View Full Version : Where do you stand on this nutrition issue?
Okay it seems as thought athere are two ditinct camps on the best nutirition plan:
1. Saturated fats/good fats are not harmful to health or cardio health -- eat as much as you want within reason but avoid simple carbs and limit most other carbs -- and you'll be healthy. Avoid trans-fats -- they are the bad carbs. Avoid sugar. Taubes and others advocate this. Wheat Belly advocates.
2. Fats are bad -- avoid them, eat a vegetable rich diet -- and lots of whole carbs are okay. Eat this way and you'll be healthy. Avoid sugar. Colin Campbell, Ornish, Mc Dougall advocate this
Does that sum it up?
Which do you think is more correct? Which way do you eat? Are you healthy and without medical problems???
When I went from a fairly strict low fat sorta-vegetarian Diet #2 on your list, I lost about 60 pounds and my health, strength, and cognition improved massively.
I now eat a vaguely paleo/primal diet, with moderate consumption of other foods, and life is good.
I suspect different things work for different people.
Thanks for chiming in...that's been my experience, too. My HDL shot up once I added in eggs and some animal protein to my mostly vegetarian previous diet.
My main challenge now is portion control. I love to cook--and to eat. Food just tastes so darn good. Especially locally-sourced organic food.
ApatheticNoMore
5-7-14, 9:09pm
How about eat whatever you like and let goddess sort it out? :)
Though I don't actually put any random junk in my mouth 24/7 (so my actual diet is probably a bit more conscious than that statement sounds - I don't eat much wheat, I don't usually eat foods that make me FEEL bad physically or overdo those that make me feel bad in excess, I add spices and other foods specifically for their phytonutrients, I try to avoid processed garbage), but I don't stress MACROnutrients is all (neither the baked potatoe nor the butter/sour cream on it). Portion awareness is good (but the extreme weight obsession of society not so much so). Yes I'm healthy but I'm not old enough not to be.
Blackdog Lin
5-7-14, 9:42pm
There will never be a way of knowing if I'm right, as the concensus changes so much - but count me in on #1. With the addition of much fruits and vegetables. That is the direction that I'm trying to guide our diet toward, as I believe it's the correct answer.
I am healthy and without much in the way of medical problems, DH not as much. But we both have other lifestyle issues, besides diet, that affect our health. (Smoking and/or drinking and/or exercise, anyone?) :)
Miss Cellane
5-8-14, 7:23am
The thing is, you need some fat in your diet for health. Not a lot, but some is necessary.
I dislike the way certain food groups get demonized by the popular medical press in the US. Many years ago, I read an editorial in the Philadelphia Inquirer which held the viewpoint that any mother who fed her children real butter ought to be arrested and jailed for child abuse. Margarine was clearly the healthier alternative; butter was just full of things that would kill you. Now it's wheat--every "healthy" diet I've heard about in the past few months assumes wheat will kill you.
While I agree that the modification of wheat over the decades has probably caused the recent rise in people who have dietary issues with wheat and/or gluten, I can't agree that everyone needs to stop eating wheat completely. Wheat has been the "staff of life" for millennia. I need more proof that this isn't just the latest fad.
We, and by that I mean medical science, still hasn't figured out the best diet.
And I don't think there's any one diet that going to work for everyone. We are all so different in how we respond to different foods.
I attempted to be a vegetarian twice, for 4 years one time and 3 years the second time. Both attempts left me very anemic, despite my best efforts and the best efforts of my doctor and a nutritionist the second time around. Taking massive amounts of iron supplements did not help. Basically, I do best with a small amount of animal protein in my diet. Not a lot. About five meals a week have either chicken, beef, pork or fish in them. And yet I know many people who flourish on a strictly vegetarian or vegan diet and who have none of the issues I had.
My current diet does not exclude any food group. Mostly, I try to have a variety of foods in my weekly menu. I'll vary the carbs--bread one meal, rice the next, a sweet potato the next. Vary the fruit and vegetable colors--banana for breakfast, carrots and green pepper strips for lunch, broccoli and tomatoes for dinner. Some dairy in the form of cheese and yogurt. Lots of vegetables and legumes. Some meat. Some pasta. Lots of fruit.
Mostly, I try to buy ingredients and cook my own food. I think that is the healthiest thing you can do. Sure, you could be making potato chips at home, but a) they are probably healthier than the ones you buy and b) they are a lot of work to make, so you don't make them that often and you don't eat them mindlessly the way you eat chips out of a bag.
So, while I don't make potato chips at home (my brother does that), I do make a batch of cookies or brownies every week and I enjoy them. I bake most of my own bread and pizza dough. I put maple syrup on my oatmeal, and raisins and cinnamon, and it tastes good. And maybe the oatmeal and cinnamon are good for me, too.
The only food I don't eat is eggs. And that's because I don't like them at all. Mixed into a batch of chocolate chips cookies, where I can't taste or smell them, fine. On their own--shudder.
My blood pressure is low. My cholesterol numbers are good. I'm exercising more these days to lose some weight, but the extra weight is more the effect of a sedentary job and a couple of years of eating for comfort/deal with the stress of a horrible job than my diet itself. I have no major medical issues, and I'm in my 50s. So for the moment, I'm content with what I'm doing.
I like the Omnivore's Dilemma approach - eat good food in natural state that your grandparents would recognize, mostly plants and not too much. I have to get back to the focus on portion control as food is really so delicious and enjoyable on this approach. My weaknesses are fruit and good artisan breads.
My current diet does not exclude any food group. Mostly, I try to have a variety of foods in my weekly menu.
This is my approach too. Moderation taken from both sides. Eating is one of the true pleasures of life so it irks me that we have allowed it to be filled with such angst. On occasion, I succumb to a sugary dessert (last one was cranberry bread pudding with whipped cream). And I joke that I have two hamburgers with fries a year. I have never been a big meat or cheese eater but have small amounts throughout the week - much less than when I was young. I rarely eat bread anymore but love whole grains in salads or entrees. I tend to judge my general health by observing things like hair, skin and nails - and joint pain. So far, so good.
The best diet seems to be a moving target that I have trouble tracking. From the best I can figure, the Ornish approach is the best for people with risk of heart disease. I have not yet been convinced that a diet with any significant amount of animal fat or high cholesterol products like eggs is good. #2 is the closest to my ideal diet. I am healthy and on no medications.
I have problems cutting out carbs and still eat more whole grain breads and pastas than I should, but think it is ok as long as it is properly balanced with protein and includes plenty of fiber and leafy greens. There are plenty of protein sources that do not include animal fats or animal products and having a significant amount of meats raised and processed outside of the industrial farm systems is just out of my budget.
I'm a fan of Pollen and it will be interesting to see how his approach might change as the Wheat Belly trend gathers more steam and information. The case against sugar seems pretty well demonstrated, but other carb sources using whole grains or including sugars close relative, fruits, seems less proven.
After years of experimenting, I'm solidly in the #1 camp--with plenty of vegetables and some fruit, only occasional non-gluten grains. Like Pinkytoe, I judge my diet by monitoring my hair and nails; it's really obvious when I'm not getting enough protein. I have no fear of saturated fat.
Fructose is implicated in liver damage and grains of various kinds in insulin overproduction (in susceptible people). Insulin overproduction may be associated with dementia, "type 3 diabetes."
I suffer the typical ills associated with being sedentary (and old)--aches and pains--but take no drugs beyond the occasional aspirin.
People are biochemically very different, so no one diet will work for everybody. I believe that, in time to come, babies will be food-typed at birth just as they are blood-typed now. That said, there are things that I do think will work for everybody: cut sugar, don't use industrial seed oils, cut processed starches, choose single ingredient foods, cook from scratch, choose animal source foods from pastured animals.
I think one should be careful with wheat, for a couple of reasons. Northern Europeans and Africans have not been eating wheat for more than a few hundred years. People of Middle Eastern descent have had a much longer time to adapt to it and are usually fine with wheat. Patrick Simoons' maps correlating incidence of coeliac disease with time since wheat was introduced to the population are very informative. Most of the bread eaten in early times was made from barley and rye, or oats. Even in the Middle Ages, only the wealthy and the nobility could afford wheat bread, and only the wealthiest ate white bread. In industrialized countries, cheap white bread only became available to the masses with the advent of the massive mechanized mills. That's reason 1. The second is that modern wheats, produced since the late 1970s, with a further burst of modifications since the 1990s, are nothing like ancient grains. They're far higher in starch, lower in protein, and very much higher in gluten. People with gluten sensitivity can often eat the ancient wheats, but not the modern wheats.
Where dietary fat is concerned, humans started eating animal fats in quantity around 2 million years ago, and we probably owe our big brain to that dietary shift. Our brains are more than 60% fat and our central nervous systems up to 70%. Our cell membranes also incorporate considerable fat. These fats are DHA and EPA, essential fatty acids of the omega-3 class. Deficiencies in these are associated with neurological, cognitive, and depressive disorders. Some people are better at converting ALA to DHA, and will do fine as long as they get enough ALA in their diets, while others have such low conversion rates that they need to get DHA and EPA pre-formed. That's a matter of individual trial and experience.
More on fat: saturated fats from pastured animals have very different lipid profiles to those of CAFO animals. The fat from pastured animals is, for example, much higher in CLA, which is strongly associated with good cardiovascular health. This is also true of dairy products. Whether or not a person will thrive on dairy products depends on their lactase-persistence state. If you're have no copies of that gene, it's probably better to avoid dairy foods; one copy, eat as much as is comfortable for you; two copies, no problem. While lactase is the element that gets fingered, I suspect that casein may be problematic for people who're not lactase-persistent. As yet, I'm basing this idea on the fact that casein occurs only in milk, and that people whose ancestry doesn't include dairy foods may not be able to properly process casein.
Speaking of gene copy number, individual starch tolerance, whether the starch comes from grains or starchy veggies, probably also depends on this factor. Salivary Amylase 1 copy number is really variable in humans, ranging from 2 to 15. Groups whose traditional diet is low in starch have low copy numbers, while groups whose traditional diet is high in starch have high copy numbers. Again, this is variable within the group, but the trend is very definite: for example, the Hadza, who eat a lot of wild tubers, average 6 copies of the gene, as do the Japanese, whose traditional diet includes a lot of rice and millet, while rain-forest foragers have fewer copies. Chimpanzees have only 2 copies, while bonobos have 4 - but these are corrupted and non-functional.
Dietary cholesterol has been shown to play only a small role in levels of blood cholesterol, and studies testing egg-eating generally show improvement in health markers for people eating eggs daily. Our livers are the cholesterol factory of our bodies. If we eat a lot of cholesterol, the liver slacks off, and speeds up production if we eat little cholesterol. Our brains need a fair amount of cholesterol for maintenance and functioning. Back to genetics! There's a gene involved, and it's variable in copy number and functioning. This one is called apo-E3, and it's not only unique to humans, but is involved with cholesterol transport. For people with few copies, or corrupted versions (our genes can get corrupted just like computer software), dietary cholesterol is more problematic. Diabetics do show sensitivity to eggs, and should avoid them. Again, eggs from free-ranging birds have a different and better nutritional profile than those from CAFOs.
The fruit question is one of the most vexed. The first thing to be noted is that modern fruits, especially varities produced in the last hundred years or so, contain far more sugar than wild fruits, and the kind of sugar is very different. Wild fruits tend to be high in glucose, and low in fructose and sucrose. Cultivated fruits are low in glucose, have more fructose, and tend to be very high in sucrose. Cultivated fruits are also lower in fibre and protein. Again, there's individual variation in ability to manage sugars. Some Inuit populations produce zero sucrose, as do people with CSID. Fructose-tolerance is also highly variable. Some people cannot tolerate fructose at all; my own tolerance is very low. This may explain why some people develop non-alcoholic fatty liver disease on a high-fruit diet while others don't. Glycaemic index should be taken into consideration not only for fruits but for sugar-rich veggies. TripleSweet and Candy corns are shockingly high in sugar.
Then there's enterotype, which has to do with gut microbiome. There are three basic kinds of gut bacterial colony, and this really affects what an individual can eat.
And then there's colon variation! Fibre is fermented in the colon and converted to volatile fatty acids that are absorbed directly into the blood through the colon walls. Again, bacteria are involved, but the shape and size of the colon also matter.
And there's ethnic extraction to consider. For example, the Japanese have a gene that allows them to digest seaweeds. I'd like to know whether this is also the case for groups like the Hebridean and Shetland islands, who have traditionally eaten a lot of seaweeds.
With the Ornish intervention, it should be noted that fat restriction is only one in a whole suite of interventions. This dietary camp cuts out sugars and processed starches, eliminates industrial seed oils, forbids smoking and alcohol, prescribes increased exercise, and provides ongoing personal counselling. It's hard to be sure, in such a comprehensive approach, that fat restriction is the single factor responsible for the improved health of the people who stick with the programme. Also, this is a high-fibre diet, and as discussed above, fibre is fermented into fats in the colon, so people may still be getting a lot of fat indirectly from their diets.
Obviously, where I stand on this question is that each person should be aware of his/her body's responses to diet, and be flexible enough to change that diet over time as the body's responses change.
My own diet is high-fat, adequate protein, low-starch, low-sugar, high-fibre. I eat, in descending order of quantity low-glycaemic index veggies, meat, eggs and dairy products, small quantities of low-gluten grains, and a little fruit. My metabolic markers are very good.
I've been doing a kind of modified paleo diet - vegetables, fruits, nuts, fish, chicken, some eggs, very little dairy. No flour, no added sugar, no beans, corn, grains (except for sprouted bread), white potatoes. I've been working from the position that (hi - my name is --- and) I am a total carb addict, so I've cut that way back. The huge plus is my constant craving has decreased enormously. I've lost about 20 pounds since the beginning of the year.
That's a pretty amazing summary Suzzane! Thanks. I should study up on this more. One of my questions might be, what high protein low carbohydrate vegetarian or vegan foods exist for an interesting and varied diet? I eat a lot of legumes, which are sort have a sort of low GI, but not as carb free as meat or eggs. I suppose there are nuts, which are also pretty high in fats and calories and wouldn't seem appropriate for a meal. What about a person who is physically active. In the old days there was such a thing as carbo loading before an active day of vigorous excersize? I don't know if that is out-dated thinking in modern times.
That's a pretty amazing summary Suzzane! Thanks. I should study up on this more. One of my questions might be, what high protein low carbohydrate vegetarian or vegan foods exist for an interesting and varied diet? I eat a lot of legumes, which are sort have a sort of low GI, but not as carb free as meat or eggs. I suppose there are nuts, which are also pretty high in fats and calories and wouldn't seem appropriate for a meal. What about a person who is physically active. In the old days there was such a thing as carbo loading before an active day of vigorous excersize? I don't know if that is out-dated thinking in modern times.
Vegetarians and vegans who're not carb-tolerant have a harder time getting adequate quantities and good balance of amino acids than those who are more biologically blessed. Ovo-lacto and pesco-vegetarians are in a much better situation in this regard. For vegans, chlorella algae may be a good choice as a protein source, provided one can digest them! The legumes are variable in starch content, so I'd pick those that are lowest. Tofu is pretty good, too, though there are some concerns about the safety of high intake of unfermented soy, especially for people whose traditional diet didn't include a lot of soy. It's a good idea to ensure adequate iodine intake if using soy milk or tofu; those much-vaunted Okinawans eat a lot of seaweed, and often simmer their tofu in broth made from seafoods.
Carbo-loading is again really dependent on personal biochemistry, as there is a range of glycogen disorders. Some people can't store glycogen, while others can store it, but can't access it, while yet others burn through it very fast and zonk out really quickly after starting vigorous exercise even though they work really hard at training. Our bodies are generally very good at using fatty acids and ketone bodies for energy (we do it every night while we're sleeping), so some people do much better with fats than carbs in terms of hard physical work. For hypoglycaemics, carb-loading is a very bad idea. The resultant blood-sugar drop is very unpleasant, at the least. Sports medicine is a good source of information here.
Suzanne that is some excellent info and I love your conclusion. Thanks.
I eat everything in moderation and only eat twice a day. This works well for me. I feel good and it is has been easy to maintain my weight over the years eating this way, even though I'm currently in a wheelchair fulltime with little exercise - I have not gained any weight...
ApatheticNoMore
5-11-14, 12:40am
I eat everything in moderation and only eat twice a day. This works well for me.
Which two meals? Lunch and dinner? I like this - mostly because i'm fascinated by eating and not eating (fasting) I guess. Of course I'm home pretty ridiculously late from work, so my schedule might make it impossible to do this absolutely and work stress makes me hungry (anything is easy to do on a weekend). But I do like something in that direction.
fitasafiddle
5-11-14, 7:05am
different diets suit different people and you need to be in tune with your body to know what is good for it.
I used to think I was physically ok when I used to have very little fruit or salad/green vegies. Then I pretty much forced myself to eat more greens in particular - I didn't realise it right away because I was thinking more about the taste and if i liked it - but after a while i noticed by body was responding and i felt better. Now, if i don't have enough greens or fruit, i can sense my body is not happy, so i'll adjust my diet and i can literally feel my body respond positively.
on the flip side, if i eat too much processed or say deep fried food, i can feel my body and general wellness suffer.
on the fats issue i'm aligned with the view that says there are good fats and we need a bit of them, and not too much of the bad fats.
I eat very high carb and low fat vegan diet, with almost no processed food and no added salt whatsoever, predominantly raw whenever possible and convenient (when I head out for couple of days long solo hiking trip with no options to get fresh supplies I simply have to accept eating more dried and cooked food than usual). I found out it works very well for me and can feel it especially when I am physically more active.
However I think that there is no one diet that would work for everyone and I am sure that just as I found a diet on which I feel and perform the best, others have found different diets that work magic for them or that they simply don't want to change. I may have some ethocal issues regarding their choices of food but I often have them with my own food choices so what can I say.
Fats are good. Carbs are bad. That's what has worked for me.
Gardenarian
5-11-14, 12:56pm
I try not to eat a lot of starchy foods (like grains.) And I am vegetarian, more for spiritual/ethical reasons than for health. I have tried lots of different ways of eating (elimination diets) and nothing has had the least effect on my health, at least that I could notice.
I occasionally fast - usually when I find myself eating mindlessly, or just feel out of touch with my body. I usually fast for only one or two days, though I have done as long as a week in the past. It is not difficult and is a good way to put food in perspective.
awakenedsoul
5-11-14, 3:46pm
I'm healthy and without medical problems. I don't really eat either of those ways. My eating has changed as I've gotten older. When I was young, I made huge salads for lunch and dinner, was vegetarian, and ate lots of fruit, bagels and desserts. I also drank too much coffee. I was very healthy and lean, though. I was dancing constantly, and it was easy to stay in great shape. Now that I'm older, I'm eating chicken and meat more regularly. I guess every other day or so. I make lots of brown rice and barley, casseroles, (macaroni and cheese, tuna and noodles, lasagne, hamburger and gravy over mashed potatoes, etc.) I've cut down my coffee to two cups a day, and I've cut down my sugar to a couple of treats, (cookies or truffles) a day. I bake french bread every week, drink soy milk for hormone balance, and eat organic veggies in season from our local organic co op. They pick what we get, I eat it. I'm very healthy and muscular. The only weakness is that I have a few aches and pains. But, I think as an ex-professional dancer, that's par for the course. I've tried dietary changes, but have gone with moderation. I don't drink alcohol or smoke. I love food and I have a passion for cooking and baking.
awakenedsoul
5-11-14, 3:52pm
Oh, I also eat nuts every day. I'm almost 50, still have my period, and haven't had any hot flashes or night sweats. I graze all day. I'm 5'8" and weigh 116 lbs. I've never been one to follow diets. I did read up on menopause, though. I didn't want to go through all the madness I was seeing in my students. I think a lot of them were starving themselves and then overeating. I think attitude, exercise, habits, self care, and what you think and say have just as much to do with our health as what we eat. Same with the company we keep...(my 2 cents...)
new2oregon
5-11-14, 4:39pm
Oh, I also eat nuts every day. I'm almost 50, still have my period, and haven't had any hot flashes or night sweats. I graze all day. I'm 5'8" and weigh 116 lbs. . I think a lot of them were starving themselves and then overeating. I think attitude, exercise, habits, self care, and what you think and say have just as much to do with our health as what we eat. Same with the company we keep...(my 2 cents...)
I agree with you on that, What you are doing seems to be working for you. They say eating more small meals is better than stuffing yourself. A good attitude about life helps to be healthy.
In November of 2012 I was about 186, my cholesterol was 247 and triglycerides 186.
January I went low carb - my own version, after a last hurrah of bread, chinese, mexican, pizza.
In the third week of January - less than 3 weeks of being low carb I was about 198 lbs,(my last hurrah lasted a while) my cholesterol was 197 and triglycerides 86.
i did not have high blood pressure at either point.
awakenedsoul
5-27-14, 10:26am
I agree with you on that, What you are doing seems to be working for you. They say eating more small meals is better than stuffing yourself. A good attitude about life helps to be healthy.
It seems to make it much easier on your systems. I also really follow what energizes me. I think when we are enthusiastic, our bodies absorb nutrients more efficiently. I avoid situations that depress or deaden me. You can feel it when you're on track. To me, it's about so much more than food. (people, location, work, home, etc...)
Prince Kong
5-28-14, 7:25am
Okay it seems as thought athere are two ditinct camps on the best nutirition plan:
1. Saturated fats/good fats are not harmful to health or cardio health -- eat as much as you want within reason but avoid simple carbs and limit most other carbs -- and you'll be healthy. Avoid trans-fats -- they are the bad carbs. Avoid sugar. Taubes and others advocate this. Wheat Belly advocates.
I definitely agree with this one. People are too quick to shout 'Bad! Cut it out! Ban it!' When it reality, it is all about eating sensibly and in moderation. Everthing in 'moderation' as my grandfather used to say!
gimmethesimplelife
5-28-14, 11:49am
I look at it this way - the way I'm eating now - more fruits and veggies, some organic, some not - has to be healthier than how I lived so many years before on mostly fast food and processed foods. Yuck. I don't fit strictly into any one diet but have removed a lot of the junk from my life. I don't find it ironic that I've had health issues lately, either, as that prior way of life is just catching up to me it seems. Just good that I am not continuing it.
I am also eating some berries every day, along with one to two ounces of nuts. And I have this book about making kale smoothies, I am going to try that as kale is just supposed to be incredible for health. Rob
frugal-one
5-28-14, 5:12pm
I look at it this way - the way I'm eating now - more fruits and veggies, some organic, some not - has to be healthier than how I lived so many years before on mostly fast food and processed foods. Yuck. I don't fit strictly into any one diet but have removed a lot of the junk from my life. I don't find it ironic that I've had health issues lately, either, as that prior way of life is just catching up to me it seems. Just good that I am not continuing it.
I am also eating some berries every day, along with one to two ounces of nuts. And I have this book about making kale smoothies, I am going to try that as kale is just supposed to be incredible for health. Rob
What is the book you are reading about kale smoothies?
Prince Kong
6-2-14, 5:44am
I look at it this way - the way I'm eating now - more fruits and veggies, some organic, some not - has to be healthier than how I lived so many years before on mostly fast food and processed foods. Yuck. I don't fit strictly into any one diet but have removed a lot of the junk from my life. I don't find it ironic that I've had health issues lately, either, as that prior way of life is just catching up to me it seems. Just good that I am not continuing it.
I am also eating some berries every day, along with one to two ounces of nuts. And I have this book about making kale smoothies, I am going to try that as kale is just supposed to be incredible for health. Rob
Lordie, kale smoothies do sound good!
I like the Omnivore's Dilemma approach - eat good food in natural state that your grandparents would recognize, mostly plants and not too much. I have to get back to the focus on portion control as food is really so delicious and enjoyable on this approach. My weaknesses are fruit and good artisan breads.
For me, this seems to be the way to go. I try to have nuts or seeds everyday, this along with fats found naturally in foods seems to work well for me.
I also work daily on portion control.
HappyHiker
6-26-14, 2:28pm
Yes! Nuts and seeds. A favorite snack is raw, organic pumpkin seeds -- very high in magnesium and potassium, good fats... I eat them out of hand, mixed with raisins, or sprinkle them on a salad, throw them into soups and stews.
Anyone else into seeds?
ApatheticNoMore
6-26-14, 2:43pm
More into nuts. Though I don't think I'm really going for the health benefits as I like them dry roasted and salted :). Maybe I'm going for super super convenient plus filling and tasty. I like almonds, cashews, walnuts, pistachios, macademias, sure ocassionally peanuts but they are a fake nut and not to good from a health perspective.
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