Wants vs. Needs

[miradoblackwarrior]

Hello--
I used to watch Suze Orman, squawk at her viewers "Is that a want or a need?" I say I used to watch her, because she is on cable and I realized that cable tv is a want and I got rid of it! I think she would object!

Seriously, I've been asking myself a great deal lately, is this a "want" or a "need" whenever I am ready to purchase anything. I "want" a car, any car, an old clunker, a spiffy new one, or anything in between. The reality is I "need" to put some money on my bus pass, because it serves me just fine, gets me where I "want/need" to go, and I can keep within my budget.

I "want" cable tv. I "want" to watch the Red Sox play on tv, but the reality is I "need" a couple of AA batteries for my portable radio, with which I can listen to the game. I can catch the highlights on the local, free, tv news I get over the air.

I "want" the internet at home. The reality is I "need" internet, but I can get it at the library. I just have to adjust my schedule and be more flexible. I can do that.

I "want" multi-grain organic bread. Actually, I "need" to stop calling it gourmet bread, because I have become more concerned about my health as I grow older. I am trying to go more organic and cut out junk, so I "need" to learn how to make multi-grain organic bread, because it is better for me than anything I can buy in the store.

As prices continue to rise, and my salary remains the same, I find that I have to ask myself this question more and more. I thank all of you for being here, in the forum. You give me ideas on how to sort out my "needs," and I "want" to thank you for it! ;)
Susan

[flowerseverywhere]

Oh, so true. The vast majority of the world would be thankful to live in a safe structure, have enough food on the table, clean running water, a few extra items of clothing and shoes, be free from religious/sexual/political oppression and be warm enough in the winter.

just the other day a neighbor of mine was telling me about a break in on the next street. Her take was "what do they think we are, rich?" I replied, but we are rich. Every neighbor has more rooms than they need, at least one nice car, access to medical care, (although you might have to pay for it), a closet full of clothes and fridge full of food. We are rich indeed

[Spartana]

I think that most things we in the first world have are really "wants" rather then "needs". Most of us could live happy, safe and satisfying lives with just a tiny room, a few things, our health (and good medical insurance coverage), and the means to live in harmony and safety in our surroundings. It might be a frustrating life to some to do with out all the "stuff" associated with first world living - no car, no internet, computer or cable, no TV, no private home, no new clothes or things, eating at home low on the food chain, doing only free or low cost activities, hobbies and entertainment. For some (me!!) living like that would be very satisfying (and often frustrating too) but I do have many "wants" and am OK with that. Like everyone else, I do ask myself the want vs need question with everything and it usually ends up I can do without most things - or find lower cost options that I am usually OK with.

[catherine]

I remember sitting with my best friend between junior and senior year of high school. We were making out our back-to-school lists, and she said, "I need a white sweater." So I said to her, "So you NEED a white sweater? You NEED it?" And she said, "Yes, catherine, I NEED it." She was kind of smiling when she said it.

I think there are tiers to "Needs": there are needs that are really wants and there are true needs. So a Want/Need would be the internet in your home. A more realistic definition of need would be access to the internet at a place you could get to easily. And then you can question whether you really need the internet at all, because you can certainly survive without it in the "food, shelter, clothing" sense.

The book All Your Worth by Elizabeth Warren and her daughter focuses on the difference between wants and needs and how to budget for them. Her very simple budget plan is: Spend no more than 50% on Needs, 30% on Wants, and 20% on Savings. Keeps budgeting really simple, and also helps you figure out what really is a need vs. a want.

[ApatheticNoMore]

True needs are few and far between. But I think there's a lot of things that may help with human flourishing.

Internet, I am expected to have at home internet connectivity to do this job. Do I *need* a job? Well only in the long run or I'll run out of money, in the short term actually no, in the short term I DO NOT *need* a job. Do I need *this* job? Couldn't I get a job that didn't require home internet connectivity (and 24 hour connectivity when required - a place only open during work hours would not do for *this* job). Could I make no home internet connectivity a requirement when looking for a job? Yes, I could, but it would limit my options some in finding work. But really I love internet and would buy it anyway (and I'd actually prefer a job I never had to be logging in via the work VPN at 1am or something).

Human flourishing what's that? Well maybe aquiring books and learning stuff helps with it (no it may not matter much exactly how this happens - library, used books, kindle). Suppose one came from a background where they had a lot of abuse (this is a hypothetical, I'm not being strongly autobiographical here), then is therapy a want or a need? Well it *might* help one deal better with life, and deal better with raising their own family if they choose to have one etc. (this is a *good* thing, repeating the cycle generation after generation is not a good thing). Etc.. So true needs are indeed very limited, but full human flourishing may be more than just that. Now Madison Avenue will take this obvious truth and try to sell you everything under the sun and convince you it's ALL desperately needed to satisfy a high or low level need. But that's what they do afterall :)

[ToomuchStuff]

At least with the internet access, if you "need" to have access for work, it is tax deductable as a work expense. What I don't get is the expense of a smart phone (internet) and home internet.:confused:
I occassionally need internet for work and work did offer to pay for it before (I didn't want anyone else having controll of it, or what I can, or can't do on it). I have considered getting the lowest tier (wish you didn't have to go in, in person for it), but held off on that, hoping Google Fibre gets to my area soon. (plan on the $300 for five years, at around my original speed, plan)
It is truely the biggest want expense I have had for a while.

[ApatheticNoMore]

At least with the internet access, if you "need" to have access for work, it is tax deductable as a work expense.

only if you itemize or if work expenses (including internet) exceed 2% of your adjusted gross income - both unlikely scenarios for me. Work isn't going to offer to pay for my internet (although they had us watch some creepy security stuff that seemed to imply they had the legal right to monitor any equipment we used to log on to work - ie my personally owned computer that I paid for and own (because they don't provide a work owned laptop/other device for me to take with me - so there's really no choice), but I don't think they actually do monitor me at home or anything especially as I'm not usually even logged into work when at home). The NSA OTOH ...

[creaker]

only if you itemize or if work expenses (including internet) exceed 2% of your adjusted gross income - both unlikely scenarios for me. Work isn't going to offer to pay for my internet (although they had us watch some creepy security stuff that seemed to imply they had the legal right to monitor any equipment we used to log on to work - ie my personally owned computer that I paid for and own (because they don't provide a work owned laptop/other device for me to take with me - so there's really no choice), but I don't think they actually do monitor me at home or anything especially as I'm not usually even logged into work when at home). The NSA OTOH ...

I missed it when my work stopped paying for my internet several years ago (missed the money :-) - their rationale was everyone was getting it anyway at that point so they weren't paying for it anymore. They still pay for my blackberry so I've never had my own cell phone or smart phone, I hope that continues.

[bUU]

I hope that continues.If you put any personal information on your Blackberry, then you may not want the practice to continue. If your employer knows about a device (and if they are paying for it, they know about it), then they have rights and obligations with regard to the device, which may be a bad thing for you. While they cannot physically wrest it from your body, they are allowed to have policies that allow them to confiscate it on demand, and they legitimately can even physically block you from leaving the premises if you refuse to turn the device over, a circumstance that would invariably lead to a police interaction where your device will be confiscated by police until the matter is resolved. And, again, a valid policy would result in the resolution being the device handed over to the employer.

Note that their paying for the device isn't even necessary for this difficulty to surface. For more info, search on "BYOD" and read about the legal ramifications of it.

[catherine]

Yes, one of the benefits of becoming self-employed, in my opinion, was having total autonomy over my work computer/phone, etc. I knew people who had very incriminating search history which I thought was incredibly stupid, and I also know that companies can and do look at your emails at will. Given that, I used to shake my head at people who wrote emails saying negative things about the company or their co-workers. My emails were always lily-white--call me paranoid, but I just think it's prudent.

If I were ever to go back to corporate life, I would retain a personal phone and computer.

[ToomuchStuff]

only if you itemize or if work expenses (including internet) exceed 2% of your adjusted gross income - both unlikely scenarios for me. Work isn't going to offer to pay for my internet (although they had us watch some creepy security stuff that seemed to imply they had the legal right to monitor any equipment we used to log on to work - ie my personally owned computer that I paid for and own (because they don't provide a work owned laptop/other device for me to take with me - so there's really no choice), but I don't think they actually do monitor me at home or anything especially as I'm not usually even logged into work when at home). The NSA OTOH ...

True on the tax side. The log on thing, is basically a man in the middle attack (keystroke logger and IP grabber), which they could also do remote access if you have any remote access software on your computer (ever have IT work on it?).

[awakenedsoul]

Susan,
I don't have t.v. anymore. (I canceled it to save money.) I listen to Suze Orman's podcast every Mon. a.m. It's free. You can download it. I ask myself the same thing each day. ("Is this a want or a need?") She also puts a lot of stress on taking care of your things. I find I'm spending a lot more time on that each day, so that what I have is in good repair, and will last.

Since I've started growing my own fruit, I've had to spend a lot more time weeding and caring for the land. But, food is a need, and this way I can afford organic produce. It really changes your priorities. You don't burn through money like you would if you were unaware.

Hope you start baking your bread, like you mentioned. I do that a couple times a week. It costs me pennies per loaf, and it's really delicious. It's a good feeling to do these sorts of things yourself. I keep toying with switching my Internet to the library. I can bike there is 15 mins. But, I really enjoy having it...(and for now I can afford it.) I guess it's a luxury.

[ApatheticNoMore]

The log on thing, is basically a man in the middle attack (keystroke logger and IP grabber), which they could also do remote access if you have any remote access software on your computer (ever have IT work on it?).

It's VPN through a browser (no, it's not convenient to use).

[Rogar]

I think if you whittle down consumption into needs vs. wants a person could end up with a pretty short list. There is an in between that involves trade off's in time and comfort and might be different for each person. In my realm I consider cable TV a want and is unnecessary and might include other electronic media subscriptions like satellite radio and costly cell phone services. Personally, I listen to music and radio much of the time and consider a decent home music system, not extravagant but a little better than common consumer grade something that enhances my quality of entertainment. If I were not debt free or had difficulty fitting this into a conservative budget this would be an expendable "want".

A big benefit of being FI or early retired is that you have the extra time to spend on time intensive chores that reduce "needs" that fit into time constraints. Gardening, cooking from scratch, eliminating a clothes drier by using clotheslines, commuting and doing errands by bicycle, and the like are all things that I could do on a limited basis in my working years but now do somewhat consistently.

[bUU]

I think if you whittle down consumption into needs vs. wants a person could end up with a pretty short list. There is an in between that involves trade off's in time and comfort and might be different for each person. In my realm I consider cable TV a want and is unnecessary and might include other electronic media subscriptions like satellite radio and costly cell phone services.This raises a big problem with black-and-white perspectives on "needs" versus "wants". In an extreme example, for someone who has been socialized to be dependent on something that could be labeled a "luxury", and lived for decades upon decades with access to that something, does it make sense to call that a "want"? I think not. Yes, if you ignored the humans involved, and just considered them as carnivores consider feed animals, you can whittle down the list of "needs" to a very small list. However, if you acknowledge the human condition, such whittling down doesn't work - thinking, feeling animals are more nuanced than that.

[catherine]

My son has a great quote (I don't know who the original author is, maybe Plato? Oscar Wilde?): A luxury, once tasted, becomes a necessity.

I feel that way about my airline club membership..

[awakenedsoul]

That's really true about the chores, Rogar. Sometimes I feel like I just do hours of chores each day...but it has really reduced my budget. Also, it makes me feel good to look out the window and see a landscaped yard that I've done a bit at a time, year by year. We've got lots of weeds this year, but if I work on them regularly, I can keep the yard in shape. I agree it's nice to have room in the budget for some "treats." When I remember my days of living paycheck to paycheck, my current situation is a huge relief.

[ApatheticNoMore]

True needs are very few, they simply are. I don't think people should necessarily limit themselves to needs if they don't' have to in living though, because the needs versus wants is not just conditioning, it's full human flourishing like I said. So it's something one needs to decide for themselves, but I think to even be in a position to decide well what is beneficial for one to spend money on one needs to cut out the brainwashing that is advertising to the maximum extent possible. I'm pretty extreme ya :)

And yea it's plenty obvious that chores and stuff take time to me. Frankly more time than I have to do all of them or see any way to have :\

[Rogar]

One of the Noble truths of Buddhism is that a main cause of human suffering is desire or craving. I can see some practical applications of this in deciding what are needs and what are wants.

I would not want to be a hunter-gatherer, but from the accounts I've read, they had a fairly relaxed lifestyle. There were the obvious risks of hunting dangerous animals with primitive sticks and stones, but they had short work days and time to hang out in the cave with friends and family. I think a lot of what we call wants comes from envy and seeing what other people have, or wanting to fit in, without really having something that will enhance our quality of life. As much as those of us here aspire to a simple lifestyle, I think some of this happens on a fairly subliminal level. I know I find myself susceptible to that.

[Alan]

A luxury, once tasted, becomes a necessity.

I've felt that way about various things my entire life. Starting with running water and drains inside a residence, eventually morphing to air conditioning and power windows in a car, as well as a host of other luxuries I no longer desire to live without even though I once did.

[awakenedsoul]

The envy thing is weird. I've really noticed it in knitting groups. If I go in wearing a sweater I've made, invariably a woman will say, "I want to make that. I'm going to make that." It's this feeling of, "What's yours is ours." (the group.) One woman copied the fingerless gloves I'd designed and brought them in the next week. (Same color, same style, and same trim as mine.) On that particular day I was finishing a pair of grey and black variegated socks with solid grey heels and toes. She left the group early, and ran to the store to buy grey and black sock yarn. She was eager to copy the socks. I'm wondering if some of that is the follower personality,too. I don't go to that group anymore. It takes the fun out of it if everyone is dressed just like me...
I wonder how many people shop this way? "I want what she has..."

[JaneV2.0]

The envy thing is weird. I've really noticed it in knitting groups. If I go in wearing a sweater I've made, invariably a woman will say, "I want to make that. I'm going to make that." It's this feeling of, "What's yours is ours." (the group.) One woman copied the fingerless gloves I'd designed and brought them in the next week. (Same color, same style, and same trim as mine.) On that particular day I was finishing a pair of grey and black variegated socks with solid grey heels and toes. She left the group early, and ran to the store to buy grey and black sock yarn. She was eager to copy the socks. I'm wondering if some of that is the follower personality,too. I don't go to that group anymore. It takes the fun out of it if everyone is dressed just like me...
I wonder how many people shop this way? "I want what she has..."

I noticed this in quilting, too. It's not my style; I want to do my own thing, but I'd just consider that "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

[ApatheticNoMore]

Maybe avoiding advertising propaganda is just the first step (though yea I may think it's pretty important to avoid constant brainwashing to buy stuff). Then what? Then there's seeking out counter-propaganda (any frugality site - MMM, the simple dollar, whatever you like). But counter propaganda and propaganda are pretty obviously dogmatic (it's: buy! buy! buy! buying will make you happy! OR never buy anything but necessities! the latter is generally less destructive to the planet, at least counter-cultural, and I can see as a short term strategy for a goal, but less so as a lifetime strategy).

The cure for dogmatism is always experience. If you think a car is a necessity, take public transit to work for a month, try roommates, try hanging clothes to dry. Ok I think anything one tries is probably beneficial to some extent. Nontheless, some of these some of us probably never will try, hanging clothes to dry is one thing and roommates another entirely :0!, but you get the drift. How to reverse conditioning is a pretty old and basic psych topic: exposure.


"A luxury, once tasted, becomes a necessity."

and in reverse? Can't this also work in reverse, you decide doing without the luxury isn't so bad?

Anyway one could try giving up luxuries and then one could try spending money. Wait why would anyone try spending money? Uh not if they're broke. But if one is into self-denial it is the counter. Sometimes I have a theory that extreme self-denial in some cases is really just continuing a very sad denial from childhood, but shrug. If your parents never let you take say art or music lessons and you always wanted to and they made you do homework for 4 hours every day instead, if you are an adult with disposable income (the homework worked), and still want to, there's really no point in continuing the denial because "piano lessons are not a necessity" is a true statement. Take the fricken lessons!

Openness to experience. Opportunity may or may not knock but experience is always knocking, and that may be more valuable really.

[Spartana]

and in reverse? Can't this also work in reverse, you decide doing without the luxury isn't so bad?


.Yes!! This is what I do - try first to find a way to do without a "luxury/want" even if it had been part of my life for ever or that it was something I had become accustomed too. I've found that by taking that road first, I have eliminated many things I would consider "wants" from my life, yet it has only improved my life rather than taken from it. And that's the key. One: I have a choice as to what to do away with that is a want rather than a need. Two: if I end up not being better fulfilled in my life by doing away with a "want" then I can always add it back into my life. And Three: I can make many trade-offs between "wants" - getting rid of ones that are sort of not important in order to have more of ones that are. For example, I gave up a somewhat expensive "want" (a sport) and replaced it with a free "want" (a different sport) and that enabled me to save more money to add other "wants" (travel) into my life. So doing away with one "want" didn't create ANY sacrifice or hardship on my part, and actually added a new fun thing to it plus the ability do direct my "want" money to something else even more enjoyable. I do that with everything and my "want list" is very small now as is my "need" list.

[Gardenarian]

Do you think the want/need for activities (sport, travel) is driven by the same factors as the want/need for objects?

I find that the fewer material 'needs', the greater the non-material needs.
I seem to need 'stuff' in my life, whether that stuff is classes, hiking, travel, creativity, work, or becoming more involved in various groups.
Not that the activities are bad things in themselves. I do have a way of overextending myself and ending up with life clutter.

I guess it's all life energy.

It seems like people who have to spend all their time working try to replace missed activities with objects. Vicious cycle.

[Spartana]

Do you think the want/need for activities (sport, travel) is driven by the same factors as the want/need for objects? I don't think it is - unless people are using travel or sports or any sort of activity to fill some sort of void in their life or maybe to project a certain image like they seem to do with shopping or coveting "stuff" they don't really need. For me it's just doing things I enjoy immensely and now have the time to do. No different from someone who wants to read all the great literature or see all the great works of art or architecture. I play sports because I like the challenge, the competition, and especially the camaraderie of doing a shared activity with others. I like travel (and when I say travel I mean generally budget travel that involves a lot of physical activity) as I love to see all the great works of man and nature live and in person. To me it's awe inspiring and uplifting. I also generally try to do travel as self-propelling as possible so that I can challenge myself physically. Something that I highly value since being physically "able" isn't something that wil last forever. When I'm no longer able to do the physical stuff any longer, then I figure I'll have time for those great novels and works of art!