help coming up with alternatives

[rodeosweetheart]

Help me come up with some alternatives

I’m trying to come to terms with the shifting dynamics and shifting realities in my current family constellation. Sorry this is so long.
My son and his wife just announced they are having a baby (yeah!) and are moving in September 1000 miles from where we live. Since one of the reasons we selected this place was because it was nearer to the kids, this feels pretty lousy. He is moving to the city where one of my brothers lives, call him sensible brother.

My dad continues to hang on with his cancer and his other multiple health problems, and my mother continues with some short term memory issues. They live 800 miles away from here.

6 months ago my other brother, who dad has appointed executor of his estate, over objections from my mother, who WAS executor of his estate, and is a lawyer, went out to visit and all hell broke loose. Brother is committed to getting a big inheritance, and has plans for the money, and feels entitled to it. He brought his 20 something daughter, after my mother requested he not do so. It was too much for her. He did it anyway, and he reported to me that niece was laughing at her grandmother and saying that her grandfather “really needed to do something (i.,e, commit to some sort of nursing home) her grandmother.”

When my mother was in earshot, my father, brother, and niece discussed need to “have her committed.” She went upstairs, very upset, and slammed a door a couple of times.
My father then went up and threatened to have her committed for slamming the door.

Later that evening, after grandmother retired for the evening, brother introduced some sort of “drinking game” to my father, played with niece and father. Father is on multiple medications and a frail cancer patient. Mother is wakened by commotion, comes downstairs to find father on floor, bleeding from head. No one calls 911. (I hear about this much later.)
Mother tells brother his daughter is unwelcome in her home, possibly brother is unwelcome in her home, unclear on that.

Mother tells me this around 3 weeks later, says that things have settled down and father no longer threatening to have her committed. She tells me if brother returns to visit, she will leave.
Now, 5 months later, she is telling me that because of this incident, my father insisted she go to geriatric doc who placed her on donepezil, 5 mg a day. She does not know what this is for, thinks it is “for calming her down” because she slammed the door. She says she does not think she needs it, says doc says nothing is wrong with her, and that she is taking it only for peace in the family.

Okay. This is where I need some help coming up with alternatives for dealing with this situation.

What I have done so far—called the sensible brother, who has been trying to get them to buy a place next door to them, so he can help them and watch over them. Dad wants to do this, mother does not want to leave her home and go to wintry northern climate. She told me that all last winter, my father did not go outside and she had to shovel, etc. She is 88. We have talked about ways to encourage this move, but have concluded they want to stay where they are. We are now talking about setting up a driving service for them, which they may need in near future. They are okay with driving and rides now but this could change, and I think we need to line up something for if it does change.

Asked mother if she told brothers about latest hospitalization, which I guess was out patient, so not so bad. She said no, that to tell executor brother would stress her greatly. She is now afraid of him, and does not want him in her home.

Offered to go down there next week, when husband returns from father in law’s funeral out of town and I get the work done on my car it needs to make the trip.

Things I am contemplating
-offering again to move down there in some capacity (this is my least favorite alternative, as would probably involve getting a single wide or camper and installing it on their property, as I have never felt welcome there and being in the house sets off my own major anxiety issues, which affects my health—I have about 60% lung function and am brittle asthmatic.) I have offered in past, offer rejected.
-buying a cheap mobile home down south somewhere and trying to get them to come there for the winter—travel will be difficult for both of them, but daily living easier
-having them come up here is out of question-they won’t do it
-try to establish contact with mother’s new doctor, whose name I don’t know
-try to establish contact with an elder law attorney to find out her rights to remaining in her home
-these are the only things I can think of.
Both are very strong willed and the lifelong dynamic is alcoholic family, with depression in the mix. They both still drink, and my husband is a recovering alcoholic, so living in their house would probably not be a good idea.

[leslieann]

What a difficult situation. I don't have any answers for you; just my empathy....things can get so complicated with elder parents, and it sounds like your mother and father have a high conflict situation anyway. I expect your mother has her own will and her own executor...wills are for individuals not couples. Uprooting yourself doesn't sound likely to generate much benefit for anyone and a lot of stress for you.

Good idea to get your mother's permission to speak with her doctor. It is very hard to know if a person is struggling cognitively and thus wants nothing to do with change, or if other people are acting out and trying to manipulate the person...from where you are it must be impossible to really know what is going on. So talking with the physician might get you some unbiased information.

In the meantime, I am just offering my support and best wishes. We've been through some hard times with older parents for sure.

[rodeosweetheart]

Thank you, Leslieann, good point about talking to the doctor and about manipulation and difficulty with information bias,.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Well there is bringing in assistance to visit them in their home a few times a week and help them out if they need it (yes the cost is often prohibitive but so are nursing homes and it might be a much happier alternative - homes can be bleak enough if you don't want to be there, I think some people lose the will to live in them). Establishing contact with the doctor might help, at least you'll get a true picture of things.

I wonder what your mother's actual cognitive state is. Is she reliable when she says your dad was bleeding on the floor or is she mentally gone enough not to trust her account of things?



-offering again to move down there in some capacity (this is my least favorite alternative, as would probably involve getting a single wide or camper and installing it on their property, as I have never felt welcome there and being in the house sets off my own major anxiety issues, which affects my health—I have about 60% lung function and am brittle asthmatic.) I have offered in past, offer rejected.

Both are very strong willed and the lifelong dynamic is alcoholic family, with depression in the mix. They both still drink, and my husband is a recovering alcoholic, so living in their house would probably not be a good idea.

That the family was dysfunctional is obvious, the adult dynamics above (if not just the product of Alzheimers and other senility which by itself makes people's brains off) are extremely unlikely to have come from a functional family! It just screams. Brother lets his father lie on the floor with his head bleeding? WTF. It's horrible. Was he just too drunk to notice? Father uses the threat of being sent to a home as an emotional cudgel against mother? WTF. Sometimes sending the elderly to homes is necessarily, but it's not something to be used manipulatively in emotional games (nor is the aging process something one understands generally at 20). You certainly have a right to protect yourself from having to live in a dysfunctional situation that constantly opens old wounds!!

I wouldn't expect any miracles from donepezil, I haven't seen any. But maybe it's better than a placebo, so we are told, I guess it's probably harmless. There probably are alternative protocols of greater effectiveness (with supplements, with BDNF, even exercise if it's possible, etc.) but you'd have to find a doc to try them.

[new2oregon]

It sounds like your parents need someone looking after their best interest. If your father dies and your brother inherits the money whats going to happen to your mother. Was your father Drunk when he put your brother in charge? If they end up in assisted living because they can't take care of themselves there won't be anything left to inherit but at least they would be taken care of. It sounds like your brother wants to get his hand on the money and ship the mother off. Hope you can find some help. I hate when families get destroyed because of greed.
If people are married and one dies the other should be taken care of.

[rodeosweetheart]

Yes, very dysfunctional. Mother's report reliable as brother reported same, without the blood, about a week later--just "dad fell on the floor." He was very sheepish and has not talked about parents since. Her report was quite detailed, with details of the "drinking game" that my brother introduced into the family dinner, with details of different bottles, wine testing, perhaps? Same brother did a faceplant 2 weeks prior on the street--delayed his trip in fact, as he had fallen in street while returning from a celebratory dinner, and waited to go to the hospital til next day since thought he would get poor treatment due to fact he had been drinking. So yeah, I believe her. And WTF, indeed--I grew up with this, and I assure you, she is to be believed. Which is why I would like to protect her if I could.

[rodeosweetheart]

New2, I fear that exactly what you say will come to pass. Wish they would go happily to assisted living, but don't think that will happen. And yes, they really, really need someone neutral looking after their best interests--I feel that my brother quite capable of elder abuse, wish to stave that off.

[Gardenarian]

My sympathies. What a tough situation. Your brother sounds like my three all rolled together.

[iris lilies]

While you are on the good side of your mother, get whatever health documents signed by her that are needed to allow you access to her health information. "Talking to her doctor" will yield very little, he can't tell you much without her permission, and if you have permanent permission in documentation, that will be better.

I don't understand the idea of your "father's estate" vs your "mother's estate." Doesn't she have legal interest in his assets? What assets would your bad brother be managing as executor?

[awakenedsoul]

I have seen something similar in my family. I have documented it, and sent emails saying, "This is elder abuse." Naming the behavior, in writing, shows them that you take it seriously. The drinking is so much of it. If the parents are alcoholic, they often choose an alcoholic adult child to put in charge of the estate. I talked to an attorney about it, and he told me the only thing I could do would be to put what I have in a trust. He said it wouldn't be a bad idea, in case what I thought was happening, happened. They've backed off. Power does strange things to people. The attorney said that there's a lot of this happening now, with this economy. The person in charge of my parents' estate actually said to me, "She's going in a home!" after my mother broke her pelvis. It was really sickening. I sent my father an email offering to come help, and he took care of her at home. Sometimes siblings think that you will join them...they are so eager to get their hands on their parents' money. As my father said, "We might need it. You never know what's going to happen."

Sorry you're going through this. It's difficult.

[rodeosweetheart]

Thank you, Gardenarian.

Iris, that is a good idea about getting something in writing from Mom.

Iris, she has legal interest in some of his assets. They own the house together. I think that is why my brother is trying to have her declared incompetent, so he can have control of the house, and have her out of it. I think he wants to cut her out of the house somehow, by having her declared incompetent, then maybe giving it all over to dad? not sure

There are some cds that are in dad's name only. I know that he went with dad to the bank, without mother, and did something with the cds. It used to be that whoever predeceased inherited everything else. But brother took dad to lawyer and changed that, changed his will, at least that is my understanding.

She actually has more money in her name than he has, which is why I think brother wants to have her declared incompetent, to take her money.

There, I've said it, perhaps I am wrong, but that is what it feels is happening.

I have been asking her for years to get an estate planner, have a non family member set something up. Because she is a lawyer, she found that insulting.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Are the documents you need durable power or attorney or healthcare or finances or does that come later? Some kind of documents that give you power if the parents are incapacitated. I'm supposed to have some of those documents, but sibling got so angry and threw a snit that the documents lie in wait and now noone has that power. Noone is going to be able to make the decisions if the need arises. And I know I'll have to mount a heck of a fight again for them, I can barely fight these battles and live my life (not a battle sibling has I guess as they have never earned a $ in their life and sit around and watch t.v. all day. So why shouldn't they be the perfect candidate to be in charge of finances and paying bills as they've never paid any? >8) ). I'm not after money, I find it far more sensible to expect to inherit nothing of any worth when that day comes (too easy to spend it all long before then), the docs aren't a will which splits whatever exists evenly anyway, they are just responsibility without reward, but someone needs to do it. I doubt even sibling is after money, they are just playing a petty jealousy game, which they have all the time in the world to play, regardless of consequences. I guess I'm lucky none of that stuff is needed right now, or in any immediately foreseeable future as it's going to be a long fight.

[catherine]

Achh.. this stuff makes me just sigh and throw up my hands, having had generations of alcohol-related issues on both my family of origin's side and my in-law's side.

So I'm inclined to go the route of detach as much as you can. I would NOT throw tons of YOUR life energy into this, I hate to say. Love them, support them, but keep a healthy distance. Do NOT move yourself down there for the long haul. Do not do anything to compromise your DH's sobriety and your and his serenity.

What, specifically, needs done? How can it be done remotely, through the driving service, as you mentioned, or home health care?

I think getting an attorney might be the best idea, just to protect all interests involved, from the perspective of your parents' intentions with regard to the will and any future inheritance. I'd start there.

Best wishes, rodeosweetheart. It's tough, and alcohol makes it ugly.

[rodeosweetheart]

Thanks Awakened, I did not know about the alcoholic parents tending to pick the alcoholic offspring to handle things, but it makes a lot of sense.

APN, I hear you about difficulty getting the documents. I do not know how to get their health care directives, for example. I have broached the subject with father, but he has not been very forthcoming. When he got his cancer diagnosis, he annnounced that none of us were to discuss it with him, mention it, etc.

"So I'm inclined to go the route of detach as much as you can. I would NOT throw tons of YOUR life energy into this, I hate to say. Love them, support them, but keep a healthy distance. Do NOT move yourself down there for the long haul. Do not do anything to compromise your DH's sobriety and your and his serenity."
Thanks, Catherine, I think you are right.

"What, specifically, needs done? How can it be done remotely, through the driving service, as you mentioned, or home health care?"

Only driving will be on the horizon, for now. I'd just like to plan for the future, for when things get harder for them.

[iris lilies]

In decision making I like to think about what the worst case scenario would be. In this case, what would that be in a living situation and do they have income to cover that? If the bad brother is going to pizz away assets as executor (and sure, there are legal boundaries for that, but I would imagine getting those boundaries enforced is nearly impossible) do they have sufficient income to live in an assisted living situation? Not a nursing home--that's bloody expensive. But the Assisted places I know are $35,000 annually, that includes meals and a little housekeeping; that is for 1 person, however.

I would guess that alcohol impairment would limit their choices of that kind of place, though, sad to say.

When my elderly mother with dementia was writing checks for everything that door-to-door salesmen would sell her, we talked to her financial guy and asked: what is the worst case scenario here? At what point will you notify us that she's throwing money out the door? And he said: about $4,000 - $5,000 would catch his eye and he would call my brother or me us to flag us to this activity. We were both named on the account so that's why he would tell us.

This amount was acceptable to me, a risk that was ok, so I stopped worrying about it. If the money bleed reached that point defined above, I would deal with it then to stop the bleed. My sister-in-law likes to get involved in people's business and has a lower threshold of tolerance for this kind of thing, so she was always hyper upset when our mother blew hundreds of dollars. But it was our mother's money, I thought that we had to step back and let her do what she wants with it within reason. Defining those boundaries was useful to me. And besides, getting involved at lower levels of money bleed would just take up space in my life and I wasn't interested.

[rodeosweetheart]

"In decision making I like to think about what the worst case scenario would be. In this case, what would that be in a living situation and do they have income to cover that?" \

Yes, assisted living might be down the road, but neither of them wants to do that. I guess I am concerned that bad brother will try to have mom declared incompetent in order to steal from her and force her into some kind of assisted living situation. I guess worst case scenario involves her being bullied and manipulated and stripped of her dignity by the bad brother, influencing her husband.

Agh. I can also think of many other bad scenarios, unfortunately.

[iris lilies]

"In decision making I like to think about what the worst case scenario would be. In this case, what would that be in a living situation and do they have income to cover that?" \

Yes, assisted living might be down the road, but neither of them wants to do that. I guess I am concerned that bad brother will try to have mom declared incompetent in order to steal from her and force her into some kind of assisted living situation. I guess worst case scenario involves her being bullied and manipulated and stripped of her dignity by the bad brother, influencing her husband.

Agh. I can also think of many other bad scenarios, unfortunately.

I hope a judge would see through your badnick brother's efforts to declare your mother incompetent, especially if your mom's 2 other children said she is not incompetent.

Also, I don't see how forcing her into assisted living would be a bad thing. Your comments about you brother abusing your mom is more worrisome. If he visits or lives with her, either with or without the presence of your father, he has plenty of opportunity to steal from her and abuse her, as you envision. She'd be safer in an assisted living facility, but the badnicks seldom want their elderly relatives to go there because that costs money, and that money is what they are after.

If you mother truly has assests that are completely separate from those of you father, does she trust you enough to have your name on the assets as owner as well? I wonder if that would be a good idea, for you to have control over "her" assets.

[rodeosweetheart]

You have raised some good questions, IL, and I will have to ponder them. Thank you.

At this point in time, assisted living is not something she wants to do. If she did, that would be easy, not a problem, but she is very happy in her home and wants to stay there. She is fine there so long as dad is there. I think none of us thought he would live so long after his cancer diagnosis, and I think they are having in there for each other, which is a good thing.

If he goes in for another hospitalization, goodnik brother and i have agree dthat one of us goes down there to help her out and reevaluate situation.