Anyone here so disillusioned with politics that they identify as Independent lately?

[ApatheticNoMore]

Well the problem with the war on drugs is:

1) it locks up way too many people and ruins way too many lives
2) plus it's racist (look at who is disproportionately locked up) Also classists but especially racist.
3) And it destroys other countries like Mexico and provides a pretext and cover for U.S. intervention such as in Columbia (which is really a pretext for empire)
4) and it's a pretext for a police state and police militarization (somewhat now usurped by the "war on terror")

Plus of course the big criminals are never prosecuted, HSBC laundering Mexican and Columbia drug cartel money - slap on the wrist. So it's all rather dishonest.

So that's what I'd look at, looking at the war on drugs in that context of the overall harm done by it, to the people in this country, to the rest of the world. But minor drugs, yes well I've seen violence on Xanax that I've never seen on Oxys or even heroine. Women getting beat up, bruises, I feared for myself too. People who would never become "violent drunks" on alcohol, but some of those downers are incredibly ugly at least on certain brain chemistries it seems. Sure they probably took a lot (and not prescribed bought from a drug dealer for whom they did happen to be prescribed :\). As for drug treatment well the government does now pay, if it pays for health insurance, which now seems to pay for drug treatment. It's not my cause, but I wonder if people are actually aware of what drug treatment costs. Over 10k minimum - often like 15k-20k, sure the fancy luxury places will run a lot more, but I'm talking what more ordinary places cost.

[try2bfrugal]

This is a side bar but... Some of you mentioned the war on drugs - exactly what do you mean? Changing prohibition against certain drugs (or all drugs) and making them legal (or at least not felonies)? Changing laws and reducing incarceration for various drug-related crimes? Allowing legal drug trafficking, and/or manufacturing and distribution into the US and controlling it like any other product (and taxing it of course)? Reducing enforcement activities that are Drug related? All of the above? I am never sure about what people mean when they talk about ending "The War On Drugs".

I would say pretty much all of the above.

I would agree with those who feel the war on drugs is a revised form of Jim Crow laws, from the book The New Jim Crow -

"In the book Alexander deals primarily with the issue of the current mass levels of incarceration in the United States (with 5% of the world's population, the U.S. incarcerates 25% of the world's prisoners)^[8] and what she perceives as societal repression of African-American men and, to a lesser degree, Latino men.....Alexander claims the U.S. criminal justice system uses the “War on Drugs” as a primary tool for enforcing traditional, as well as new, modes of discrimination and repression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Jim_Crow

Think about it - 5% of the world's population, yet 25% of the prison population, and that includes third world countries. We have close to 7 times the number of people in prison per capita as Canada. That is $60 billion dollars a year not being spent on more future oriented investments like health insurance for all, rehab programs, schools and job training.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I would say pretty much all of the above.

The war on drugs is a revised form of Jim Crow laws, from The New Jim Crow -

"In the book Alexander deals primarily with the issue of the current mass levels of incarceration in the United States (with 5% of the world's population, the U.S. incarcerates 25% of the world's prisoners)^[8] and what she perceives as societal repression of African-American men and, to a lesser degree, Latino men.....Alexander claims the U.S. criminal justice system uses the “War on Drugs” as a primary tool for enforcing traditional, as well as new, modes of discrimination and repression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Jim_Crow

Think about it - 5% of the world's population, yet 25% of the prison population, and that includes third world countries. We have close to 7 times the number of people in prison per capita as Canada. That is $60 billion dollars a year not being spent on more future oriented investments like health insurance for all, rehab programs, schools and job training.

And yet we tout ourselves as a model for the rest of the world to follow.....Rob

[try2bfrugal]

And yet we tout ourselves as a model for the rest of the world to follow.....Rob

We have been brainwashed to believe that. But I am waking up to the basic facts - 5% of the population, 25% of the prison population. No universal care like almost all other developed countries, and medical costs that aren't just double but many times over what other countries pay.

So who is profiting from extreme inequities that exist in the U.S. compared to other countries? Why are we spending $60 billion dollars on prisons to lock people up for years and ruin their lives over minor drug possession charges? Why does Lipitor cost $6 in New Zealand and $145 in the U.S.? No wonder we are losing the middle class and the wealth gap is growing.

It is actually harder to move up economically in the U.S. days than most other advanced countries, yet most people believe that we have a high degree of social mobility. The reality is that research shows we have the close to the least degree of social mobility of advanced countries.

[ApatheticNoMore]

That is $60 billion dollars a year not being spent on more future oriented investments like health insurance for all, rehab programs, schools and job training.

of course if all those people were released there wouldn't be jobs for them (it masks the real unemployment rate to some degree probably - other than the few prisoners who are involved in prison labor), but that's no reason to lock people up.

[gimmethesimplelife]

We have been brainwashed to believe that. But I am waking up to the basic facts - 5% of the population, 25% of the prison population. No universal care like almost all other developed countries, and medical costs that aren't just double but many times over what other countries pay.

So who is profiting from extreme inequities that exist in the U.S. compared to other countries? Why are we spending $60 billion dollars on prisons to lock people up for years and ruin their lives over minor drug possession charges? Why does Lipitor cost $6 in New Zealand and $145 in the U.S.? No wonder we are losing the middle class and the wealth gap is growing.

It is actually harder to move up economically in the U.S. days than most other advanced countries, yet most people believe that we have a high degree of social mobility. The reality is that research shows we have the close to the least degree of social mobility of advanced countries.

Everything you say is true....and more Americans, ones waking up to the facts, are leaving if they can before things get worse. Bravo to you for waking up! Rob

[try2bfrugal]

it masks the real unemployment rate to some degree probably

That is a good point. You are right. With normal incarceration rates our true unemployment rates would be much higher.

[try2bfrugal]

Everything you say is true....and more Americans, ones waking up to the facts, are leaving if they can before things get worse. Bravo to you for waking up! Rob

After our $50K medical expense year I do not think we can afford to retire in the U.S. Why stay here and risk going bankrupt over medical bills like so many other people do. Fidelity says even with Medicare retirees will need $240K for medical costs and that doesn't include long term care. I would rather spend that money on a condo and live some place with either relatively cheap medical care like Mexico or some country with universal care.

[gimmethesimplelife]

After our $50K medical expense year I do not think we can afford to retire in the U.S. Why stay here and risk going bankrupt over medical bills like so many other people do. Fidelity says even with Medicare retirees will need $240K for medical costs and that doesn't include long term care. I would rather spend that money on a condo and live some place with either relatively cheap medical care like Mexico or some country with universal care.

My sentiments exactly. As I've often posted, I believe that remaining in America is not the most economically viable option over the long term. And I couldn't agree with you more about living somewhere with much lower medical costs. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one here who feels this way. Rob

[ApatheticNoMore]

Well I doubt I'm special enough to get into rich countries with universal care anyway. But a cheap country sure it's doable, but I actually LIVE here. I think retirement is an incredibly iffy prospect in general, sure in the U.S. and not just due to medical care. What happens if say the stock market crashes? Bye, bye, most people's 401ks. But then again I've no particular conviction that the the stock market should be propped up. And the world may not last that long anyway. With climate change and so on is my retirement in 20 or 30 or whatever years really the most pressing political issue for me? I'll breath a sigh of relief if reasonable human life is still doable then.

And much of the whole world is on the same path anyway (just the U.S. is further along). Sometimes I listen to what they say on the web, Australia is basically having campaigns run much like the U.S. now by marketing companies. A whole campaign season went by there where the word "climate change" was the ultimate taboo (sound familiar?). Jobs are becoming more scarce where once there was a culture that celebrated walkabouts, scarcity of job scares them into compliance. Things like the TPP intend to impose more intellectual property enforcements on things like pharma and medical procedures themselves (this won't do anything good for medical costs anywhere - in fact it might be a threat to most countries socialized medicine).