We actually don't eat that much meat in this house; what we eat, we make count.

[creaker]

It doesn't have have to be either-or - just find the path you can live with and balance with the rest of your life . Even most meat eaters are selective in which ones they will/won't eat. And "less" is always a viable and effective option, although some don't think so. Even if you can't get to perfect, you can always try for better.

[bunnys]

Margene: The slaughter part of it does not go well.

Factory farming of animals which began approximately 50+ years ago profoundly changed the quality of domesticated animals lives and not for the better. There is no way around it.

Saying that humans have always eaten meat is an argument based on tradition and not logical.

Eating one vegetarian meal a week helps animals.

There is a "right" and "wrong" answer here and the right answer is what you truly believe is ethical for you. As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing more important about how I live my life than understanding what my ethics are and educating myself about how I can live in accordance with them.

In my daily life I do not talk about my dietary choices. If people ask, I usually say "for ethical reasons" and drop it because, ultimately, I don't have an obligation to explain my ethical decisions to anyone. If they press and appear to be truly interested (rather than looking for an opportunity to dismiss me as a nut which is the case with most who inquire,) I will answer questions.

Just as it is not my responsibility to explain my ethical decisions to others, it's also not my responsibility to proselytize my ethical beliefs to others. I am not in the missionary responsibility camp regarding my ethics.

Your post sounds as if you have some kind of conflict going on. My suggestion is that you ask yourself deep, probing questions and do a lot of research and then try and figure out a way that you can live your life and be at peace with your decisions.

When I say do research, I mean read and think about what you've read. Don't make decisions based on what you've heard or based on what others tell you. Most of them have an agenda and part of that may be copping out or recruiting new people to the cause. Make your own decision on this.

vegsource.com (not affiliated with PETA)--filled with all kinds of great information. You might want to take a look.

Good luck with your struggle.

[Rogar]

I think you have at least some of it by having meat from a local farmer. When I think about the humane aspects of meat eating I often think of how animals live in the wild. They often have predators chasing and killing them, difficulties finding food in certain seasons, and deal with harsh elements and environmental hazards Locally raised farm animals probably lead a pretty easy life compared to their wild relatives.

I have gone through periods of being a vegetarian, for me it is easier to include small amounts of meat into my diet. Like, say, a little ham in bean soup or occasional beef in pasta sauce. I pay a premium for the meat that I buy in hopes that it is raised in some humanitarian fashion. It makes meals easier to fix and a little more appealing. I guess there are the environmental issues, but at an average of less than a pound or half a pound of meat a week, it's probably not too big an impact. Or at least I hope.

I have been a big fan of Mike Pollan. In terms of making a statement in ones diet, the biggest issue to me is avoiding highly processed foods and as much as possible have food from a local source. And mostly plants.

[AnneM]

Margene, if you are worried about the slaughter, you'll just need to ask around at different farms how the animals are raised and what the slaughter method is. Farmers who raise grass finished beef tend to use pretty humane methods. I am lucky to live in an area where it is easy to find grass finished beef raised locally. My CSA farm is biodynamic. They raise cattle, and use cow manure instead of petrochemicals as fertilizer, and when they have an excess of steers, the steers are butchered while they are grazing in a pasture separate from the rest of the herd, so they are not stressed when it happens.

For dairy products, you'll have to search around as well to find a farm with a humane operation. I have found a dairy in my state that doesn't wean calves from their mothers until they are 5 to 6 months old, so we share the milk with the calves. Males are raised to be breeding bulls and are not sent to slaughter. Milk is expensive, at $10 per gallon, but it's worth it to me to pay that price knowing that the animals are well cared for. I started with this link http://www.realmilk.com/where03.html I was looking for a raw milk producer, and the dairy, Pure Eire, sells both raw and pasteurised.

[bunnys]

Males are raised to be breeding bulls and are not sent to slaughter.

Anne: Have you ever thought about what happens to the male calves who are not needed for breeding purposes? One bull can breed with many, many cows over many years of his breeding lifetime. Keeping that bull for no purpose but breeding would be pretty expensive with no way to recoup the cost of feed, care and veterinary. Fifty percent of all calves born are male. What do you think happens to the vast majority of them?

Rogar: Cattle in the wild would be limited to living in very small areas of the planet where there wouldn't be a lot of predators because, let's be honest, cattle are pretty much defenseless sitting ducks. Some farms are more humane in the way they raise their cattle for consumption. But the words "local" and "small" are in no way indicators that what's going on at a particular farm is humane. Way over generalization. I think to say that farmed animals being raised for slaughter are having a happier life than those out in the world is kind of naive and pretty paternalistic and definitely presumptuous. After all, none of us has actually asked the animal and if any of us is concerned about ethics here, we certainly do care about the impact on the animal, right?

I think that if someone is going to consume meat and dairy and poultry products and they are concerned about ethics they should be fully aware of what's going on and not kid themselves that it's a happy, carefree life unless they have evidence to support that claim.

Personally, I've looked for evidence for a long time and in many places and never found what I felt was an acceptable level of humaneness to make it worthwhile for me to still consume these products.

From Margene's post, I get the idea that this has been bothering her and she wants a long-term solution that she can live with. If Margene decides to continue to consume animal products and she doesn't really scrutinize her source, the ethical issue will continue to eat at her because she can't really be sure.

That said, what all the posters have contributed to this thread I think goes well beyond what the average person does and thinks about when consuming animal products and I think that anyone who does ANYTHING is ultimately doing good.

But when it comes to this particular issue I feel that if someone is struggling with what to do, they should look at the industry--especially the part of the industry they think they may participate in--under the cold, harsh light of day and ask really challenging questions and follow-ups so they can make an informed decision.

For me personally, it just can't work. But I do feel that of all the processes associated with consuming animal products, hunting is by far the most humane.

[Zoebird]

We eat local as much as possible, which makes a big difference IMO.

We are part of a cow share for dairy -- so we get raw yogurt and cream (to make butter -- we water plants with buttermilk and they like it). We buy pasture raised/finished meats and eggs, most of which are small-scale slaughtered (small family-owned slaughter houses) before coming to market.

We also buy our veg/produce as close to where we live as possible -- with people who are using organic methods but cannot afford to go through the organic certification process (considering the time/money for it, I wouldn't be bothered either).

We feel that this is the most humane that balances out our lifestyle (ie, we don't hunt/grow which would be the 'most' ethical) with our values and our nutritional needs.

[AnneM]

Anne: Have you ever thought about what happens to the male calves who are not needed for breeding purposes? One bull can breed with many, many cows over many years of his breeding lifetime. Keeping that bull for no purpose but breeding would be pretty expensive with no way to recoup the cost of feed, care and veterinary. Fifty percent of all calves born are male. What do you think happens to the vast majority of them?

Rogar: Cattle in the wild would be limited to living in very small areas of the planet where there wouldn't be a lot of predators because, let's be honest, cattle are pretty much defenseless sitting ducks. Some farms are more humane in the way they raise their cattle for consumption. But the words "local" and "small" are in no way indicators that what's going on at a particular farm is humane. Way over generalization. I think to say that farmed animals being raised for slaughter are having a happier life than those out in the world is kind of naive and pretty paternalistic and definitely presumptuous. After all, none of us has actually asked the animal and if any of us is concerned about ethics here, we certainly do care about the impact on the animal, right?

I think that if someone is going to consume meat and dairy and poultry products and they are concerned about ethics they should be fully aware of what's going on and not kid themselves that it's a happy, carefree life unless they have evidence to support that claim.

Personally, I've looked for evidence for a long time and in many places and never found what I felt was an acceptable level of humaneness to make it worthwhile for me to still consume these products.

From Margene's post, I get the idea that this has been bothering her and she wants a long-term solution that she can live with. If Margene decides to continue to consume animal products and she doesn't really scrutinize her source, the ethical issue will continue to eat at her because she can't really be sure.

That said, what all the posters have contributed to this thread I think goes well beyond what the average person does and thinks about when consuming animal products and I think that anyone who does ANYTHING is ultimately doing good.

But when it comes to this particular issue I feel that if someone is struggling with what to do, they should look at the industry--especially the part of the industry they think they may participate in--under the cold, harsh light of day and ask really challenging questions and follow-ups so they can make an informed decision.

For me personally, it just can't work. But I do feel that of all the processes associated with consuming animal products, hunting is by far the most humane.

bunnys, they don't keep all the breeding bulls. They are registered Jerseys and some are sold to other registered Jersey breeders. I can't tell you that they all live long lives and die from natural causes at the end, but what Pure Eire dairy is attempting to do is a far lot better than any other dairy I have researched.

[SteveinMN]

Saying that humans have always eaten meat is an argument based on tradition and not logical.

Cite?