View Full Version : Why do women get so bitchy when in a group?
awakenedsoul
5-21-14, 12:28am
Yesterday I went to a knitting group at our local yarn shop. I brought in some homemade cookies for everyone and a cotton/linen tank top that I'm making. You can have coffee or tea there, and sit and chat. I was having a nice time talking with a woman I see there regularly. As I was packing up to leave, I asked "Does anybody want to take home these leftover cookies to their husband or kids?" A few women took me up on it. I was wearing a sweater that I'd knit. One of the women studied it and said, "That fits you perfectly." Then her face darkened..."You don't have children, do you? You bitch." I'm very in shape and I get this from women all the time. I can't believe how obsessed they are with weight and looks. It seems worse now that I'm older, since those who aren't aging well get so vicious. I told her so, too. She was shocked. She told me that I shouldn't take it so seriously.
Have you noticed this with women? I wonder if it's related to all those reality shows and housewife shows...(I don't watch them. I liked the Mary Tyler Moore era.)
I get this envy all the time (about not having kids). I just look them straight in the eye and tell them "yes, no kids, never had them, never wanted them, never doubted it." With a huge smile to perhaps irritate them even more. Amazing how this stops the constant discussion of why kids are so great.
Right now I am getting in shape and I am noticing that some of my groups with a high proportion of really heavy women is having some difficulty with this also. I dont talk about it unless asked and then I tell them Weight Watchers and a lot of exercise. That seems to stop them from talking about it also.
Groups of any sex are much crueler because (my opinion) mob mentality. They think they can get away with it or have support from the group.
I have always said if women could stop being mean to each other and empower each other, we COULD truly rule the world. Jealousy and ego every time.
What an ugly person that was!
I'm not a knitter, but I think of yarn shops as a peaceful haven full of folks drinking chamomile tea.... what a big toxic meatball that lady was in the peace soup!
I just really couldn't imagine a) saying that myself out loud in a group of people or b) having that said to me..... maybe she thinks she has a sense of humor? Didn't sound very funny to me though.
Good for you, Awakenedsoul, for calling her out on it directly and swiftly.
I moved to an area of the country where if people aren't into you they don't give you the time of day... I have found that so incredibly liberating as opposed to saccharin-y sweet niceness to your face, then raking you over the coals when you leave the room. I do hold onto my manners, but when I get weirdness from others in my mind I'm like, "Have a great day, good luck getting through life with that shitty attitude and terrible behavior." Hasta La Vista Baby!
I'm so sorry that the thinner in our bunch are getting crap for that. My god what a sick society we live in!
And then this whole mommy wars and punching on those that didn't have children... WTH.
I don't have anything to give, other than to blather on about how incredibly lame some people can be.
If any guys are reading this thread... what kind of crap do other guys give you for your child choices or fitness/health choices?
I'm curious.
I wonder if it's related to all those reality shows and housewife shows...(I don't watch them. I liked the Mary Tyler Moore era.)
IMO Reality TV is just a less expensive replacement for soap operas in that they are cheaper to produce and freaks seeking fame aren't unionized.
awakenedsoul
5-21-14, 10:51am
Thanks for all the replies. sweetana, That's smart. I never wanted to have kids, either. I enjoyed teaching them for thirty years, but with my career and all the travel, I knew I wouldn't have them. I agree with you about the mob mentality. This is the 7th time something like this has happened at that knitting shop. Lots of obese, sedentary women. I've told them, "It's really rude to talk about someone's weight, whether they are heavy or thin." I ride my bike there, with my knitting in this big backpack. That really freaks them out. It's funny...
mtnlaurel, She thought she was being funny. (In her words, "like Roseanna Roseanna Danna...") I told her, "It's not funny." When I taught ballet, some of the mothers would do the same thing, watching me through the window. I just don't think about people's weight. For some reason they assume I'm "naturally thin" because I never had kids. I told them, "It's work. It's not natural."
GreenMama, This woman looks like she was very pretty when she was young. She's kind of let herself go. I think you're right. I always shower, put on some make-up, wear something flattering, and put on jewelry before I leave the house. I just feel better. A lot of these women don't, and they're the ones that are mouthy...
awakenedsoul
5-21-14, 10:54am
IMO Reality TV is just a less expensive replacement for soap operas in that they are cheaper to produce and freaks seeking fame aren't unionized.
I know. People watch this stuff and imitate it. I worked with such disciplined, talented, trained people when I was in show business. Now they are finding people with looks, but nothing else. No script, acting training, or direction. It's just conflict, drama, and competition...
You're right. They'll do anything to be on t.v. and so it's super cheap to produce. I really miss the quality shows, though...
My theory is that our hormones sync up.
It's my observation that judgmental cranks and sanctimonious twits come in all sizes and operate equally within and independent of social groups.
IshbelRobertson
5-21-14, 12:01pm
Try the famous British comeback. Look down your nose at the person and say, quietly and deliberately, in a questioning, even tone
'Did you REALLY mean to be so rude?'
Works like a charm!
That certainly was a rude thing to say to you. I get that some too as I am petite and don't look my age - yet. Her comment doesn't even make sense though as there are plenty of women who have had kids (myself included) who are in shape. Her problem, not yours:)
awakenedsoul
5-21-14, 12:26pm
Tradd, Yeah, that's for sure. Kind of like PMS...JaneV2.0, That's true. I think that's why I avoid groups of women. I prefer one on one. Ishbel, I'll try to remember that one. I was just so shocked. This woman is usually one of the nicer ones in the group. I didn't expect it from her.
awakenedsoul
5-21-14, 12:28pm
That certainly was a rude thing to say to you. I get that some too as I am petite and don't look my age - yet. Her comment doesn't even make sense though as there are plenty of women who have had kids (myself included) who are in shape. Her problem, not yours:)
I know. I have lots of friends who have kids and are fit. One of them is an older Rockette. She told me, "It's just discipline. I have three kids. It's discipline." I think she's right.
She thought she was being funny
No, she did not. She may have said so defensively because she was caught out, but she absolutely did not mean to be humorous. Couching what you say in the name of humor does not mean you were trying to be funny.
There is a woman in one of my groups who does the same thing. She will often say something outrageous to someone and when they are hurt or offended, will then declare that she was only teasing. She does it to me and a couple of weeks ago I started replying in explanation to what she said, just to see what she would do. and when that did not work I defaulted to just not saying anything. Her response was to speak to the room, saying 'oh, Jilly doesn't like what I said, she just doesn't get it'. My reply was that I really could not tell when she was teasing or being serious. Now, she just glares at me.
I have an idea of why she does this, but it makes no difference. All I can do is to gently call her out when she does this stuff.
Ishbel, that is a great response, but I do not think I have the guts to say that. Except for this particular woman, I am more of a slink away and lick my wounds sort of person. I do not admire that in myself, although I am trying and working to be more calmly assertive when this happens. Sort of like training dogs.
I've been fortunate to never have experienced that - and don't think that is a common thing . Most of the women I know (as well as men) and hang out it as a group or individually have been very nice and supportive. I mostly do sports or recreational activities when with a group of women so the focus is more on the activity then chatting - although we do go out together afterwards and talk then. We do have some joking and banter but no rudeness. I would find such comments and behavior extremely rude even if they were joking and would can them out on it. I find it especially rude and hurtful to comment on a person's childless status. You never know if it's voluntary or not. The person might have spent years longing for and trying to have children without luck. Same with weight - fit or not, fat or not, it's not something anyone should make negative comments about.
awakenedsoul
5-21-14, 2:22pm
Jilly, She said that she was trying to be funny, but you're right, she was shocked that I confronted her. I told her, "I am NOT a bitch." She looked kind of bewildered. "You should just laugh when someone does that," she answered. They have a lot of this kind of "banter" at the knitting shop. The owner calls it "messing with people." They put each other down and insult each other. I find it obnoxious. I've told the owner so. I'm a good customer, so she is very respectful now. That woman in your group sounds like a bully.
Spartana, I think athletes are more healthy and have much better body images. Most of these women don't like how they look, and they've felt that way for decades. That's a good point about not having kids. I also feel that way about being thin. My legs have kind of shrunk in the last year. I do all kinds of yoga, pilates, and walking, but they still need to get stronger. I hate it when women point out the size of my legs in front of a group. I'm losing muscle mass with age, even though I bike, do leg exercises, etc.
Another lady in the group said to her, "It's jealousy. If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything." I really appreciated that.
Teacher Terry
5-21-14, 2:36pm
I think I would find a new knitting group. I have a group of women that I do things with & no one is ever mean like that.
Wow, I would have taken that phrase completely differently! I would have been proud that she was so jealous that I had a body she wanted and simply said, "Thank You! How many cookies would you like to take home?"
I really, really doubt she meant you were actually a Bitch, it was a way for her to say how jealous she was that you have put in the work necessary to look great and feel great about yourself.
Whether we like it or not, not everyone has our own sense of humor. They vary greatly and getting to know the person better will allow one to know if it really is just teasing or nastiness.
How many years have those 1/2 hour sitcoms that use sarcastic humor been around? 20 years+? It is now pervasive in our society and we do need to realize the people around us will use those same humor concepts to get a laugh. Best way to shut someone down is to dish it right back twice as hard.
In my stitch group I'm always prepared with some innocuous subjects to move conversations to more positive angles if I see a problem. Such as, "Have you seen the latest podcast from The Fat Squirrel?" "Has anyone been to 'such n such' place lately?" Don't let the bitching, whining, politics, dead pet story go on too long.
It might be time to create your own stitch group if this group does not mesh with what you are looking for. Some groups of women are really nasty, juvenile people who wallow in their failures. Walk away if you feel you are not getting from this stitch group what you are seeking.
Or maybe the owner could provide the option for you to start your own group at a different time in her shop?
Sadly, "bitch" has become the new way of saying "buddy" or "friend" or "girlfriend". I hear it all the time, "I'm just hangin' with my bitches." Just like "awesome" there are certain words that those of us over age 45 just shouldn't use. Others over 45 may not understand the current 'definition' of a word.
I would have ripped that woman a good one. I'm very fluent in sarcasm and profanity.
awakenedsoul
5-21-14, 7:15pm
I'm getting such a kick out of these responses. Dhiana, I think you're right about t.v. and the sarcasm. I haven't had t.v. in a while, so it makes me bristle. I was just raised so differently. I got my mouth washed out with soap for calling my brother "stupid." Never did that again. You're right about the whining and negativity. Some of the women go for just that purpose. I left another knitting group because the leader used it to vent nonstop. She would complain about her kids, schedule, money problems, etc. the entire time. It was so draining. I talked to her about it and she said, "Listen, this is my therapy."
Float On, I think this woman is around 50 or older. Most of the women who go to this knitting group are at least 40...that's considered young. It's still not okay with me.
Tradd, You crack me up. She's usually really nice. She seemed shocked that I was offended. She looks like a partyer...kind of an aging hippie type.
Now that I think of it, one of the younger girls who works there is super sarcastic, too. She acts like she thinks it's cute or funny. I wrote a post on Ravelry about it, and she's cleaned up her mouth around me. The last time I bought some llama/silk yarn there she practically yelled, "Oh, you're making another sweater for your SELF? How nice...another sweater for your SELF!!! It was unbelievable. I can buy the yarn on line cheaper and not have to deal with her mouth. It's really bad for sales. I spent $1,000. at that shop last year. (I was new, so I bought sets of needles, took classes on making socks and sweaters, etc...) Not smart of her...
Sounds to me like that yarn shop could use a bouncer :)
Tradd- you win the "you made me belly laugh" award from me today!
Sounds to me like that yarn shop could use a bouncer :)
Tradd- you win the "you made me belly laugh" award from me today!
Glad to amuse you! I have no patience for stupid people. A.favorite saying applies here: "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes." If you're an idiot, you deserve to get a taste of your own medicine.
Sadly, "bitch" has become the new way of saying "buddy" or "friend" or "girlfriend". I hear it all the time, "I'm just hangin' with my bitches." Just like "awesome" there are certain words that those of us over age 45 just shouldn't use. Others over 45 may not understand the current 'definition' of a word.That's true. I do see that a lot but usually between friends and people who have similar senses of humor. One girl I play volleyball with always says "yo bitches" with a smile on her face whenever she shows up to play (this is with a group of 20, 30 and 40 year old SAHM's who call themselves "The Housewives From Hell"). I never really gave it any thought as it just her way (we all make pretty bawdy jokes while we play and do some trash talking - again very humorously amongst people we know well). But if someone I didn't know well said it directly to my face meaning it as an insult that's a different story (where's the icon from steam coming out of ears :-)!).
http://www.h2g2.com/h2g2/skins/Alabaster/images/Smilies/f_steam.gif
awakenedsoul
5-21-14, 11:13pm
Yeah, this woman is a SAHM who lives in Calalbasis. She has a wealthy husband, a housekeeper, and three kids. She doesn't have to worry about money and seems pretty carefree. Her daughters are ten yr. old twins, so she's probably around women that age. Maybe she's younger than I thought. I've had the same close friends for thirty years. They are so different than these t.v. "housewives". One was a principal ballerina with New York City Ballet. Another was a dancer on Broadway who also directed the Rockettes. The women I danced with in Broadway shows were so much fun. We got along really well. My close friends are all very successful, artistic, sensitive, spiritual people. It's like a different species. My teachers really influenced me, too. They were extremely successful, tactful, kind women. Now that I think of it, they were divorced. They had trouble with marriage. One was asst. to Gene Kelly, Jerome Robbins, and Hermes Pan. She worked on all the old movies at MGM. The other was a principal at Royal Ballet and a master ballet teacher in NYC and LA. They were really classy, elegant, mature women. I always think of them and try to be like them. It was a different era...
http://www.h2g2.com/h2g2/skins/Alabaster/images/Smilies/f_steam.gifHa! I knew someone would have one :-)!
Oh, I just have to chime in on this one! Yesterday, I had the quintessential "I'd laugh if I weren't crying" experience. I went to do a petsitting assignment for a client, and encountered the client's weekly housekeeper, who comes in whether the client is in town or not. I hadn't seen her for nearly a year, as our paths didn't always cross when I was there on previous assignments. In Hebrew, as soon as she saw me, she blurted out, "Wow, why are you so fat right now? Jeez, you're REALLY fat! Do you still have your (insert vulgar slang for "vagina")? I got some of mine taken out, but I didn't get as fat as you!"
She made an extra effort to help me understand her by using numerous hand gestures to indicate my fatness and the location of her (vulgar slang for "vagina"), which was really kind of her.
Obviously, she was referring to having had a partial hysterectomy.
I have never had kids, but now I'm definitely overweight by about 35 pounds, so not having kids is no guarantee that one will be able to maintain one's figure effortlessly!
awakenedsoul
5-22-14, 1:18pm
Oh my God Selah! How rude! That's what I'm talking about...unbelievable. It blows my mind when people make comments like that.
The thing I notice, is the comparing. That seems to be at the bottom of it. Who's prettier, who's in better shape, etc...
A lot of women that age just blurt things out, like you said. (Really inappropriate things.)
Is it at all possible that when she said, "You don't have children, do you? Bitch" it was really like giving you a compliment, the same way people say, "I hate you because you're so skinny"?
Living in NJ I know a lot of people who talk like that, but it's just their way of communicating. I can think of one woman in particular with whom I worked. She was in her 50s, and just really blase attitude, and would slip in comments underhandedly. Sometimes they were directed at me, and I could have felt insulted in some of those, but I laughed instead because it was just her way. I don't care what people say to me. But at the same time I totally get what you're saying about the loss of grace and dignity in the way women act today. I get nostalgic for that, too.
But I have to say, Selah, your experience really pushes the boundaries!! Reminds me of when my daughter (who was 5 at the time, not an adult who should know better) said to a really good friend of ours who was overweight, "You're fat!" So my friend looked down at her and said, "What did you say, dear?" And I'm thinking, "oh, please say 'never mind'... please don't repeat it!!" And she said, even louder, "YOU'RE FAT!"
My friend took it well, but I was mortified. And my DD did learn how to edit her speech.
awakenedsoul
5-22-14, 2:53pm
catherine,
I know a few of women from NJ and they talk that way, too. I avoid them, because I don't want to listen to their mouths. What's that saying, "You can take the girl out of New Jersey, but you can't take the New Jersey out of the girl." I did work with a girl from Weehawken, NJ in "42nd Street", and I adored her. She was really sweet.
A lot of it is upbringing. My mom used to tell me, "Don't say hate." I'm glad she corrected me. To me, if a woman hates thin women, she can keep it to herself. My feeling is, it's not my fault a woman is overweight. I wouldn't say that, but if someone is that combative and resentful, it gets old after a while.
Gardenarian
5-22-14, 3:03pm
I dream of a world where the most important thing about a woman is not her weight :)
Sometime or other I heard someone say "Well no $h!t, Sherlock" when someone said something obvious. I've been waiting for someone to comment on my (excess) weight so I can say that to them, but no one has. Maybe I look dangerous.
Another response I've been saving up is "How kind of you to say so". I haven't been able to use that one either.
catherine,
I know a few of women from NJ and they talk that way, too. I avoid them, because I don't want to listen to their mouths. What's that saying, "You can take the girl out of New Jersey, but you can't take the New Jersey out of the girl." I did work with a girl from Weehawken, NJ in "42nd Street", and I adored her. She was really sweet.
A lot of it is upbringing. My mom used to tell me, "Don't say hate." I'm glad she corrected me. To me, if a woman hates thin women, she can keep it to herself. My feeling is, it's not my fault a woman is overweight. I wouldn't say that, but if someone is that combative and resentful, it gets old after a while.
Yeah, I grew up in CT and raised by a bunch of blue-blooded, unemotional (but warm and loving), Victorian women. I actually have had fun being amongst the Jersey 'tude. I like to pretend that the Jersey in-your-face attitude is my alter ego and I truly wish I could draw on it more often.
There's more than one girl in NJ like your sweet Weehawken friend! The state has tons of them.
ApatheticNoMore
5-22-14, 3:51pm
I dream of a world where the most important thing about a woman is not her weight
+1 I mean really you're talking about women who regret having kids because they aren't thin anymore? I mean how screwed up is that? Have kids, don't have kids (the population of earth is enough without it, it should be an extremely conscious choice made with full mental and emotional understanding of the responsibility of raising them), but on what screwed up value system is being thin more important than raising and appreciating your kids IF you have them?
It's not one's fault if someone else is overweight, but also unless one knows someone very well you can't possibly know why and all the factors that may contribute to it, so frankly it's not anyone elses business or judgement to make. Although if one genuinely cares about someone and their weight is such that one worries about their *health* one might express concern.
I can't say I understand a world in which calling someone a B is a joke (let me to take that aspergers test again :)) but a lot depends on both context (body language etc.) and culture I suppose. So it's kind of a "you have to be there" thing I guess.
awakenedsoul
5-22-14, 4:36pm
I've gone to other knitting groups, and I do notice that for some reason the women tend to put their families first, and themselves last. Maybe it's just this area. They tend to view single women as selfish, because single women have more time, (or make more time,) for exercise, grooming, self improvement, etc. Some of them even think it's selfish to knit your own clothes. It's like it's been drummed into them to serve: children, husbands, and charities. I knit gifts for my family, too. I also give food and money to charity, but I don't really talk about it, I do it quietly. This area is mostly conservative families. I'd probably fit in better in an artistic community, but housing here is affordable.
I also think that a lot of t.v. is written by gay men. I noticed that when I still had t.v. They really capitalize on cattiness. I worked as a dancer for most of my life. I can recognize the language and the attitude. So many of the guys in the shows I was in were gay...I don't think women are writing these scripts...
I've gone to other knitting groups, and I do notice that for some reason the women tend to put their families first, and themselves last. Maybe it's just this area.
I think that's the nature of the beast no matter where you are. Is there something wrong with that? I think the act of being a parent demands that kind of selflessness, and if some people resent that they've accepted that role, that's their problem. I've seen some parents who put themselves first and their children wind up being like props in their lives. "OK, got the career, check! Got the beemer, check! Got the 6 bedroom house, check! Got the kid and the nanny to go with it, check!"
awakenedsoul
5-22-14, 5:56pm
Oh no. I don't think there's anything nothing wrong with that. It's just that if a woman thinks that everyone else is selfish, maybe her life is out of balance. If I were married and had kids, my life would be totally different. It does require giving up a lot. I love all that home stuff, but I didn't really like my situation when I was living with a man. (We weren't right for each other.) I'm really glad I didn't have kids with him. So, I got out. Had I chosen that life, I would have wanted to stay home. (I think.) But, I would have needed to work for money.
I know what you mean about the reverse. I guess some people make more conscious choices than others. I saw how unhappy, resentful, and depressed my mom was with four kids. I knew I needed to follow a career path. I helped her a lot with my two brothers, (like a full time nanny,) and that was enough parenting for me. I enjoyed it at the time, though.
Oh no. I don't think there's anything nothing wrong with that. It's just that if a woman thinks that everyone else is selfish, maybe her life is out of balance. If I were married and had kids, my life would be totally different. It does require giving up a lot. I love all that home stuff, but I didn't really like my situation when I was living with a man. (We weren't right for each other.) I'm really glad I didn't have kids with him. So, I got out. Had I chosen that life, I would have wanted to stay home. (I think.) But, I would have needed to work for money.
I know what you mean about the reverse. I guess some people make more conscious choices than others. I saw how unhappy, resentful, and depressed my mom was with four kids. I knew I needed to follow a career path. I helped her a lot with my two brothers, (like a full time nanny,) and that was enough parenting for me. I enjoyed it at the time, though.
I guess envy isn't a very flattering quality no matter which way you cut it.
ToomuchStuff
5-22-14, 9:53pm
http://www.h2g2.com/h2g2/skins/Alabaster/images/Smilies/f_steam.gif
I came in to see if any guys had responded, and was thinking of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5_IcqrM96M:laff:
I came in to see if any guys had responded....
You can be sure I thought long and hard before deciding to keep silent on the subject. I was afraid if I let my thoughts take form as written words something like "because they're women" would come out.
Oops! http://www.h2g2.com/h2g2/skins/Alabaster/images/Smilies/f_facepalm.gif
You'd think that after 37 years of marriage, and 35 years as the father of a daughter, I'd know better. >8)
You can be sure I thought long and hard before deciding to keep silent on the subject. I was afraid if I let my thoughts take form as written words something like "because they're women" would come out.
Oops! http://www.h2g2.com/h2g2/skins/Alabaster/images/Smilies/f_facepalm.gif
You'd think that after 37 years of marriage, and 35 years as the father of a daughter, I'd know better. >8) Oh and I thought I was holding my tongue when I was goingt o write that the men in their lives drove them to it :devil:! Oops :doh:
I dream of a world where the most important thing about a woman is not her weight :)Amen!! Add to that how we dress, what we drive, what we eat (or don't), our age, or SO's (I am NOT my SO), their kids (They are not their kids), and a million other things we are judged by.
Oh and I thought I was holding my tongue when I was goingt o write that the men in their lives drove them to it :devil:! Oops :doh:
A woman holding her tongue....now that's AWESOME!!!
http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/th_backingout.gif
A woman holding her tongue....now that's AWESOME!!!
http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/th_backingout.gifWell someone needs to teach you guys how to behave - why else would we ever need to speak in the first place - oh besides to talk about shoes :-)!
Oh, I just have to chime in on this one! Yesterday, I had the quintessential "I'd laugh if I weren't crying" experience. I went to do a petsitting assignment for a client, and encountered the client's weekly housekeeper, who comes in whether the client is in town or not. I hadn't seen her for nearly a year, as our paths didn't always cross when I was there on previous assignments. In Hebrew, as soon as she saw me, she blurted out, "Wow, why are you so fat right now? Jeez, you're REALLY fat! Do you still have your (insert vulgar slang for "vagina")? I got some of mine taken out, but I didn't get as fat as you!"
She made an extra effort to help me understand her by using numerous hand gestures to indicate my fatness and the location of her (vulgar slang for "vagina"), which was really kind of her.
Obviously, she was referring to having had a partial hysterectomy.
I have never had kids, but now I'm definitely overweight by about 35 pounds, so not having kids is no guarantee that one will be able to maintain one's figure effortlessly!Oh geeze Selah - that is just unbelievably rude. I'm hoping it's just a language cultural barrier thing but it doesn't sound like it.
.
Spartana, I think athletes are more healthy and have much better body images. Most of these women don't like how they look, and they've felt that way for decades. .I wish that were true but unfortunately even fit athletic women I know often have poor body images. The ones that are fit for sports seem to be Ok what ever their weight is or how they look, but the ones who are fit because they want to look a certain way just are never satisfied and seem to always focus on the negative aspects of their bodies rather than the positive. They seem almost depressed if they can't reach some level of perceived perfect. Very sad all that self-loathing when most are wonderful and lovely people. But I have never heard them trash on anyone else, just themselves. That seems to me more common than jealousy of another woman's looks or body and life. Just seem to be dissatisfied with their looks and always talks down about themselfs. Drives me batty! But it seems that the media and society has convinced many women that even achieving it all isn't good enough. UGH!
But on the other hand, I have many friends who aren't athletic or fit or slender that have a very positive body images. Their mantra seems to be "if you don't like the way I look, then that's your problem not mine". I like that mantra.
awakenedsoul
5-22-14, 11:47pm
I don't think everyone is meant to be fit or slender. I look at Oprah, and I think she looks great. It's too bad so many women don't like the way they look. I had an aunt who really influenced me, too. She was very overweight, but very happy and upbeat. She loved cooking, eating, dogs, going to the theater and out to lunch. She smoked True Blue's and loved drinking 7 and 7. I remember as a child that she seemed so much happier than all the other women. She was single, and had a gorgeous home in San Francisco. She had worked as the secretary of American Can to the president of the company, and she was very confident. She was proud of being the fastest typist in her company, and she was super smart...great with numbers. She was very generous to us. (her nephews and nieces.) She went on trips all over the world, played solitaire, watched her favorite shows on the telly, and enjoyed life. She was also very kind to the elderly. She would make our widowed relatives stuffed cornish game hens with all the trimmings for Thanksgiving and deliver their meals. I watched her and thought, "She's got it made." I realized I'd probably be happier with her lifestyle than going the traditional route. She took me to see Broadway shows and was really happy when that became my career.
Your aunt sounds awesome, awakenedsoul! Oops.. there's that word again..
Your aunt sounds amazing, awkenedsoull! Oops...
Your aunt sounds like a wonderful woman, awakenedsoul!
awakenedsoul
5-23-14, 11:46am
She was really funny. This was way before the health craze. She didn't exercise at all. (She paid the girl down the street to walk her dog.) The first thing she did in the a.m. was to have a glass of Coca Cola. (As a child I thought that was the ultimate.) I remember thinking, "Wow, she can watch whatever she wants on t.v., she can eat whatever she wants for dinner, she can cook whatever she wants..." It really appealed to me. She had a cleaning lady, too. At home, my mom was doing laundry every single day, cleaning her house like a madwoman, and busting her butt. My aunt was really relaxed and cheerful. My aunt would come over, take her out to lunch, bring spaghetti from Petrini's for dinner, and say, "Let's have a belt." (She was my dad's sister, not my mom's...)
I live near an area that is filled with gyms and workout places of all sorts, CrossFit etc. They are usually quite full of mostly young people lifting weights, punching bags, running, exercising. I sometimes wonder if it hasn't become an obsession for perfection or maybe an addiction. I guess there are worse things to be obsessed about though:)
awakenedsoul
5-23-14, 6:23pm
That rings true to me, pinkytoe. I think people have become that way with food, too. I was taking a class with a lot of younger people, and even just to have a cup of coffee, there were all these issues. "Does it have sugar? I don't eat sugar or any sweeteners..." I kind of miss the days when people just enjoyed eating without restrictions.
Good for you for telling her how you feel, that comment was insensitive, what if you were childless not by choice? Not sure why all the judgement on bigger women though, I find that a little hurtful! I know plenty of women who are catty in all shapes and sizes.
awakenedsoul
7-26-14, 2:13pm
That's true. Sorry if I was the one that offended...
I guess envy isn't a very flattering quality no matter which way you cut it.
There are different flavors of envy - you can be envious of someone's situation but happy and excited for them at the same time. Maybe jealousy would be a better word?
There are different flavors of envy - you can be envious of someone's situation but happy and excited for them at the same time. Maybe jealousy would be a better word?
No, jealousy and envy are two different things. Jealousy stems from fear and envy stems from resentment. Perhaps you could be envious and happy for people at the same time, but I think the envy would undermine the good feelings.
From a Christian perspective, Envy is one of the seven deadly sins.
awakenedsoul
7-26-14, 8:19pm
I'm not real clear on the difference. Maybe sometimes people have both. I see what you're saying, Catherine.
No, jealousy and envy are two different things. Jealousy stems from fear and envy stems from resentment. Perhaps you could be envious and happy for people at the same time, but I think the envy would undermine the good feelings.
From a Christian perspective, Envy is one of the seven deadly sins.
Then what would you call it when you wish you could have what this other person has, but you're thrilled and happy for them?
Then what would you call it when you wish you could have what this other person has, but you're thrilled and happy for them?
Envy with a veneer of happiness tinged with insincerity. Ever see the smile on the face of the runner-up for Miss America?
If you were truly joyful for that person, their happiness would be your happiness and your own perceived lack would be non-existent. You wouldn't be thinking "She has but I don't."
awakenedsoul
7-27-14, 12:55pm
I've felt the way you described, creaker. I've been happy for someone when "I lost and they won." Usually, they deserved to be first, and I deserved to be runner up. I knew that and admired them. (I'm thinking of gymnastics meets when I was young.) My goal was to get better, and being around others who were more talented steered me towards my true path and inner talent, dance.
In show business, quite often you don't get the part, for a variety of reasons. If you love the art, the practicing, the training, and the people, you are a lot happier. In my field, those who feel envious of those who are successful usually don't make it. It teaches you to handle rejection gracefully. I'm auditioning now for people I worked with 30 years ago. It sure helps when we have fond memories...
I've also been happy for my friends when they got married. It hasn't worked out for me yet, but that's okay. My lifestyle isn't really suited for marriage. I think it depends on the person and their overall satisfaction with life. Things like debt, family issues, and health can really color how we feel.
We all see through our own filters. When I started this thread, it was really to find out what you thought, not what's wrong with what someone else thinks. Sometimes if people start criticizing another person's point of view, it kills the thread.
Mean and crass people come in all sizes and fitness levels. Be careful not to lump everyone into the same group. Judgement and stereotyping is never a good thing. Base one's opinion on an individual's behavior, in my opinion...
awakenedsoul
7-29-14, 11:44am
I just reread the original post. I don't see anything lumping people together in a group. I actually had a couple of people at the gym make a huge deal about my weight on Sun. One was an older man in the pool. I always see him there, so I said hi and asked how he was doing. "Geez, we've got to get some weight on you! You're so thin!" he exclaimed. After that, a woman in the jacuzzi who is in her fifties started making a fuss about how thin I was. I just wish people would keep those comments to themselves. I think it's rude to talk about people's weight and appearance and point it out in public. I have a very lean body because of all the ballet and yoga. It just makes me feel self conscious when people make such a scene.
I didn't mean to judge or attack any group of people. I'm sorry if it sounded that way.
I think the problem was with the title. It comes across somewhat inflammatory and stereotyping because it seems to lump ALL women in ALL groups together as being bitchy rather than just your personal experience. Maybe using the word "some" women and "some" groups (or "my" groups) would have been less inflammatory. However, since I've read enough of your posts to know you are a kind-hearted person, I got what you meant. In my personal experience I have never been in a group of women (or men or mixed group) where everyone was bitchy or snotty or rude or pissy. Some people in the group have been that way (men and women both) but never all at once - and even rare for one or two people in a group to be nasty or mean spirited.
awakenedsoul
7-29-14, 5:37pm
Spartana, Oh thanks. I didn't realize that. I didn't mean all women. I just feel like group dynamics do something weird. People who are nice and friendly one on one can sometimes turn in a group. Some sort of weird chemistry thing. Maybe it is just my personal experience.
Spartana, Oh thanks. I didn't realize that. I didn't mean all women. I just feel like group dynamics do something weird. People who are nice and friendly one on one can sometimes turn in a group. Some sort of weird chemistry thing. Maybe it is just my personal experience. I do think that people can change when they interact with a bunch of people. Maybe one person dislikes another (and they would never be friends outside the group activity) or maybe they have different ideas of how things should be or whatever. Person A and Person B may get along great, but as soon as person C comes along things may change.
awakenedsoul
7-29-14, 7:46pm
Yes. You described it exactly. I'm taking the advice of some of the people on this thread. I don't go to that knitting group anymore.
I saw the older man again today at the pool. I was swimming as he walked in and put down his bag. He glanced at me and yelled at the top of his lungs, YOU'RE TOO THIN!!!"
Yes. You described it exactly. I'm taking the advice of some of the people on this thread. I don't go to that knitting group anymore.
I saw the older man again today at the pool. I was swimming as he walked in and put down his bag. He glanced at me and yelled at the top of his lungs, YOU'RE TOO THIN!!!"
wow, I think this has crossed over into harassment. Do you think he would stop if you were able to politely ask him to? I'd give him the benefit of the doubt til then, but if you specifically ask him to stop commenting on your weight and he continues to do so, then it's time to ask management to get involved.
awakenedsoul
7-29-14, 9:31pm
Thanks Lainey. Last time I saw him I lowered my voice and said, "You shouldn't comment on people's weight, you don't know why they're thin." I thought that would tactfully give him the message. Someone might be terminally ill, have arthritis, whatever...
This time, i just ignored him. He looks to be elderly, and I think is kind of cranky and unpredictable. I switched lanes so that he could walk in the side lane. (where I was swimming.) He said "thank you" in a quiet voice. After the last two incidents, I just avoid him. I have kind of a body builder type body, but in miniature. (no bulk.) For some reason, it freaks some people out...my brothers are built the same way. (less than 2% body fat.) They're also very athletic and very disciplined.
awakenedsoul
7-30-14, 11:59pm
I just reread all the posts. I didn't realize how negative I'd gotten. I think when someone is verbally abusive I start to list all of their flaws on a mental judgement list. It's some kind of weird defense. It just makes things worse. Something to work on...
However, I think women can be slow to protect their boundaries, both physical and emotional. We are so conditioned to "be nice" that we sometimes hesitate too long on calling someone out on their behavior.
Maybe it's just normal to start to think ill of people and judge them when they act out, but I've come to realize that if it helps protect you, then a little internal judging is not a bad thing.
awakenedsoul
7-31-14, 11:21pm
I agree. I used to be a real pleaser, and couldn't handle any conflict. There's a whole back story to the OP, too. The owner of the knitting shop and one of the teachers used to insult each other about their weight, in front of everybody. I was horrified. They are both obese, and I NEVER would have mentioned their weight. They are both also pretty, intelligent, successful, and talented. The owner started asking me, "awakenedsoul, do thin people always go out of the house with no make-up on?" Then she'd add, "I always wear make-up when I leave the house. " That sort of thing. (I was wearing light day make-up.) I quit going to the class because the atmosphere was so toxic. The teacher would fly into rages and yell at me that it wasn't fair that I only needed to buy four skeins of yarn to knit a sweater. She was furious that it was "easier" for me, since I'm so small. (It takes less time and far less yarn.) High end yarn is very expensive. The owner called me and asked "Did something happen?" after I quit going. I had written it all down and read it to her. I told her that I don't think of people in terms of all thin people and all fat people. Sorry to use that word, but I wanted her to see how it felt. So, in reading this thread, I realized that I was doing here what she did there, without realizing it.
Awakened soul..........I haven't read all the responses, but was it possible that she was just joking with you? I can't imagine that she was serious.
awakenedsoul
8-1-14, 11:41am
CathyA,
Yes. It's just that so many women at that knit shop have said things like that, I got fed up and stopped going.
awakenedsoul
8-7-14, 4:01pm
Thanks for all the replies. I appreciate the insights that I received.
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