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Thread: Is it 1984 yet?

  1. #21
    Senior Member gimmethesimplelife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Remember when it used to be considered paranoid to believe such a thing? Now, not so much.
    Gotta say I agree with Alan here.....it's very creepy to think that allegedly we have all these rights such as freedom of speech and freedom to post (mostly) whatever I want here, but then to find out that this information is being collected....for what honest purpose is my question? Last night on the news I heard that Verizon is handing over to the government calling history for millions of its accounts - what's up with that and why is that neccesary? What bothers me is that it seems the government can step in and collect this information WITH NO EXPLANATION OF WHY IT IS DOING SO. Gotta say I don't like that.....Rob

  2. #22
    Simpleton Alan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gimmethesimplelife View Post
    Gotta say I agree with Alan here.....it's very creepy to think that allegedly we have all these rights such as freedom of speech and freedom to post (mostly) whatever I want here, but then to find out that this information is being collected....for what honest purpose is my question? Last night on the news I heard that Verizon is handing over to the government calling history for millions of its accounts - what's up with that and why is that neccesary? What bothers me is that it seems the government can step in and collect this information WITH NO EXPLANATION OF WHY IT IS DOING SO. Gotta say I don't like that.....Rob
    Verizon is just the one we know about. It's not unreasonable to suspect that all domestic and foreign phone traffic is being logged by the NSA, additional reports today suggest that other major carriers were also involved. Then we find out that all electronic correspondance through Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype, YouTube, and Apple are being collected. The Washington Post yesterday reported that it was all being done with assistance from the service providers, although today they've changed that to indicate it may have been done without the service providers knowledge or assistance.

    It all makes this long time critic of big government want to say "I told ya so!!"

    Oh, and while I'm saying that, and attempting to stay on topic, does anyone yet see the beginnings of the Ministry of Truth in the ongoing Attack Watch website maintained at BarackObama.Com?
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." ~ Albert Einstein

  3. #23
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    I've been peeved about Obama's civil liberties abuses since NDAA, and hated 8 years of civil liberties abuses via Bush, so I guess I told you so too? But the question on what to do wasn't purely rhetorical ... was thinking maybe some independent civil liberties caucus, or trying in either or maybe best both parties to field civil liberties candidates on the primary level or ...???? Although this would depend on civil liberties actually by itself being enough of an issue with most people to matter.

    Oh, and while I'm saying that, and attempting to stay on topic, does anyone yet see the beginnings of the Ministry of Truth in the ongoing Attack Watch website maintained at BarackObama.Com?
    My personal take is that's kool aid for the believers. Basically I don't even think the aim of that weapon really is critics (crackdown on whistleblowers is aimed at real dissent and it's SERIOUS, it's the real line in the sand, not even having access to real information - the Attack Watch stuff just isn't). I think the aim of the Truth Team stuff is to reinforce support for Obama among those who already support him. It reinforces support through cognitive dissonance, people will be even more inclined to support what they have already defended (yes generally, yes even me now, and yes one is free to defend anything anywhere on the 'net land - but here we are talking about people recruited to provide very specific support for a politician who otherwise has violated a lot of principles liberals claimed to stand for). Basically it's to splinter any possibility of principled resistence to Obama's policies from the left.
    Trees don't grow on money

  4. #24
    Senior Member Rogar's Avatar
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    It is all a unsettling, but slightly odd that it is breaking headlines just now. Google, Facebook, Verizon, and who ever have had free reign to collect information and use it for who knows what for years. My Google tablet seems to have some features that track it's location, which in some paranoid state could be used to locate tablet users for a drone strike. Not to mention all those cameras at intersections and in busy areas. Our privacy went down the river some time ago.

    The question that comes to my mind is whether this lose of privacy is worth it if it prevents a terrorist attack or catches some sort of threat to national security, such as a cyber attack or cyber spying? This isn't exactly Kansas any more.
    "what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" Mary Oliver

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I think we fool ourselves by decorating our box of beliefs in either red or blue ribbons and failing to acknowledge that the package contains the same thing. The differences in our two parties are more theatrical than substantive.
    Sad but true!

  6. #26
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    I get pretty indifferent too, like duh, the evil corrupt govenrment and it's evil corrupt people are doing evil corrupt things, and we have no civil liberties, this just weights on me like a heavy weight in a bog I've been stuck in forever and I'm tired of thinking about, tell me something I don't know (but never knew with so much proof).

    But if it's breaking headlines now that's good, maybe they'll be some pushback. We are the change we've been waiting for The thing is any sort of movement for pushback on these types of things doesn't really exist. If you want to protest the horrible state of the environment well at least you can hold signs about Keystone XL. But there is no civil liberties movement. So the only actually previously carved channel is just for a lot of outraged people to write their congresspeople? Hmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar View Post
    The question that comes to my mind is whether this lose of privacy is worth it if it prevents a terrorist attack or catches some sort of threat to national security, such as a cyber attack or cyber spying?
    Worth all the protestors that will inevitably be spyed on? Because that's what our government actually seems to do with such power, use it more against protest than actual terrorism. It's not like 1) we give up our civil liberties 2) as a result government is incredibly nosy but uses it to find some terrorists. That's the conflict the government propaganda sells, as if civil liberties were *only* about principle compared to practical concerns. I think that's false. It's more or at least also like 1) we give up our civil liberties 2) as a result government is incredibly nosy and uses it to crush protest. I don't think it's worth it as both the loss of civil liberties and protest are great losses and I think both those things are what should be weighed against: maybe the incompetent government will actually catch a terrorist with the information if it wants to, even though it's record on this is a joke (Russian govt reporting they should look into a terrorist - no biggie ...)

    Of course there's all kind of other fallout, what does everyone being spied on do to free communication even among the most non-threatening people? It shuts it up. What eventually will it do to U.S. techs place in the world (I can only hope that any innovative new tech moves to Iceland or somewhere - well a person can hope .. for change )
    Trees don't grow on money

  7. #27
    Senior Member flowerseverywhere's Avatar
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    IN 2001 When the Patriot act gave government agencies more power for wiretaps, financial transaction scrutiny and detention of illegal immigrants we were silent
    In 2002 when Guantanamo bay started to be filled with detainees without a trial and not according to the Geneva conventions, we were silent
    When we realized there were no weapons of mass destructions in Iraq knowing that our invasion caused the death of innocent civilians like any war does, we were silent

    Why are you upset now?

    This is a scarey world we live in. I still have faith in the government for those of us who are honest and lawful to continue living as we have been.

  8. #28
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    I've been upset. Though not able to sustain a constant a state of uniterupted rage and kill myself with stress quite yet. But what can I say, I'm working on it .... (mostly I check out with apathy of even following politics for awhile because I get *too* disgusted). And I've not been able to single handedly create a movement that doesn't seem to exist out of thin air nor tried (the anti Iraq war (and somewhat anti-wars in general) movement was a real movement though - if it hadn't gotten diverted by electorial politics, it had potential for protesting empire and the police state).
    Trees don't grow on money

  9. #29
    Senior Member bae's Avatar
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    There was a large anti-war movement here in my community. Protests every week, lots of visibility.

    It pretty much vanished the day Obama was elected, and hasn't returned.

    What's up with that, do you suppose?

    The only folks I've seen consistently opposing this nonsense in my neck of the woods have been our very very minority Libertarian community. Folks who seem evenly loathed by both our local "progressives" and "conservatives".

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bae View Post
    What's up with that, do you suppose?
    I suspect that people realize that Obama really would rather not embroil us in foreign wars, as readily as his predecessor desired it, preferring instead a diplomatic solution, and that accounts for the difference in attitude toward his administration in that respect.

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