g** f$^& d*&*(, new wrinkle in the BK

[Zoe Girl]

soo the latest, and on the heels of the "I don't swear' thread I am ready to curse it up royally. There is a time and a place. '

I am ready to file my bankruptcy. As a quick refresher I had a foreclosure almost 3 years ago, the 2nd was not paid since the house value dropped $100K, they came back and have legal standing to ask for money. I worked out a painful deal but one that I could live with and I was going to be free of this and kinda broke, but no bankruptcy. Then my ex (who was unfortunately still on the loan through the situation out of my control) said he could sue me for the amount that they collected from him. I got legal advice and am filing chapter 13 bankruptcy because that will discharge any obligation i have to him, it also pays on the bills which I feel better about. I had a small credit card debt and a small dental debt that I was able to pay off but I cannot exclude those in this BK due to the rules. So it took 2 factors to make BK my only option, the 2nd mortgage being so high and my ex saying he could sue me.

Now I find out that my tax return is factored in and it is large because I have a very low income and pay medical insurance for everyone. The total I will pay into the BK now will be more than the deal I worked out plus I will have a BK on my credit and 2 bills i was perfectly capable of paying will not get fully paid. I have the option of getting the tax return and spending it before filing or filing now with some combination of paying over a longer time or more per month, but adding years until I can start counting the 7 years. To say I am pi$$ed is an understatement. I want my deal back and an agreement he won't sue me. BK gets into my privacy more which means i am pushed into a conventional overextended lifestyle since savings can be taken but if I spend the entire tax return I basically get to keep it.

I feel this is another manifestation of the abusive relationship we have had, I don't have choices I would have had simply because he has not communicated or cooperated. And overall it is costing me more money than what I had worked out independantly not to mention a possibly unnecessary bankruptcy. I am deciding what to say to my lawyer in the BK and to his lawyer, all documented and legal, I wonder if there is any way to show ongoing financial harrassment post divorce? It seems that it isn't that severe like parents who never pay child support but I have a reason to say this.

[ToomuchStuff]

Now I find out that my tax return is factored in and it is large because I have a very low income and pay medical insurance for everyone. The total I will pay into the BK now will be more than the deal I worked out plus I will have a BK on my credit and 2 bills i was perfectly capable of paying will not get fully paid. I have the option of getting the tax return and spending it before filing or filing now with some combination of paying over a longer time or more per month, but adding years until I can start counting the 7 years. To say I am pi$$ed is an understatement. I want my deal back and an agreement he won't sue me. BK gets into my privacy more which means i am pushed into a conventional overextended lifestyle since savings can be taken but if I spend the entire tax return I basically get to keep it.

I feel this is another manifestation of the abusive relationship we have had, I don't have choices I would have had simply because he has not communicated or cooperated. And overall it is costing me more money than what I had worked out independantly not to mention a possibly unnecessary bankruptcy. I am deciding what to say to my lawyer in the BK and to his lawyer, all documented and legal, I wonder if there is any way to show ongoing financial harrassment post divorce? It seems that it isn't that severe like parents who never pay child support but I have a reason to say this.

Bank accounts can be hit. Unknown cash on hand, cannot. (but with a daughter your worried about doing drugs, you would have to keep your cash on hand emergency fund hidden from them, probably in multiple places).
I won't say anything about the "feelings" of this, but he is legally looking out for himself, you should be looking out for yourself, legally as well. You are not a couple, there is no relationship, he is your former sperm donor, to the kids he is dad.

[JaneV2.0]

I may have misunderstood what you wrote, but is there something preventing you from paying off outstanding bills before the bankruptcy hearing? Can you prepay for dental care or other services?

[rodeosweetheart]

It sounds to me like he has been not abiding by the financial agreements that the court set during the divorce, including paying for the kids' medical bills. Bouncing checks on child support may be actionable--I think it is time to talk to your attorney before you proceed with the BK, as it doesn't sound like you really want the BK, but that he has harrassed you into it by threatening to sue. Maybe if you get a court hearing about the non-compliance issues, he will owe you back money and the court will order that he cannot sue you about the BK. Just thinking here--I would pursue legal remedy against him, although I know that is intimidating.

When I got my protective order against my husband who was stalking me, it was terrifying. I gave up our house to him because I was afraid of him, even though the court gave it to me. The kindest people during my divorce were actually the police, when I went to register the protective order against him. They said no one had the right to treat me that way.

I am thinking maybe it is time to take him to court, preemptively. I wish now I had done more to fight my ex-husband--it would have been easier on the kids in the long run. But hey, I was so glad to get away from him when they turned 18--had a ceremonial burning of 5 boxes of court documents when they turned 21.

I wouldn't worry about protecting the kids' relationship with him anymore--they see him for what he is, or they will in a few years.

Hang in there, life will begin again, and never ever let anyone say to you, "You are bound to this guy forever, since you have kids together." It is not true, and it will damage you.

[Weston]

Bank accounts can be hit. Unknown cash on hand, cannot. (but with a daughter your worried about doing drugs, you would have to keep your cash on hand emergency fund hidden from them, probably in multiple places).

ToomuchStuff - I don't understand what you are trying to get across here. Why can't "unknown cash" be discovered and thus "hit"?

[rodeosweetheart]

Hey ZG-- found this on a Colorado lawyer website, looked applicable:


Child Support

When people are getting a divorce or ending a relationship that involves children, typically one of the first questions is, "How much will I have to pay in child support?" (Or, "How much will I receive in child support?").

In Colorado, child support is determined using statutory guidelines. That means the court plugs certain numbers into a formula to arrive at the child support amount. Essentially, the numbers used by the court to determine child support are the monthly gross incomes of each parent, the number of overnights each parent spends with the children, daycare and health insurance expenses for the child paid by each parent. Other "extraordinary" expenses of the child can be factored into the calculation and if one parent pays maintenance to the other parent, that amount is factored into the child support calculation as well.

Other expenses of the parents, such as mortgage, rent, utilities, car payments and food are not factored into the child support calculation.

Child support worksheets are available online at the Colorado courts' web site so you can get an idea of what your child support obligation might be. http://www.courts.state.co.us/Forms/...orm_Type_ID/94

The statutory child support guidelines are designed for parents with combined gross monthly incomes of no greater than $20,000. If you and your spouse's combined gross monthly incomes are greater than $20,000, the court can use its discretion when determining child support. It can use the statutory guidelines and calculate your child support as if your combined gross monthly incomes were no more than $20,000 or it can extrapolate beyond the guidelines and use actual combined gross monthly incomes.

If the court finds that one parent is earning less than he or she should be earning based on that parent's abilities, education, and employment history, the court can impute an income to that parent for child support purposes that is higher than the income they are actually earning. However, income cannot be imputed to a parent who is the primary custodian of a child under 30 months of age.

Child support collection
Once the court enters a child support order, the parents may agree, or the court may order, that an income assignment be initiated against the parent paying child support. That means the monthly child support is automatically deducted from the parent's paycheck and sent to the receiving parent.

When one parent does not pay their court-ordered child support, that parent may be found in contempt of court. If a parent is found in contempt of court for not paying child support, he or she may be fined, jailed and ordered to pay the other parent's attorney's fees for having to pursue the contempt. A parent may also seek a judgment against the non-paying parent and put a lien on the non-paying parent's assets and/or garnish his or her bank accounts for child support arrears.

A parent may also seek help establishing, modifying or collecting child support through a local governmental child support enforcement agency. Child support enforcement agencies offer services to anyone who applies for assistance. The drawback with these agencies is that they have a large caseload, so assistance from them tends to be slow and, while the agency can assist you, it does not represent you. No attorney-client relationship is established between you and the agency. However, child support enforcement agencies can utilize unique collection remedies not available to attorneys or private individuals. These remedies include suspending a delinquent parent's driver's license, intercepting tax refunds and reporting delinquency to credit reporting agencies.

Each county has its own child support enforcement agency:

Denver County 303.944.2960

Douglas County 303.814.7145

Arapahoe County 303.752.8900

Jefferson County 303.271.4300

Adams County 303.227.2233

Boulder County 303.678.6300

[Zoe Girl]

I may have misunderstood what you wrote, but is there something preventing you from paying off outstanding bills before the bankruptcy hearing? Can you prepay for dental care or other services?

Yes, paying on any bill over $300 must be reported and may affect how much they get past that in the proceeding. I would still have to pay the monthly amount even if I pay them off.

I have been processing feelings, honestly that is the reason for the reaction. I feel in a situation where I have to share financial information and when I worked out the agreement I did not. I also am giving over to the court to set how much I pay rather than negotiating with the collection agency. Negotiating feels more like I have some say and power in my life, submitting to the court is reasonable however it takes away alot of my power. And I find that I am extremely private about finances, to be in a situation to share what I want to keep private is very difficult, it feels like a violation. Now I get another thing to work on instead of feeling empowered and moving on.

[Zoe Girl]

rodeo, that is so awesome! Thank you. I am handling one thing at a time and that is definitely a priority, another huge one is searching very diligently for a better paying job as soon as this is settled (not that I haven't but I have had so little time overall, underearning no matter what the economy is doing is so very hard).

I super duper appreciate the support!!

[ToomuchStuff]

ToomuchStuff - I don't understand what you are trying to get across here. Why can't "unknown cash" be discovered and thus "hit"?

Banks can be served with lien's, court papers, etc. Start using cash at home and it becomes harder for them to track you. That is on the honesty side. On the dishonesty side, I unfortunately hear about (know LEO's, social workers, probation officers, etc), I have frequently heard, what they do is empty their bank account (to the minimum), then a few days later, they go in with no money (or less then $1) on them and apply for benefits as they are asked how much is on them, and how much is in their bank accounts. I have heard a lot more stories from them, but the above one gets told so often, it seems well known.

[Weston]

Banks can be served with lien's, court papers, etc. Start using cash at home and it becomes harder for them to track you. That is on the honesty side. On the dishonesty side, I unfortunately hear about (know LEO's, social workers, probation officers, etc), I have frequently heard, what they do is empty their bank account (to the minimum), then a few days later, they go in with no money (or less then $1) on them and apply for benefits as they are asked how much is on them, and how much is in their bank accounts. I have heard a lot more stories from them, but the above one gets told so often, it seems well known.

It's pretty standard in my state (and I believe most states) for creditors to do "Discovery in Aid of Execution". During that discovery debtors are invariably asked either through written questions (interrogatories) or oral questions (depositions) if they have any cash on hand or anywhere else within their control. Obviously it should be done under the guidance of an experienced attorney but a far safer/better approach (if at all possible) is to find out what assets are exempt from creditor levy under state or federal law and convert your non-exempt assets to exempt assets. Again, to repeat, this should only be done under the guidance of an experienced lawyer. An experienced attorney on the other side is going to find cash rather quickly and easily unless the debtor is willing to commit perjury.