View Full Version : Yesallwomen
I'm not sure where this belongs (Family/Relationships? Public Policy? Media?). I have been browsing the #Yesallwomen hashtag and seeing some posts on FB but no conversation here so thought I'd start one. I know a few members have shared personal stories here, but the thing about the Twitter thread is just how pervasive misogeny is. Have you visited the thread or heard about it? Your reaction?
ApatheticNoMore
6-1-14, 11:54pm
Yes but I don't agree with it. Or I don't think it's generally worse to be a woman in general (the ALL women thing) than a lonely isolated guy in as much pain as Roger. Oh I neither knew him personally nor excuse him (however known guys like him although less insane... yes - and it's a bottomless well of pain).
So the misogyny that exists on PUA sites and the like (and it may not ALL be misogyny, I'm not that familiar with that afterall! But I will say I am aware of the underground streams that feed it - whole bunch of ugly there!!) is incredibly damaging for women if they read how they are viewed (heh read it and never date again :)), and it's obviously also bad for women if men are carrying a whole bunch of magnified and group supported hatred and dehumanized views of women because of it (I guess that was the PUAhate site). Any online group where hatred of women is supported does have hate group characteristics. It's support for hating, like a white supremacist site where you get supported for hating [bunch of racial obscenities].
But if one seeks those misogynistic sites out because of complete perceived rejection by the attractive sex and loneliness, it's more personal than most hate. It's a well of bottomless pain. So sympathy for the devil? Yes, although it's really more sympathy for those I have seen drawn into that internet world that have NOT committed murder. Making it only about misogyny understates that pain a little too easily. And no matter how lonely and depressed and frustrated most guys don't become mass murders (and women never do pretty much :) ) you need something else wrong in your wiring there. By the way it's odd that I haven't yet heard him given the obvious diagnosis of social phobia, he obviously was, although he had a whole bunch more wrong with him than that to be so insane obviously. So hate sites promote violence, perhaps, but maybe for some they serve as a substitute for violence (via virtual violence online and airing frustration). Hate itself obviously doesn't SOLVE anyone's problems, more likely it blocks useful solutions and wastes time. But often people are nowhere near the vicinity of a useful solutions.
So thats if the tag was mostly about the SB shootings which started it. Of course if it's just about general problems women face: sexual assault, sexual harassment in the workplace, domestic violence, more likely to be sexual abused as children (although plenty of boys are too) then yea those usually do impact women in larger numbers than men.
Miss Cellane
6-2-14, 6:42am
If I could tackle this issue from another angle . . . .
I have five brothers. They were all brought up to understand that women are people, too. We had a very strong-willed mother, who was clearly equal with our father in their marriage. And most of the boys ended up marrying strong women, as well. And they grew up with me, their sister who would not let them talk down about women, who kept up with them playing football, who when they all started taking karate lessons insisted on taking them too (mostly because I didn't want them practicing on me), who was loud and vocal that women were every bit as good if not better than men. My family thinks I'm a rabid feminist.
Before he was married, when he was in his 30s, my brother Ned went to Turkey for 4 months to take an intensive language course at a university in Istanbul. Istanbul is very westernized, but the attitudes about women there, although better than in places in the Middle East, still allow for men to touch women passing them on the street in ways that would be inappropriate in the US, allow for men to address women they don't know with sexual suggestions, follow women down the street making lewd remarks, etc.
The western women in the course soon refused to go anywhere in the city by themselves. They paired up with each other or asked one of the men to go with them. Ned thought this was silly. He was treated with respect wherever he went, and he went into the city a lot, to practice his Turkish. He thought all the women were either exagerating or making these things up.
But then one day, a fellow female student asked him to go with her downtown so she could do some shopping. And she was pinched on the bottom by a Turk. And several Turkish men made suggestive comments to her. Ned was stunned that they would do this, even when the young lady was clearly accompanied by a man, who, for the record, played college football and was in the US military and has a somewhat intimidating presence. When they got to the shops, the shop keepers kept wanting to talk with him, even when he told them the woman was the one doing the purchasing.
When Ned got back to the US, he asked me if stuff like this had ever happened to me. I told him about men in the subway taking advantage of crowded cars to rub up against me, of the places I simply didn't go by myself after dark, of all the precautions that a single woman living in a large city takes, to the point where they just become what you do everyday. He was again stunned.
What I'm trying to say is that the "good guys" don't get it. They don't understand what women go through on a daily basis to keep themselves safe. My brother had heard women he had no reason to doubt telling him what happened to them, and he didn't believe them until he saw/heard it for himself.
There is such a huge gap between the way many women live, constantly vigilant, and the way most men live, not worrying about sexual assault at all, that there are times I wonder if the gap can be bridged.
The good that came out of this is that my brother, who ended up as a colonel in the Army, took a very different attitude towards sexual assault than many of his peers, and cracked down firmly on hazing of the women under his command. And while he was at that language course, he took to volunteering to escort the women who wanted to venture out into the city.
Ned "got it." But there are a great many men out there who would never harm a woman themselves, who allow other men to do so, because they simply do not understand what those men do to women. And because they themselves wouldn't harm a woman, they cannot believe that other men *would*.
It's not just misogyny that causes this. It's the blindness that most men have towards how women are treated and viewed by other men. That blindness allows those men who are misogenistic to get away with things.
A good eye-opener on how these things happen is Captain Awkward on rape culture: http://captainawkward.com/tag/rape-culture/ Scroll down to read the entries on Creeps in your social group and My Friend the Rapist.
I am so not up to speed on any of this.... if you aren't either, here's the first article that came up when I googled #Yesallwomen
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2014/06/09/140609taco_talk_mead
I haven't read article yet, but will get to it.
ApatheticNoMore
6-2-14, 9:21am
What I'm trying to say is that the "good guys" don't get it. They don't understand what women go through on a daily basis to keep themselves safe. My brother had heard women he had no reason to doubt telling him what happened to them, and he didn't believe them until he saw/heard it for himself.
There is such a huge gap between the way many women live, constantly vigilant, and the way most men live, not worrying about sexual assault at all, that there are times I wonder if the gap can be bridged.
but I don't think all women live this way. I don't spend much time thinking about it though I don't do dumb things with regard to safety (I don't' wander around dangerous streets at night, I do wander around safe streets at night to my mom's constant annoyance). So it's kind of not in my name, not all women. But that there are safer and more dangerous places to find yourself - yea. I do live where I feel safe etc.. Whereas I think if they had said SOME women they would have been on unchallengable ground (so the whole claiming to speak for all women - no you don't - was annoying. Ugh. How about "all women" no more feel or experience or interpret life one way than "all african american's", "all asians" "all gays" etc.?). I mostly start thinking about the issue of safety when ridiculous nonsense gets proposed like talking about the guy that lived in his car to save money. Ok nothing against him, but as a woman I'd feel at risk living in my car. I think IT'S DIFFERENT FOR A WOMAN. Better have things for self-defense if you live in your car, well yea kinda (or if your camping alone) ... but probably better not to live in your car to save money! :) And there are things that might put me at risk that I could see starting with a guy or as a guy but not alone.
The good that came out of this is that my brother, who ended up as a colonel in the Army, took a very different attitude towards sexual assault than many of his peers, and cracked down firmly on hazing of the women under his command. And while he was at that language course, he took to volunteering to escort the women who wanted to venture out into the city.
that's good. But of course bullying (hazing) shouldn't be considered ok period for men or women even though it might be even harder on the women. Like it would somehow be ok to haze guys (wasn't there a movie about that ...)
ApatheticNoMore
6-2-14, 9:34am
I am so not up to speed on any of this.... if you aren't either, here's the first article that came up when I googled #Yesallwomen
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/commen...taco_talk_mead
I haven't read article yet, but will get to it.
Hmm I think that's a separate issue kinda. I think those who oppose the trigger warnings minds automatically go to great literature and think: "what all great literature on difficult subjects is going to have warnings now - Shakespeare will have warnings now?". And so on ... And those who are in favor of them minds might go to much more modern forms of communication like graphic violence in movies.
If I could tackle this issue from another angle . . . .
When Ned got back to the US, he asked me if stuff like this had ever happened to me. I told him about men in the subway taking advantage of crowded cars to rub up against me, of the places I simply didn't go by myself after dark, of all the precautions that a single woman living in a large city takes, to the point where they just become what you do everyday. He was again stunned.
What I'm trying to say is that the "good guys" don't get it. They don't understand what women go through on a daily basis to keep themselves safe. My brother had heard women he had no reason to doubt telling him what happened to them, and he didn't believe them until he saw/heard it for himself.
There is such a huge gap between the way many women live, constantly vigilant, and the way most men live, not worrying about sexual assault at all, that there are times I wonder if the gap can be bridged.
Exactly. It's things you do "to the point where they just become what you do every day". I am not a terribly fearful woman, and the worst thing that has ever happened to me was an ass-grope in a crowd so I'm lucky. The point of Yesallwomen is that this really *does* happen to all women, or very nearly so. Not all women have been raped, or feared they would be, or been a victim of physical violence. But what woman has not, ever, been cat-called on the street? Been followed in her car while she was driving? Been told she shouldn't do X alone? By X I mean, go backpacking in her own or another country, drive across the United States, ride a bike a few miles at a normal time of day, go to a club/concert, etc etc etc?
Have you ever thought, while driving late at night, that if a cop pulls you over you should put your flashers on to acknowledge the cop and drive to a well-lit gas station before pulling over, just in case? Have you ever had someone tell you that you should get a carry permit just in case? Ever watch a friend/boss/family member's face contort with concern when you mentioned planning a trip by yourself? Ever listen to your friend describe her date-rape, then try very hard to figure out how she might have misjudged the guy, so you could tell yourself there's no way that would ever happen to you?
No, not all women live in abject fear all the time, though certainly some do. But it's so much more insidious than most men think about. If you wonder about whether something's specific, try mentally switching the sex of the people involved, or thinking of them as all men. If an older man at work thinks it's OK to drape an arm over the shoulder of a young, very junior, woman and nobody says anything because "he's from the old-school era", that's crap. Would he drape an arm over a young man the same way? Nope. Would George W Bush have given Putin a little shoulder squeeze the way he did to Angela Merkel? Nope. I'm sure there are plenty more examples, but you would just need to read the hashtag for a couple of minutes.
Gardenarian
6-2-14, 12:49pm
When I was in college and living in a city I really was fearful of walking down the streets. It was rare to go for a block without some cat-calling or rude comments. I would not walk alone at night at all. Several of my friends were victims of rape. This was in Boston in the 1970s. I think violent crime has decreased a lot since then - at the time, it was something we were all intensely aware of, taking place in "Take Back the Night" marches and so on.
I think the big issues now are pornography, prostitution, and sex slavery.
It's all the treatment of women as a collection of orifices rather than human beings, and #Yesallwomen.
Miss Cellane
6-2-14, 8:03pm
but I don't think all women live this way. I don't spend much time thinking about it though I don't do dumb things with regard to safety (I don't' wander around dangerous streets at night, I do wander around safe streets at night to my mom's constant annoyance). So it's kind of not in my name, not all women. But that there are safer and more dangerous places to find yourself - yea. I do live where I feel safe etc.. Whereas I think if they had said SOME women they would have been on unchallengable ground (so the whole claiming to speak for all women - no you don't - was annoying. Ugh. How about "all women" no more feel or experience or interpret life one way than "all african american's", "all asians" "all gays" etc.?). I mostly start thinking about the issue of safety when ridiculous nonsense gets proposed like talking about the guy that lived in his car to save money. Ok nothing against him, but as a woman I'd feel at risk living in my car. I think IT'S DIFFERENT FOR A WOMAN. Better have things for self-defense if you live in your car, well yea kinda (or if your camping alone) ... but probably better not to live in your car to save money! :) And there are things that might put me at risk that I could see starting with a guy or as a guy but not alone.
The bolded is exactly what I mean. It's not that you live in fear 24/7, but that women in general need to be more protective of themselves, more aware of where they are and who is around them then men in general do.
That's what yesallwomen is about.
You know the bad areas of town and don't go there. Men, on the other hand, might not even think that there are bad areas in town. Men don't debate walking home from the bus stop after dark or getting a cab, they just walk.
that's good. But of course bullying (hazing) shouldn't be considered ok period for men or women even though it might be even harder on the women. Like it would somehow be ok to haze guys (wasn't there a movie about that ...)
I used the wrong word there. Not hazing, so much as sexual hazing? He didn't have any reports of rape, but there were some women under his command at times that were subjected to nude girly pictures in locker rooms, cat calls, things of that nature. He cracked down on them pretty sharply. (What I told him was, "Would you want someone at my job doing that to me?" and that seemed to get through to him.)
Miss Cellane
6-2-14, 8:11pm
I remember a conversation with my dad I had once, about rape.
His argument was that the woman was asking for it, every time. She had to be doing something to attract the man who raped her.
Obviously, I disagreed.
"So, Dad, if a woman is out jogging, all sweaty and messy, wearing baggy grey sweats and someone rapes her, it's her fault?"
"Yes, what she was wearing or doing must have been leading the guy on."
"So what you are telling me is that there is nothing I can wear or do that will prevent someone from raping me? That no matter what, if I accidentally wear an outfit that 'leads a guy on,' it's okay for him to rape me?"
The look on his face as he studied his own argument from the other side, the point of view of his own daughter, was, in its way, heartbreaking. He realized, in a split second, that his entire argument worked for the men who raped, but not for the women who were raped. He realized his own daughter was vulnerable--he simply had not realized that his world view led to a world where even his wife and daughter could be raped and the man responsible could get off scot free.
I've spent 3+ decades now teaching primarily women how to deal with abusers and stalkers. It's been quite educational. I've seen and heard things that would destroy the spirit to simply type here.
As a father, I began training my own daughter when she was about 5, because I don't have much faith that any amount of #yesallwomen hashtags, national conversations, or take back the night marches will reduce the risk to her significantly during her lifetime...
Miss Cellane
6-2-14, 8:23pm
I've spent 3+ decades now teaching primarily women how to deal with abusers and stalkers. It's been quite educational. I've seen and heard things that would destroy the spirit to simply type here.
As a father, I began training my own daughter when she was about 5, because I don't have much faith that any amount of #yesallwomen hashtags, national conversations, or take back the night marches will reduce the risk to her significantly during her lifetime...
I have taken self defense lessons and studied a couple of different martial arts. I'm under no illusion that I can escape from a guy significantly taller, larger or stronger than me. But I hope I can make him regret, in some small way, choosing me as his target.
I have taken self defense lessons and studied a couple of different martial arts. I'm under no illusion that I can escape from a guy significantly taller, larger or stronger than me.
I agree, odds aren't good, with traditional "self defense" and formal martial arts approaches. Strength, weight, conditioning, and speed are hard to beat. This is why the folks I work with teach more than just that. Weapons, for instance. (And not the "let's carry a handgun in the purse as a magic talisman" approach :-) )
But I hope I can make him regret, in some small way, choosing me as his target.
To be fair, there is a lot to be gained simply with situational awareness and projecting good body language.
But when that doesn't work, you need more than just self-esteem and some self-defense tricks from a short class.
Miss Cellane
6-2-14, 8:41pm
I agree, odds aren't good, with traditional "self defense" and formal martial arts approaches. Strength, weight, conditioning, and speed are hard to beat. This is why the folks I work with teach more than just that. Weapons, for instance. (And not the "let's carry a handgun in the purse as a magic talisman" approach :-) )
To be fair, there is a lot to be gained simply with situational awareness and projecting good body language.
But when that doesn't work, you need more than just self-esteem and some self-defense tricks from a short class.
A friend of one of my other brothers lived in Boston at the same time I did. He passed me as I was walking home from work one day, but decided not to even say "Hi," as apparently I looked, in his words, "mean and don't-mess-with-me."
Some of that I owe to growing up with five pain-in-the-neck brothers.
Back in the 1980s I went with a college friend to the Womyn's Music Festival. yes, it was mostly gay women, and no, neither one of us is gay. It was 3 days in a camp in the woods, and the most glorious thing about it is for the first and only time in my adult life I could be outside all hours of the day or night and not feel in danger.
I would so love to experience that feeling again, but am not naive enough to think it would be possible in today's world.
ApatheticNoMore
6-3-14, 1:08am
I still don't think it has much to do with the Santa Barbara area murders, feels tacked on, hijacked maybe. If society was less misogynistic then people who feel like failures and rejects in society anyway (their own perceptions - and his perception exhibits some clear distortions) and go online to vent their bitterness and hatred in small obscure ghettos (it's kind of significant they go to such obscure places and preach to the choir) online wouldn't do so? Not to mention to commit a premeditated mass murder you have to be mentally ill, evil, or what have you.
The answer in less extreme cases (bitter and angry at women and rejected by not obviously violent lets say) I think IS mental health care. But that's hit and miss, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. So while more mental health care might lower the rate of violence it's not going to catch every looney that slips though. It didn't catch him.
I really liked this article by a sex therapist on how some can benefit from sex therapy (and maybe sex surrogates it suggests though that's bound to be unpopular - legal prostitution - yes well). But even sex workers might work with lonely and desperate and inexperienced and insecure, but wouldn't want to work with violent and scary! (and they have a RIGHT to protect themselves and to REFUSE to work with violent and scary IMO):
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/05/29/hunger-games-killing-fields/
The guy had major problems:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/02/us/elliot-rodger-killings-in-california-followed-years-of-withdrawal.html
Of course the parents claim they did all they could but many people would say it's the whole family system that was dysfunctional, and I'd tend to agree (seldom just the scape goat). But they probably did the best they knew how with a son they didn't understand how to help (well it's not like you need to show you know what your doing to produce kids).
The guy had major problems:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/02/us/elliot-rodger-killings-in-california-followed-years-of-withdrawal.html
Thanks for posting that article ANM, I just read it and many of the other things referred to in this thread.
I'm just shaking my head, "What screwed up animals we are."
I also read the article I quickly slapped up yesterday from The New Yorker, it seemed like grasping at straws to connect 2 mildly connected things that related to modern day feminism. (the trigger warnings as related to #yesallwomen)
I've got to admit, I get so annoyed by many aspects of intellectualism... especially when REAL issues (safety of human beings) are at the core.
A lot of times, I think people recoil from the term 'feminism' because of the theatrics & superfluousness of a small portion of it, when if you really get them off to the side (like you did Miss Cellene) they realize they are in fact not against feminism at all.
Also working through all of this I realized how out of touch with the news I am (I have been just totally swamped & didn't even know about SB shooting) and how much the world is leaving me behind (I'm not a twitter-er or that up to date with current goings on in women's movement, although I was a women's study minor in college...... not to mention I sure didn't know what 'PUA' sites were - Pick Up Artist sites, really?).
Bae - Do you have a specific place that you could refer us to learn more about teaching children to defend themselves?
As a parent, that is my #1 goal to get my kids raised (and beyond) without being violated.
I couldn't even begin to recount all the ways that having Indoor Plumbing affects my choices.
When I was traveling solo abroad, I wouldn't go out after dark because I just didn't want to increase my chances of something not going right.
And on & on & on....
Have you visited the thread or heard about it? Your reaction?
To answer your OP, No I hadn't heard of YesAllWomen & I'm so glad you brought it up here so I could learn about it.
My reaction - Seems like a great thing to me to get information in one popular place....
if it could do even one ounce of good to make things better for ALL of us, men & women, it would be a win... every woman that is violated is some man's mother, wife, daughter, sister, cousin.
(and NO, I don't mean we should value women based on their relation to men)
That's why I can't stand the limiting labels of 'feminism' or 'women's issues' etc. -- it's like the feminine hygiene aisle at the store, of course guys don't walk down it because it doesn't concern them....
when in reality basic human injustice harms all of us
Here is the YesAllWomen link, you don't have to have a twitter account to view it:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/YesAllWomen?src=hash
ApatheticNoMore
6-3-14, 10:57am
I think anything that leads to a more compassionate society is the answer (interpret that however). I just get tired of the twitterization of discourse :) If one really wanted to understand Mr Elliot Rodger they would fully read his manifesto (utter garbage that it is - not for learning but for psychological study), look at his childhood etc. and still be imperfect at understanding him, I mean he's a pretty sick @#$# afterall and not the type of person most really want to study with good reason probably (but murder mysteries have an audience, crime shows, and many shows about real crimes so ... there is the interest in crime as voyeurism and probably mostly harmless - sublimated enough :)). It seems obvious to me he hated himself at least as much as he hated women (yes then it would be preferable if he just killed himself but). And I don't think any amount of yesallwoman could have reached him nor that it was just about misogyny (that was just the surface expression or manifestation of what was going on inside). But I guess if yesallwoman is aimed at anyone it's guys that actually are nice and might be able to change or maybe just to women themselves. It's the twitterization of discourse for things to go off on tangents (and not well articulated ones) as new hash tags pop up in response to other hashtags and I really think societal mysogyny IS a tangent to the SB shootings, basically it's not why he did it (sexual frustration isn't FULLY why he did it either - though working on that might have helped - and social anxiety and self-hatred and well some have even suggested he needed anti-psychotics shrug). If he experienced life as anything it's probably "how much it sucks to be a man", it's not what is expressed in the bravado, but he obviously hated felt social pressures to "be a man" ie to be sexually assertive, to have "sexual conquests" etc. (yes maybe some natural biological frustration too but there's a social layer on top of that), insecurity about being short and of small build etc... And can we admit that for some people it probably does suck to be a man at least as much as it sucks to be #somewomen? (that's what generalizations about the experience of a whole sex will get you!) The social pressure women get to look good especially but also other things, men get about being successful financially, sexually, emotionally and physically tough, "masculine" etc..
So twitterization of discourse, Santa Barbara shootings become a discourse on mysogyny as if that was THE cause (and it's the sole cause - shut up if you think it's actually more complex - 130 characters can't accommodate!). And twitter begins a twitter crusade which is about what twitter crusades are usually about. I guess they mean well? They are usually a very specific pattern: they are always horizontally aimed, aimed to change other people I guess to be less misogynistic, or racist, or homophobic or transphobic or whatever. They are very seldom vertically aimed, by which I mean: they take on power (say racism which is a form of power) but never the concrete manifestations of power as such (corporations and government are what have actual power in this society - and though Twitter crusades could in theory take them on, they seldom do). They always seem to aim to change Joe Schmoe on the street rather than fight D.C. or Wall Street (OWS aside) etc.. - in other words they fight horizontally - aim to change those who are equal or a step up in social power and not the forces that actually rule. They might succeed at that limited aim though, if they make a more compassionate society (again I think it is overall what they aim at, to get Joe Schmoe to treat his fellow man better, but 130 character angry crusades may work for that or not - they aren't a dialogue afterall as they are seldom actually two-way - but hey dialogue is so sold to the highest bidder nowdays anyway (and it is in the mainstream) that why even bother anymore?). Oddly twitter crusades seldom actually aim at horizontal cooperation (crowd sourcing etc..). They leave not only fighting the powerful be (which may be seen as hopeless anyway) but the inherent possibility of using the platform for horizontal cooperation isn't used.
ApatheticNoMore
6-3-14, 10:59am
Also working through all of this I realized how out of touch with the news I am (I have been just totally swamped & didn't even know about SB shooting) and how much the world is leaving me behind (I'm not a twitter-er or that up to date with current goings on in women's movement, although I was a women's study minor in college...... not to mention I sure didn't know what 'PUA' sites were - Pick Up Artist sites, really?).
As a parent, that is my #1 goal to get my kids raised (and beyond) without being violated.
you're doing fine :) Parenting is important (so is the state of the world perhaps, but one priority at a time).
I have dealt with that subtle fear before and I think it is both hard-wired and cultural. I recall going out to stroll around the neighborhood with a young man I thought was OK back when I was around 16. He ended up pinning me down for an hour and threatening me over and over with his hands around my neck. By the grace of something, I lived through whatever he had in mind. I recall continuous wolf whistles and leering stares from men when I was very young. It is hard for a man to understand what it feels like to be considered "prey" by some males. It is very confusing to me (and probably to men) that women are continually portrayed as sex objects which probably inspires both lust and disrespect. And that some women perpetuate that role. Being human in this world is so bizarre, isn't it?
ApatheticNoMore
6-3-14, 12:24pm
I have been in situations where men I got involved with used their superior physical force to intimidate and coerce. Not rape, or date rape, or anything that EXTREME but.
So I could blame MEN but I really think life is more nuanced. I think that the whole dating thing can get endlessly messy when done by immature, damaged, people who get involved with the wrong people.
And I could join in #yesallwoman tweets as hey I could drag up a story or two and I could. If I didn't think they required me to implicitly accept that life is generally more difficult for women than men, which I can't say I do. Life is good as a man if you either are able to fit male stereotypes well (congratulation, no glass ceiling will ever interfere, shoot for the moon) or lacking that if you have a great deal of inner strength (this usually comes from being raised in a truly supportive environment or it comes decades later from inner work - a day late and a dollar short by that point). But in other cases not so much so (I think not just of this @#$#er but how someone like poor Bradley/Chelsea Manning was bullied for being small and gay in the army long before she ever leaked or came out trans). Another pressure men face uniquely is they tend to end up in more fights in high school and so on. Women tease and ocassionally physically fight, men fight period. This can be rough, even if your decent at fighting back, it takes a toll. I basically taught a brother about fighting and not a small guy either - still the incessant having to fight back from bullying was rough.
Gardenarian
6-5-14, 12:06pm
In regard to the Santa Barbara murders, and all the murders of women every day - I think people have trouble seeing this as a class issue. When Trayvon Martin was killed, people could see that it (and the freeing of his killer) were products of institutionalized racism (even though it might be a nutcase holding the gun). In the same way, the murder of the girl who refused to got he prom with her killer was the result of institutionalized sexism.
In the U.S. we like to think of ourselves as individuals, rather than as members of a particular class - even when that class is oppressed and should be fighting back - as with women.
Agreed, Gardenarian. Awhile ago, a guy shot up a Jewish community center and had internet rants about hating Jews, and the press made a deal about how he was an anti-Semite. This guy shot purposefully at a sorority and had internet rants against women but was not a misogynist? Right.
ApatheticNoMore
6-6-14, 11:40pm
Misogyny is a pretty good defense mechanism if your a guy and don't have any success romantically, those grapes are sour anyway (although with that guy his problems clearly seem to predate romantic interest but then they probably almost always do, and predate his misogyny most likely - well unless he had mother problems. And you and I can look at it and see he didn't even seem to be trying to get dates - well yea I call that reality distortion :) ) so it's springs from a pretty deep well.
Anyone who uses that defense mechanism could probably give a rip whether it's socially accepted (half of society has already rejected them afterall - maybe having some actuality in the real world but at least in their minds), I think they know it's not socially accepted (but then at least they're not "nice guys" in their own mind anymore).
I'm not sure what the term misogyny actually adds to understanding (is it a term like "terrorism" that actually has a meaning but eventually adds little to understanding?). And there are things I notice in the day to day, media message that I might term misogynistic (I see "Westward Ho" ads for "100 ways to die in the west" and I get the verbal joke and might even grin, but really I don't like ads where a woman is being referred to as a "Ho" and seeing those ads everywhere in public places, when did that become ok?) But that's all pretty trite compared to mass murder by a lone wacko and I don't think it causes it.
The good that came out of this is that my brother, who ended up as a colonel in the Army, took a very different attitude towards sexual assault than many of his peers, and cracked down firmly on hazing of the women under his command. And while he was at that language course, he took to volunteering to escort the women who wanted to venture out into the city.
The sad truth is that many men are also brutally sexually assaulted in the military. Actually many more so then women but that is mainly due to the greater number of men in the armed forces then women. And it's not just in the military, it's often in any institutionalized setting (even those tony private all-boys schools). And I personally think it is probably greatly under reported as men are even less likely to report sexual assault then women - due to many factors such as being perceived as homosexuals, weak, Command unlikely to believe them or treat them extremely harshly, the humiliation, the expectation of a tough guy stance, etc... And of course men are brutalized by other men in many other ways too - hazing, fighting, beatings, severe verbal abuse, being some of them. Again, men are less likely to report it yet are still harmed both mentally and physically in ways that can scar them for life. So it's not just a "all women" thing - violence is an "all people" thing and ending it should be addressed for both genders.
But I do agree with you that many men just don't "get" that in some situations women over all are likely to be targeted and harassed that they themselves wouldn't be. And that women often need to be extra vigilant and cautious compared to men. I personally don't see this as misogyny in and of itself (which can take many non-violent forms too) but more just violence and harassment towards those less likely to fight back or who are precieved as weaker targets for both physical assault as well as verbal assault (cat calls included). And I don't see it as the case for all women, but anything that makes people aware of the kind of behaviors that a person (male or female) has to live with is a good thing.
Miss Cellane
6-14-14, 11:21am
Here's a little story, told to me by one of the temps at my office. She also works in retail, at a large department store.
She was working the other day, dressed in the neat, tidy and professional dress code required at the store. (She comes to my office dressed for the retail job sometimes, I've seen her and she's pretty covered up--no cleavage showing, dress slacks, etc.) A customer came in and asked if the store carried a particular item. It did, and she was walking him over to it when he said, out of the blue, "Nice tits."
She was taken aback. She started to just walk away from him, and he shouted after her, "What's the matter? That was a compliment!"
No woman should have to deal with this. This is the low-level sexual harassment that yesallwomen is trying to address. Because if some men think this type of behavior is okay, other men will escalate their own behavior, and it will go beyond just an uncomfortable moment in a public place.
And for the record, she's a 47 year old grandmother. In very good shape, yes. But just in case you were thinking she was a 20 something who lets it all hang out, no, she's not.
have you seen this article about the new view of cultural influences. Speaks well, I think.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/rebecca-solnit-a-breakthrough-in-tackling-violence-against-women-1.2667360
Good article razz. I like the author, Rebecca Solnit, for many reasons, not the least is the term I think she coined, "Mansplaining" where men insist on explaining things to women who already know more than the man does on that subject.
I think what's part of the cultural change is having female police officers, probation officers, lawyers and judges, and women in the legislature. All of those things have helped us here in the western world, at least on the surface, although for sure incidents still occur as Miss Cellane mentioned.
For example, I remember being told about 20 years ago of an incident in a nearby major corporation. A female worker was walking down a hallway where a male worker was talking to a co-worker. As she walked by he "playfully" reached over and patted her butt.
It was reported and he was fired and walked off campus by Security that same day. In the '70s or even '80s, I don't think that would have been a fire-able offense, but when women started filing lawsuits about workplace harassment then suddenly companies paid attention.
I think what's part of the cultural change is having female police officers, probation officers, lawyers and judges, and women in the legislature. All of those things have helped us here in the western world, at least on the surface, although for sure incidents still occur as Miss Cellane mentioned.
.I also think that women themselves, especially younger women who were raised in a more equality-minded and competitive environment with men, are more likely to stand up for themselves rather than just walk away. I think many older women were taught a sort of timidity, to not be confrontational or defend their own selves. That's changed a lot and I can't imagine any of the younger women I know (or myself for that matter) just walking away if someone made a rude comment like the "nice tits" comment Miss Cellanes co-worker endured. Most would be very "up in their faces" about it and confront them on their rude comment. Times, and women, are changing. For the better IMHO.
awakenedsoul
6-16-14, 12:16pm
I've taken two different men to court for harassment. One was a business situation, the other was a neighbor who was an addict. Both were from cultures that don't respect women. It was very effective. I had witnesses, documentation, and tapes. I remember looking at one of the men in the court room as I was testifying. His legs were shaking. This was the second time he had been sued in small claims court for harassment. Both women won their cases. These types of men usually work in a group. In this case, it was a hockey team. Word got around that it wasn't worth it to treat me that way.
Everybody's got a camera on their phone now. If you tape the incident, there's your evidence. You can even post stuff on Youtube. I was able to receive a refund from a verbally abusive voice teacher, by telling him that I would write a detailed review and post the tape if he didn't send me my money. (I had paid hundreds of dollars in advance.) These guys want to save face. He sent a check and I never went back.
Miss Cellane
6-16-14, 12:59pm
I also think that women themselves, especially younger women who were raised in a more equality-minded and competitive environment with men, are more likely to stand up for themselves rather than just walk away. I think many older women were taught a sort of timidity, to not be confrontational or defend their own selves. That's changed a lot and I can't imagine any of the younger women I know (or myself for that matter) just walking away if someone made a rude comment like the "nice tits" comment Miss Cellanes co-worker endured. Most would be very "up in their faces" about it and confront them on their rude comment. Times, and women, are changing. For the better IMHO.
One of the problems for the woman I mentioned is that this happened to her at work, in a retail environment. It's a tough call between telling the guy off and worrying about being fired for being mean or rude to a customer. The impression I got was that the company's policy is that she doesn't have to continue to wait on the customer, but she is very limited as to other means of addressing the situation.
One of the problems for the woman I mentioned is that this happened to her at work, in a retail environment. It's a tough call between telling the guy off and worrying about being fired for being mean or rude to a customer. The impression I got was that the company's policy is that she doesn't have to continue to wait on the customer, but she is very limited as to other means of addressing the situation.That's true. Although I suppose she could have said something like "your comment is extremely rude and debasing and I won't tolerate it. So I will have a management personnel assist you." You can stand up for yourself without being rude or confrontational. But I think often women just walk away without any comment due to some sort of timidity. Recently a bunch of women stepped forward after one women had sort of a verbal smack down with a county supervisior who had made inappropriate comments and touching to her in the work place. Something like 9 other women then stepped forward and said he had been doing the same to them for years but not one of them said anything - to anyone. And I'm thinking how the heck can 9 women not say anything? How can each and everyone let that go without speaking up - to the guy, to a another person? to anyone? It sort of boggles my mind to be honest. Nothings going to change if women (and men who are harassed too) never say anything and just...walk away. Not blaming the victim here, just saying that people need to be bolder to make awareness and change happen.
This reminds me of a recurring incident I had in a retail work environment when I was much younger. One of the male managers would follow me around the store leering and whispering things like "what kind of panties do you have on?" At the time, I just thought he was a weirdo but if that happened now, I would react much differently to that kind of harrassment.
I also think that women themselves, especially younger women who were raised in a more equality-minded and competitive environment with men, are more likely to stand up for themselves rather than just walk away.
Ayup.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-VVgYTxxaEgE/Tvef1EN1L1I/AAAAAAAAEd0/Z_Fj7Esff4g/s720/IMG_0386.JPG
This reminds me of a recurring incident I had in a retail work environment when I was much younger. One of the male managers would follow me around the store leering and whispering things like "what kind of panties do you have on?" At the time, I just thought he was a weirdo but if that happened now, I would react much differently to that kind of harrassment.One thing I always say to women in these kinds of situations is how would you react if the person who was harassing you or saying nasty things to you was saying or doing those things to your young daughter within your hearing? Would you just walk away and never say anything? Would you expect your young daughter to just walk away and never say anything? I don't think so. Most women said that if some guy was say, following their daughter around a store asking what kind of panties they had on, it would take all of their inner strength to keep from shouting down the guy...or worse. Seems that Mom's have a deep inner strength when it comes to standing up for their kids from harassment, and it would be a good thing if they can find that inner strength to stand up for themselves too.
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