What's your response to the naysayers?

[Joyous_5]

I've been asked recently why I try to avoid big box stores. When I talk about the mass production of cheap goods that end up in the landfill, poor salaries/worker's rights, etc., a couple of people have responded with, "but if we stopped consuming this way, think of all the jobs that would be lost."

What's your response to that? I said that if we weren't buying so much we could afford better quality items with a longer life. And that would improve the quality of the workers who make the products. But would it put people out of jobs? Maybe. Or possibly other jobs would open up (Making products from recycled materials? Replanting forests? ) that would take the place of those at the big box store/factory?

What do you think?

[iris lilies]

I've been asked recently why I try to avoid big box stores. When I talk about the mass production of cheap goods that end up in the landfill, poor salaries/worker's rights, etc., a couple of people have responded with, "but if we stopped consuming this way, think of all the jobs that would be lost."

What's your response to that? I said that if we weren't buying so much we could afford better quality items with a longer life. And that would improve the quality of the workers who make the products. But would it put people out of jobs? Maybe. Or possibly other jobs would open up (Making products from recycled materials? Replanting forests? ) that would take the place of those at the big box store/factory?

What do you think?

I frame this discussion as "here's what I want in my life" not "here's what is good for society." It's hard for others to argue with these "I" statements:

• I tire of cheap things that break easily
• I want items of solid quality in my house
• I don't want a lot of cheap crap sitting around that I have to dust and maintain
• I dislike crowds and shopping as recreation

and my latest one:

• I don't like all of the new stuff in stores, don't like the new designs, just don't like new period

When I frame this approach to shopping as a self-centered one, they can't argue with me about what I personally like

Sure, they could talk to me about how my low consumer habits work against those who are employed in the consumerist society, but since I've already framed my discussion as essentially "all about me" let 'em. My response would be: I don't care about workers and jobs. Because, you know, it's all about me and I AM a consumer, so give me what I want (see the above list.)

[SteveinMN]

Joyous, there's something "off" here.

If the question really is why you don't buy things at big-box stores, all due respect, but your response is misleading. Much of what most folks buy is the same whether it's bought at the big-box stores or smaller ones or even on-line. A refrigerator is a refrigerator, and buying it at Ma & Pa's Appliance rather than MenLowe's Depot doesn't make it any different*. Ditto with ink-jet cartridges. Or aspirin. There are some products (free-range chicken, etc.) in which it would be much harder to scale up to big-box volume levels. But that's not necessarily the fault of the big box. Pricing may be different (not necessarily in MenLowe's favor, either) and the destinations for the profits and business-support services (printing, office supplies, etc.) are different (with Ma & Pa spending far more of it locally). One store or the other may be more convenient or have customer service you prefer. One organization may treat employees better. But the product is the same. And I don't believe the people who produce any of those items will be any better treated if you don't buy the product at a big-box store -- especially since so many other people do buy there.

Now if the discussion is about worker's rights and how they're treated by management and where the profits go and the business' ties to the community, that's different. But that's business practices, not products.

Patronize the businesses you wish. I won't walk in to Hobby Lobby for anything because I find their politico-religious stand repugnant; I won't support that. I'll pay the co-op and Larry the egg farmer more for eggs than I'll pay the supermarket down the street because Larry doesn't cram birds into unliveable spaces and shove antibiotics down their throats even if they're not sick, and the co-op pays its workers a living wage even beyond what law requires them to offer; I'll support that. I will buy stuff at Target, at least in part because Target is based in Minnesota and spends a lot of money here.

Would jobs disappear if we all quit buying crap? Some, yes. But the current consumerist model has already caused jobs to disappear. How many cobblers or gas station pump attendants do you know? Jobs may be lost to lower volumes of goods sold, but other jobs might come back to attend to the maintenance or recycling of what is purchased. I don't know if anyone could say that the returning jobs are "better" than the old jobs.

And don't underestimate the generations of Americans who've grown up with the experience that nothing is worth spending a lot of money on because you'll probably grow tired of it before it wears out anyway. Or a stock market that rewards growth more than it rewards stewardship and profit margins. Those are very powerful forces to overcome in aiming for sustainability.


* There is the hanky-panky of similar-looking products which are, in fact, not similar under the skin because they're built to specs or the price stipulated by the big box. But the smart consumer knows this because part numbers and SKUs are different, and knows they're comparing apples and pears.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I've been asked recently why I try to avoid big box stores. When I talk about the mass production of cheap goods that end up in the landfill, poor salaries/worker's rights, etc., a couple of people have responded with, "but if we stopped consuming this way, think of all the jobs that would be lost."

well if you're buying stuff anyway, it's very simple: it's really what things like fair trade are based on. I'd rather support people producing things for a decent wage, in a way that's better for the environment, etc. And that works for chocolate . Of course if you're not buying things at all ... well I basically don't think supporting the destruction of the world for an economic model dependent on distributing money via jobs in the exact same way we do now (as opposed to what? job sharing for one thing etc.) because it serves someone's interest and that isn't necesarily primarily the employees, is worth bothering with. Really the destruction of the world for jobs is not a good bargain. Or alternately: the jobs have already been lost, the horrible has already happened, all the stuff is actually made elsewhere anyway. At best you have some overhead and service jobs here. Job loss is policy and not just your consumer behavior.

[bae]

"but if we stopped consuming this way, think of all the jobs that would be lost."

What's your response to that?

If we all stopped breeding recklessly, there'd be plenty of high-paid work for all, and we likely wouldn't make disposable junk and ruin the environment while doing so.

In the meantime, enjoy WalMart...

[catherine]

Really the destruction of the world for jobs is not a good bargain.

That's what I think. Can't we think creatively? So jobs are lost because people don't have to stand there all day checking out people who are buying crap?

Maybe we could become small-scale farmers, or teachers, or craftspeople, or accountants, or builders, or chefs, or doctors, or healers of the alternative kind, and then we could also pitch in to pick up garbage and paint people's houses, and serve food in ambient settings, and all this could be done locally. And if we lower our expectations about what is necessary from life we can lower our expectations about what a living wage is and then it all balances out.

I don't think there is going to be an edict that requires all big box stores to shut down, so I think we can take it all slowly and mindfully and figure it out as we go along.

ETA: I really like iris lilies no-nonsense approach, though. And I get bae's point, although I'm always reticent to jump on that bandwagon having mindlessly bred four awesome children.

[razz]

I put the argument in terms of my needs. My needs are very simple so I buy with care and rarely enter big-box stores as I rarely have the need. I have found that when an argument is made with a self-righteous or judgemental or self-justification bent to it. it irritates so I try to avoid doing so.

[Joyous_5]

I put the argument in terms of my needs. My needs are very simple so I buy with care and rarely enter big-box stores as I rarely have the need. I have found that when an argument is made with a self-righteous or judgmental or self-justification bent to it. it irritates so I try to avoid doing so.

*blushing* thanks for the reminder, Razz and Iris Lily both. I do tend to get on my high horse because I'm very passionate about this issue. But just as when arguing, it's important to use "I" statements not pointing my finger in someone else's face and wagging it.

Catherine, I love your ideas and response. Creativity will save the world! It's true, we need to think beyond what the norm is now.

Bae--I love that image and am forgetting what movie it's from. The Lorax?

Apetheticnomore--I was just reminded yesterday about the importance of fair trade coffee/cocoa in particular. These are both areas I can work on. I'm in love with two brands that are not fair trade (Dove for chocolate and New England Coffee) and need to work on good replacements. Any suggestions? I love the creaminess of Dove chocolate and so far Green & Black and Divine aren't cutting it.

SteveninMN--you said, "If the question really is why you don't buy things at big-box stores, all due respect, but your response is misleading. Much of what most folks buy is the same whether it's bought at the big-box stores or smaller ones or even on-line. A refrigerator is a refrigerator, and buying it at Ma & Pa's Appliance rather than MenLowe's Depot doesn't make it any different*. Ditto with ink-jet cartridges. Or aspirin. There are some products (free-range chicken, etc.) in which it would be much harder to scale up to big-box volume levels. But that's not necessarily the fault of the big box. Pricing may be different (not necessarily in MenLowe's favor, either) and the destinations for the profits and business-support services (printing, office supplies, etc.) are different (with Ma & Pa spending far more of it locally). One store or the other may be more convenient or have customer service you prefer. One organization may treat employees better. But the product is the same. And I don't believe the people who produce any of those items will be any better treated if you don't buy the product at a big-box store -- especially since so many other people do buy there."

I guess what I was saying is that I try not to buy things just to buy things. My MIL, God bless her, is a shopaholic. If she sees a "good deal" on a clock at Walmart she'll buy three because they're pretty and cheap and more is better. I am really against the big box mentality I guess (or just greediness?). Like those stupid Christmas Tree Shop commercials! I can't stand them. Two women ooohing over what a great deal this piece of junk is so let's buy eight and then cackling as they toss them into overflowing carts. Much of what is found at a big box store, in my opinion, is unnecessary. Ink cartridges, yes, needed. Fridge? Yes. But I won't buy them there because I don't vote for the type of corporation that treats employees unfairly. So you're right--it's the same product (in some cases) being sold at two different locations. But there is that added piece of what the company stands for. . . or doesn't.

[SteveinMN]

Much of what is found at a big box store, in my opinion, is unnecessary. Ink cartridges, yes, needed. Fridge? Yes. But I won't buy them there because I don't vote for the type of corporation that treats employees unfairly. So you're right--it's the same product (in some cases) being sold at two different locations. But there is that added piece of what the company stands for. . . or doesn't.

Absolutely -- we're on the same page there! I am careful about where I buy (if I have a choice) and that applies to big boxes and mom-and-pops alike.

I will buy items at Target because I can't recall buying a lot of cr@p over the decades and because they have their headquarters in this area and employ thousands and pay a lot of taxes and donate 5% of profits (and paid employee time) to the communities in which they do business. Yeah, it's a big box and the way they treat employees could be better and if they weren't in Minnesota the equation would be different. But, on balance it works for me. I won't shop at the indie pharmacy down the street from me, preferring to go to one a mile or two further away, because every time I'm in the nearby shop, I get the feeling I'm imposing on their clerks' reverie.

But, as far as buying stuff goes, my definition of simplicity implies buying less, whether it's disposable Chinese-made shoes at Payless or fair-trade made-by-oppressed-indigenous-peoples tchochkes for the coffee table. I buy what I need and apply customer-service and employee-based criteria to whatever that is.

[JaneV2.0]

Is Costco considered a "big box store?" They treat their employees well and don't sell a lot of tchotchkes. I'd shop there more often but it's somewhat out of the way.