How Much Would You Work?

[Kestra]

This is kind of an aside from Zoe Girl's thread about side work.
I'm in the enviable position of being able to do well paid, relatively easy work, as much or as little as I want. I always have lots of ideas for other side projects - writing/editing most commonly - but other things as well.
However, after I work my regular job and do the usual shopping, cooking, housework etc, I have trouble motivating myself to do side projects.

So, the reasonable solution is to work a bit less and give myself more time. But it's easier to be motivated to work my paid job, as the reward and expectations are very clear. I work 1 hr, I make $X. There's always work to do. So I tend to just default into working for money. Compared to some of you, I don't work much at all. At my company full time is 35 hrs/week. Generally I work 30-40 hours a week, depending. But I take less vacation time than I'm allowed to, so sometimes become burnt out. For maximums and minimums, it's unlimited overtime indefinitely, and has been such for 90% of the 6 years I've been with the company. I think if I did less than 10-15 hrs/week they would wonder about it, but at this point they'd rather have my 10 hours than 0 hours. And this is Canada, so healthcare isn't a consideration.

Anyhow, the question is, if you were able to work any particular amount of hours, how would you decide how many to work? This is assuming you still need to work for money, which I do. Would you work just enough to cover your expenses? Would you do enough to cover expenses plus a particular savings rate? How would you determine the amount of money you want to save? Would you work as much as you possibly could physically in order to be FI sooner and in case something happens and the cushy job goes away? Would you take care of some other projects first and then work for money?

Maybe some of you have a way of looking at this that I haven't thought of. I know it's crazy to envy people who HAVE to work a particular amount of hours, but on the other hand, it's almost too loose for me. I'm always wondering if I should work more - make money while the money is good - or work less and have more time for other things, that could potentially lead to future money, but have no immediate guarantee of such.

Thanks for giving me a place to try to start a discussion about this. It's not a common scenario and my co-workers don't have the same freedom that I do, so I don't discuss it much at work.

[razz]

I don't think that it is the work hours that are unclear but your goals, IMHO. If you knew that you had a particular goal that you would aim for using all your time, $$$ and energy, you would be motivated.

Is it that you feel that you are drifting? This is the impression that I got from your post but it could be completely mistaken so ignore my comment in that case.

[Kestra]

That's an astute observation, Razz. And makes me feel justified in posting here. Thanks for that thought. Definitely something I'm thinking about and will continue to think about.
Yes, my goals are generally vague or absent or too easy.
One of my main goals is to be FI, but at this point that's pretty much an inevitability. I'm only 36 and depending on how much I work it'll take roughly 7-15 years to get there. But I really only want to be FI to have more control over my environment - specifically to not be in Canada during the winter. And to not have to work in an air conditioned office. I probably shouldn't have my life revolve around my hatred of being cold, but that's the truth.
The other goal is just to enjoy my life. Which is of course, super vague. So I tend not to be particularly harsh on myself or self-motivating.
The other thing is that DH and I have purposely set up our life to have minimum responsibilities. No kids, pets, house, etc. We don't like to feel like we HAVE to do something. So, sometimes it feels like most of what I do doesn't matter anyway. If I'm enjoying it that's good enough.
Of course there are solutions to that. And I do take opportunities as they come my way if I feel like doing something outside of my normal life.

And then there is the curse of contentment. Being content with my current circumstances definitely makes me less eager to pursue difficult creative pursuits. I did the most writing in high school as it was an escape from something I hated. I don't need to escape from anything any more.

Just wanted to write up the types of things your comment made me think about. Such a first world problem I have. But it does give me lots of areas for contemplation, which is a big hobby of mine.

[ApatheticNoMore]

How would I get that type of job? That I could work any hours I wanted to? Self-employed? I know I've asked this question before, but I don't think it was of you

[Kestra]

How would I get that type of job? That I could work any hours I wanted to? Self-employed? I know I've asked this question before, but I don't think it was of you

Not sure if this is rhetorical or not.
I lucked out. Got a job that fit my skills well, proved that I was an excellent employee, went back to college, asked if I could keep working part time, they switched me from salaried full time to part time casual, removed some of my benefits, gave me more money instead. Then when school didn't work out and I went back to full time hours they couldn't force me to change my contract. They understand the less pressure I feel to work, the more I work. Win-win.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I lucked out. Got a job that fit my skills well, proved that I was an excellent employee, went back to college, asked if I could keep working part time, they switched me from salaried full time to part time casual, removed some of my benefits, gave me more money instead.

No, I was curious, but not because I'm under any illusion it's easy or anything. I was wondering if there was some career I could get into that would faciliatate this. I'd basically do it, if the path wasn't vastly long, and I could stand the career (I don't need to like it, just tolerate it). I think the way you detail above is about the only way, be a great employee in a job that makes good use of your skills, ask (even though what you are asking for is highly unconventional) and hope (you may more than prove yourself and still be turned down of course, it's a gamble). The benefits I could care less about since I seldom have much except health insurance which is important (since I'm not Canadian).

[rose]

Kestra, this isn't directly responding to your question but it brought up some thoughts. I "retired" from paid work 10 years ago. When I figured out I had "enough" to live on I quit as I wanted my freedom more than money. I was 53. I'm amazed at my peers who are now reaching official retirement age of 62 or 65 and choose to keep working and some have into their 70's. I'm talking about the ones that do not need more money. But there is a greed thing there ....do we ever have "enough"? And also people do not know what to do with their time. They feel like they may die if they retire. There is so much to do in the world, why would anyone have to sit in the lawn chair or whatever it is they are afraid of? I've done lots of things..politics, activism on peace and justice issues, sat on boards for non-profits, traveled, read, socialized, helped mom mom and an elderly friend, grocery shopped on Tuesday mornings (never could under my work schedule) and NOT set a daily alarm. It is much harder to have control of all your time than letting an employer have control over your time. And many people don't want that challenge or want to do the work to take control of their time ...no matter how rewarding that may be. I find it fascinating as I was so eager for my freedom that I find it hard to understand that some people don't want freedom.

I love your comment about weather. I'm trying to leave cold weather behind too so I can be outside more. I just left a cold city last year and am doing some traveling and living temporarily in other places. Hoping to find my final landing spot. I want warm, cheap and liberal!

If I was you, I think I'd consider setting a date you want to reach financial independence -- the age you will want to get away from the cold weather and then you could work hours according to that. I wouldn't work ALL the hours you possibly could as we can get hit by a bus tomorrow. It sounds like you enjoy life and you don't want to give that up by working all the time.

It sounds like you have a "cushion" in that you have projects and ideas which would allow you to make money if needed after you reach FI.

Is contentment a curse? Gosh isn't that what we all want? I admire you for finding that at a young age. It sounds like you and your husband were intentional with what you wanted your life to look like.

[lhamo]

Is there a typical cycle to the workload and is there potentially any period in the winter months where you could take off for a longer period and go somewhere warm, preferably not during a peak holiday travel period when fares go up, etc? even if your DH could only go with you for part of the time, I am thinking that having 4-8 weeks of the year when you tell your employer "not available" and head someplace warm and sunny might do a lot in terms of keeping you happy in your current position with its great flexibility while continuing toward the FI goal. You could work on side projects during that period, or not.

Even if those longer breaks are not possible, you can still make a point of taking vacations and getting out of the cold and dark in the winter. It is important not to burn yourself out, especially when you have such a comparatively good gig. So I would decide on some warm, sunny interesting places to go in the next few years and set that as a goal that you work toward, both in terms of income to afford it and in terms of budgeting your time to make sure you actually go and don't just get sucked into working according to other people's schedules.

The other thing to do is just experiment with setting limits, for yourself and for the company, and see how that goes both financially and otherwise. Tell them you have some personal projects or responsibilities you need time to devote to and that for the next X weeks you will only be able to give them Y number of hours. HOLD YOURSELF TO THAT SCHEDULE (this is actually the hardest part, I'm guessing). See how it feels. Track your spending -- do you have more energy for cooking yourself, doing home projects, researching lower costs alternatives and does that cut money off your budget? Track the time you actually spend on different projects (having blocks of time to devote to them -- X hours a day or Y days a week is a good way to keep yourself accountable) and see what the result is. If they are income generating, what is the RHW? How does that compare to your RHW at the day job? Do you enjoy it enough to increase the amount of time you spend on it? Would it make you happier overall to be working more on the side projects for bigger parts of the day? If you think it might, extend your experiment by telling your employer that from Q date you will need to reduce your hours further to R hours a week. Keep tweaking it and adjusting the balance until you find the fit that feels right (or until your self-managed activities are generating enough consistent income with enough reduction in stress/unhappiness that you are able to say goodbye to the day job altogether).

Personally, I would not take on a 60-80 hour schedule on a regular basis under any circumstances. I occasionally have to work those kind of weeks in my current job, and it is hell. My whole life gets out of kilter and I usually get sick shortly afterwards. I can probably work a maximum of 50 hours or so a week and still keep things in balance. 30-40 is much better. My current scheduled workday without overtime is 40 hours at the office (I get an hour for lunch but don't get paid for it), and I have a 2-3 hour daily commute, so I am maxed out. No side jobs for me, though with the kids schooling costs increasing I have considered it. I just don't think I would be a happy human being having to work that much. I think our family life and my marriage would suffer, and that isn't a tradeoff that I'm willing to make. I MIGHT start experimenting with learning programming or something at Treehouse or a similar site, just to see if there are skills I could pick up and use for freelancing. But I would negotiate a cut in hours before I started doing any serious freelancing that would take regular amounts of time.

I haven't read it yet, but you might find the books Quitter and Start by Jon Acuff to be useful resources as you think this through. You might also find Escape from Cubicle Nation (both the book and the blog) to be helpful.

Good luck figuring this out -- what a fun and interesting position to be in! I wish I was in the position to be more experimental, but I've got to keep at least my current salary to be able to pay taxes/kids schooling costs, and keep us on proper work visas. So no dramatic shift to self employment is likely in the short term, and probably not terribly likely in the long term either.

[Kestra]

Thanks for both of your thoughts and ideas. Definitely some of the difficulty is managing DH and I's work and needs together. Technically, if it was I alone, I could start going south in the winter now. The peak time for my employer is spring/summer for business and others vacations. I don't tend to take summer vacations as it's easy to enjoy life and work at the same time. Summer is great here and getting to work is fun. It's the winters I have trouble with. This year, last weekend was the first shorts wearing days.
And DHs FI date is different from my own. His current job is much more stressful and physically demanding, but pays more money, so he may quit full time work within 7-10 years and then he has some part time stuff he can do if needed. Basically as soon as he's done with full time work, I'll approach my employer about taking larger chunks of time off in the winter, as mentioned. We're going to RV in the winters.

Yes, vacations more frequently. I know, I know. Feb 2012 was the first time we took a vacation in 5 years of being together. We went to NV,CA, AZ, UT and it was great. His new job and our work commitments got in the way this year. But starting next winter, we will make sure to get away to somewhere warm at least once. His shift work schedule gives him more days off than an office worker so we have some flexibility there as well.

About the tracking of time, I've done some of that, but not to the extent that you mention. Yes, holding myself to a schedule is the tricky part. I do find myself in a situation where my laziness kicks in about new or harder projects and with no particular goals or deadlines I say "I'd might as well work." I'm generally operating under the assumption that unless I have something better to do, then I'll work. But I'm not actively seeking those "better" things. Very good idea. I was trying to treat writing more like a job, with ways to plan and track my time and be accountable. But that was a micromanaging situation. I knew what I would do when I set aside writing time, but didn't have a plan for setting that time aside in the first place. I need to macromanage my hours more, if that makes any sense. I'm definitely going to think about those suggestions, lhamo. Thanks.

[pinkytoe]

And then there is the curse of contentment.

This is something I think about a lot - I have always wondered about the role of ambition when one is on a simple living path. I feel vaguely uneasy when I accept status quo even though it is very comfortable - shouldn't I be doing more? But perhaps that is just our cultural upbringing about work ethic. I have never enjoyed actually "showing up" for more than 35 hours a week and somehow I have managed to pull that off all these years. Now that we have a goal of retiring in a few years, I am willing to ramp that up. So I guess it changes at different stages of life and as our goals change.