View Full Version : Getting afraid for the U.S.
I don't know if this should go in the simple politics forum or not. And I don't want it to turn into a big argument.
I just need to express my concern with so many things going on around me.
Almost every single night people are murdered in the city next to me. There's a huge black youth problem and the city is having trouble figuring out solutions......although they are trying. But I think they are preaching to the choir when they have conferences to figure out what to do.
Then I hear about all those illegal children coming to the U.S...........and we don't know what to do.
Then the senseless shootings seem to be increasing.
I could go on and on about things that seem to be getting out of control here.
It really makes me sad..........especially for the world we might be leaving to our children.
I'm not a social person. All I want to do is to try to make the right choices that don't ruin the environment or cause anyone harm.
I have a very pessimistic attitude about the U.S.'s future.
I truly believe that we are seeing the result of what happens when we all have too much freedom and rights. I haven't a clue how to deal with it.
I'm really feeling that perhaps this is a lesson in what happens when we have such lenient rights.
I'm sure bae will say "Okay.......then how do we choose who has which rights?" I haven't a clue.
It just feels like things are getting out of hand and we can't deal with certain issues because of our "constitution" and our need to be fair and humane.
I just wonder if freedom/no freedom is more of a circle, rather than a straight line............and when everyone has so many rights and freedoms, we head more towards the need for stronger laws and less rights.
I just want to live peacefully and grow my vegetables and enjoy nature and the wildlife around me. But I feel an inferno coming............
.....I have a very pessimistic attitude about the U.S.'s future.
I truly believe that we are seeing the result of what happens when we all have too much freedom and rights. I haven't a clue how to deal with it.
I'm really feeling that perhaps this is a lesson in what happens when we have such lenient rights.....
I share your concern about the future, but disagree on the premise that we have too much freedom and rights. No one has a right to harm another, no one has a right to someone else's property and no one has a right to be a burden on society. But, at the same time society seems to mitigate individual actions and personal responsibilities through the the smokescreen of race, gender, class, etc., effectively telling people they are not responsible for their actions.
In my humble opinion we don't need to restrict anyone's freedom or rights, we need to empower them with the additional freedom of being held responsible for their actions.
I don't know what that means Alan. What does that mean in terms of all the murders around here? What does that mean we should do with those 10's of thousand of illegal children?
I feel like this country is sort of like my big property. Other habitats have been over-developed and too many wild animals come here because it's the only place around with food and cover. Now my property is over-run and resources will be eaten up and destroyed. (It's not that bad here, but it's a good analogy). What if everyone from all different, less free, poorer countries comes here for a better life? It has to have an effect on the quality of life for people already here. When are we ever going to say no to much of anything? When are we going to realize that we just keep taking everyone in, and tolerating everyone's bad behavior?
Politicians don't seem to want to upset ANY culture living here, and won't take a hard stand. Our jails are full and murderers are getting out early........only to murder again.
Alan........what would you do, if you ruled the world?
I don't think everyone IS equal. Some people with rights behave well, others don't. And since our main objective in this country is trying to make as much money as possible, or get (re)elected so you can try to get your own selfish agenda carried out, blah, blah, blah, everything is topsy-turvy. Nothing is as it seems. You can't trust much of the information out there. I hate it.
Haha......I guess you could say I'm having a bad day and just upset when I've been seeing so much not working lately.
I am curious though......in simple terms and examples, can you tell me what you would do to solve some of these problems? Do we HAVE to keep 50,000 illegal children? Do we HAVE to tolerate murders?
I feel like some immigrants and criminals have more rights than the people who are already living here peacefully.
...seem to be increasing.
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/05/us-murder-rate-track-be-lowest-century
http://www.calwatchdog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Murder-Rate-U.S.-1960-2011.png
http://boston.com/community/blogs/crime_punishment/Mass%20Shootings%201976-2010.jpg
(note that the mass shootings chart is raw data, and not per-capita, if you took into account the population increase between 1976 and 2010 (~40%), what would happen to the curve, class?)
I am curious though......in simple terms and examples, can you tell me what you would do to solve some of these problems? Do we HAVE to keep 50,000 illegal children? Do we HAVE to tolerate murders?
I feel like some immigrants and criminals have more rights than the people who are already living here peacefully.
The answer is in the enforcement of laws. In order to make political hay, our President has decided not to enforce our immigration laws, thereby practically inviting those 50,000 illegal children to the country.
The murders is a bigger problem. We prosecute the murderers, yet we condone, facilitate and subsidize the environment which breeds violent people.
Weird, huh?
As far as "too many freedoms and rights", I'm not sure if you've been paying attention to recent events...
NSA spying, drones, authorization for the President to kill US citizens without trial, indefinite detention, PATRIOT I and PATRIOT II, "free speech zones" ...
Though perhaps that is why you put "constitution" in quotes, as our government seems bent on treating it as a historical curiosity...
Though perhaps that is why you put "constitution" in quotes, as our government seems bent on treating it as a historical curiosity...
Of course government does, the constitution places limits on government. Who could possibly want that?
sweetana3
6-10-14, 12:27pm
Cathy, the only thing to do right now given your depression about the things that are happening is to turn off the media and look around. There are as many good things going on in church, community, etc. but they do not reach the media. When I get overwhelmed, I make it a point to talk to and be with others to see just how they are doing and what is going on. Often it makes me aware that I have no problems really.
Our media is a great deal of our issues with mental health. Personal opinion. Cannot stand the haters, the "news" readers, the shocking overstated headlines, the Rush Limbaughs, etc. Murders in Indy are up but not 100% and they continue to happen in the same areas among the same groups of people. The statistics will go up and down. I always look at addresses when a shooting happens. And a big thing is often these are not stranger killings.
Remember that America is known as the "get ahead" country by the rest of the world and our opportunities are considered much greater regardless of what we feel about it. Often we just don't realize how good we have it until we travel abroad and see what life is like in other countries.
it makes me aware that I have no problems really.
It's insulting to me how media portrays mostly terrible, scary things. I KNOW there are far more good things going on but we just don't hear about them to the same extent. I don't watch news much anymore other than local. I'm a cynic about politics but I think there is probably a reason for all the sudden pro-immigration interest. More potential voters? I don't know but it certainly wasn't the general consensus a few years back. As far as random mass shootings, I think the fact that mentally ill people are no longer contained in asylums is part of that problem. DH jokingly says that creating unrest via all these social ills is all part of an evil plot:)
A person could go on, one way or another, blaming the government being too liberal or too restrictive, and depending on the issue there is probably something to each side. My concerns are more cultural, where we really have had it pretty good and are taking the good life we have for granted, expecting more and more consumer goods and services at cheap prices at the expense of more basic values, less willing to share our good consumer based fortune, and less willing to work and educate ourselves for a better future. That is what I think about when I worry about the future of the U.S.
I'm in suburban Chicago. There are a large number of shootings/murders in the city. The state's attorney.is well known to plea.bargain away weapons charges to get the thugs on.something else. So the thugs are on the street fairly soon, shooting again. The shootings/murw are primarily on the south and west sides of the city, black and Hispanic neighborhoods.
Rahm and McCarthy (CPD superintendent) go on and on but the current laws aren't being enforced, so why would new laws help? McCarthy tries to put the blame on concealed carry license holders and legal gun owners, not the thugs. It's just a bunch of hooey.The Chicago media is so PC that tbe description of suspects often omits their race.
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/05/us-murder-rate-track-be-lowest-century
http://www.calwatchdog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Murder-Rate-U.S.-1960-2011.png
http://boston.com/community/blogs/crime_punishment/Mass%20Shootings%201976-2010.jpg
(note that the mass shootings chart is raw data, and not per-capita, if you took into account the population increase between 1976 and 2010 (~40%), what would happen to the curve, class?)
HUm..interesting chart. EVen more so when you realize what happened in '93-'94 to make that dramatic drop in murder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_Handgun_Violence_Prevention_Act
Imagine how the rate would drop even further if we strengthen that law by including all private sales and gun show sales as well. A good example of the plus of gun laws.
Unfortunately we can't outlaw the purveyors of hate and violence, like Fox News, the tea party taliban, Rush Limbaugh, half of the GOP, but maybe we can get stricter regulation on their weapons of choice.
HUm..interesting chart. EVen more so when you realize what happened in '93-'94 to make that dramatic drop in murder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_Handgun_Violence_Prevention_Act
Are you sure it wasn't this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States
I agree it is becoming frightening to turn on the TV here each morning to hear about the overnight shootings. Having friends who are cops and trauma surgeons, both of them are exhausted at catching the lugs who get off easily and patching up their sorry excuses for bodies after they filled them will bullets.
I wish the so-called parents of these thugs would be responsible for their kids and other days I'd like to put them all in isolation so they can fight to the finish and maybe only one of them would walk out. It's so sad.
Here's something from local news.
This article is from April.........there have been 30 more homicides since then, for a total of 72 this year so far. When things happen so close to home, I can't really care about national numbers.
By John Dodge
CHICAGO (CBS) — If somebody told you that Indianapolis has seen more murders than Chicago in the past few days, would you believe it?
It’s true. Way more.
Chicago’s national reputation as a murder-plagued city is well-documented, but a recent outbreak of violence in Indianapolis has been twice as deadly.
Chicago has recorded a total of four homicides since Friday.
As many as eight people were murdered in Indy over the same time period.
Indianapolis police are awaiting for the coroner’s report, but the discovery of a body in an East Side apartment building on Wednesday morning has all the markings of a murder. If confirmed, it would be the eighth murder in just over five days.
According to the Indianapolis Star, police received reports of gunshots in the area around 7 a.m.
The body, which had signs of trauma, was found about 2.5 hours later.
So far in 2014, there have been 41 murders in Indianapolis, putting the city on pace for more than 160. Through March, Chicago Police have recorded 62 murders for the year–the lowest first-quarter total since 1958.
In 2013, Indianapolis police said the city recorded its highest murder rate in seven years, according to media reports. A total of 124 people were murdered, putting its homicide rate at 17 per 100,000 people.
By comparison, Chicago had 415 murders in 2013, for a rate of 15 per 100,000. While murders were at their lowest level since the mid-1960s, Chicago is still more violent in terms of murders than Los Angeles and New York.
One of the most disturbing shootings was a man who walked into a 7-11 type store, shot the clerk in the head, and then SKIPPED through the parking lot. He hasn't been found yet.
I, personally, see the benefit of capital punishment in a number of cases.
Cathy, this may sound snarky but it certainly isn't intended to be. It may be time for you to go on a news and media fast. Turn off cable news. Don't buy the newspaper for a few weeks. Change your radio from NPR to a nice classical or easy listening station. In short, take a deep breath and relax.
All the problems you're describing are very, very real. But in the "if it bleeds, it leads," media-saturated environment that we inhabit, it's very easy to lose perspective. Every day, there are millions and millions of people in this country who interact with friends, neighbors and coworkers in ways that enrich the lives of all concerned. People go to work, go to school, spend time with their families, and no one is raped or murdered. While there is poverty and economic inequality in the US, it's also true that most people here enjoy a material standard of living undreamed of by their grandparents (a mixed blessing). There is crime, but overall life is safer most places than it was a few decades ago. People get sick and die, but people also are cured every day of diseases that a generation or two ago would have been a death sentence.
I'm not being pollyanna-ish. I'm pessimistic by nature, so I too sometimes get overwrought about the state of the world. But I don't think obsessing about things we have limited, or no, control over is healthy or productive.
So take some time off. Turn off the TV, go see a funny movie or read a trashy novel. Then, by all means, find some way to try and make the world a better place.
ApatheticNoMore
6-10-14, 2:18pm
Yea with the media perception is not necessarily reality. Murders are down. Might specific types of murders be up like mass shootings of strangers? Perhaps. I don't know. I mean I quite literally have not seen any quantification of this at all, therefore I don't know.
Illegal immigration is also generally down (partly because the economy has been lousy, hey I didn't say it's down for the most wonderful reasons in the world, just that there's much less of it, many went home due to the work opportunities not being there anymore.) Sure there's groups pushing so called "immigration reform", the money behind that wants primarily cheap labor, and it actually also consists of massive border militerization, go figure. Immigration could uptick slightly with the U.S. economy improving slightly.
Too many rights? Well that is pretty vague. But actually the turn toward a complete police state (and it's very complete and all-encompassing and it gets worse every day) made me question whether this was EVER a free country. And I lean toward: NO. No, it never was. Guess that's why it folded like so much cheap scenery. But it is fair to evaluate that stuff on a continium as well and in that case it is getting worse in many ways. More people imprisoned than almost any country and we're somehow too free?
I get to the point I can't process any more news either.
I'm not being pollyanna-ish. I'm pessimistic by nature, so I too sometimes get overwrought about the state of the world. But I don't think obsessing about things we have limited, or no, control over is healthy or productive.
So take some time off. Turn off the TV, go see a funny movie or read a trashy novel. Then, by all means, find some way to try and make the world a better place.
+1 I don't actually advocate complete ignorance about the world and what is going on around one, but some information isn't even that (it's misinformation really), and even that that is real information, too much is just too much.
I don't spend alot of time listening to news.........but I don't like being ignorant of what's happening either. I know there's lots of good interactions between lots of people, but when horrific things happen..........I just feel a need to be aware of them.
And the city with so much crime is very close and my DH works there..........so I feel the need to stay abreast of those things too.
It's sort of a catch-22..........
There are more people in the world today and instant and constant news transmission, so it seems like we're awash in crime. SEEMS is the operative word.
I'd rather be alive today than in any time in the past*, all things considered. But I live in a crime-free bubble; we had a murder here maybe ten or fifteen years ago--a sad case involving mental illness--and our biggest crime problem seems to be drunk or distracted driving.
You can over-concern yourself with the problems of the world--it's easy to do--but there's not much point to it, and it will make you crazy.
*Caligula, Vlad the Impaler, the Spanish Inquisition, centuries of witch-burning--now those were horrific times.
Even as I "type", news about another school shooting, in Troutdale, OR. Two killed ... :(
There are more people in the world today and instant and constant news transmission, so it seems like we're awash in crime. SEEMS is the operative word.
I'd rather be alive today than in any time in the past*, all things considered. But I live in a crime-free bubble; we had a murder here maybe ten or fifteen years ago--a sad case involving mental illness--and our biggest crime problem seems to be drunk or distracted driving.
You can over-concern yourself with the problems of the world--it's easy to do--but there's not much point to it, and it will make you crazy.
*Caligula, Vlad the Impaler, the Spanish Inquisition, centuries of witch-burning--now those were horrific times.
I agree with you, Jane. Best to go on a news fast when it starts dragging you down.
And on the topic of witch burnings, in my explorations of my family history on Ancestry.com I learned that my 10th great-grandmother actually died in prison after being convicted of being a witch in the Salem witch trials. She covered for her daughter (I suppose my 9th great-grandmother), who was on trial for witchcraft, and took the fall by telling the court that she had ridden in from another town on a broomstick. So it would seem that we may be a wee bit more enlightened than we were, at least in some areas.
I'm mostly concerned about the crime in the city near here. The news isn't making these deaths up. It's almost like there is a club of young males and maybe they have to kill someone to get in.
Several really innocent people were killed for no reason at all..........one was out jogging, a couple were store clerks, and so on. I wouldn't mind if they just killed each other of their same violent kind, but innocents are getting gunned down. And my family spends various times in the city.
I know we can't worry all the time (well, actually we can.....haha).........but I would like our odds to be a little better.
DH puts it all out of his mind, and doesn't want to hear about it. That isn't good either.
I agree with you, Jane. Best to go on a news fast when it starts dragging you down.
And on the topic of witch burnings, in my explorations of my family history on Ancestry.com I learned that my 10th great-grandmother actually died in prison after being convicted of being a witch in the Salem witch trials. She covered for her daughter (I suppose my 9th great-grandmother), who was on trial for witchcraft, and took the fall by telling the court that she had ridden in from another town on a broomstick. So it would seem that we may be a wee bit more enlightened than we were, at least in some areas.
Ha! She wasn't convicted by Rev. Nicholas Noyes, was she? He was an ancestor of mine (so proud! :~)). Gotta love those Puritans.
I'm mostly concerned about the crime in the city near here. The news isn't making these deaths up. It's almost like there is a club of young males and maybe they have to kill someone to get in.
Several really innocent people were killed for no reason at all..........one was out jogging, a couple were store clerks, and so on. I wouldn't mind if they just killed each other of their same violent kind, but innocents are getting gunned down. And my family spends various times in the city.
I know we can't worry all the time (well, actually we can.....haha).........but I would like our odds to be a little better.
DH puts it all out of his mind, and doesn't want to hear about it. That isn't good either.
Club? More like gang...
Cathy, I live in downtown Indy and while I am careful, I am not "worried". There are bad areas and bad people in every city. I dont walk down dark alleys, dont wear flashy jewelry, keep my doors locked and do not carry anything visible in my car. I have always worn my purse carried across my body and try to keep aware of my surroundings. These are common sense things.
We are experiencing fewer incidents in our neighborhood this year. We know the police and call them usually at the nonemergency number whenever we see something and want them to know about it. I call when we have strange solicitors for one thing.
Being a convenience store clerk is actually one of the most dangerous jobs in the country. Not much different from the two who walked in and killed the two policemen in Las Vegas. Crazy people with the ability to kill do exist everywhere. Thankfully they are few and far between. I leave it to the police and the informants to catch them. There are neighborhoods here I wont drive in, walk in or otherwise visit but I wont worry about it.
http://www.motherjones.com/files/blog_lead_murder.jpg
But then also:
http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr05/2013/4/9/15/enhanced-buzz-1676-1365534330-0.jpg
And:
http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr02/2013/4/9/15/enhanced-buzz-25466-1365534595-12.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/JustSoStories.jpg/220px-JustSoStories.jpg
http://www.ibmbigdatahub.com/blog/big-datas-bogus-correlations?
Cathy, bad things do happen but as others have indicated, when the media tries for 24/7 news infotainment, they keep rehashing the same stories over and over again. If you lived in India or parts of Africa, the story would be quite different. North America is the place to live, IMHO, for peace and personal safety.
I'm not saying this is a bad place to live. We have it sooooooo much better than so many other places. All I'm saying is that things seem to be worsening and I don't want to lose all the good things we have in this country......like peace and safety. And when it's close to home, it bothers me even more.
Bae.........wtf are you saying?
iris lilies
6-10-14, 8:18pm
...And on the topic of witch burnings, in my explorations of my family history on Ancestry.com I learned that my 10th great-grandmother actually died in prison after being convicted of being a witch in the Salem witch trials. She covered for her daughter (I suppose my 9th great-grandmother), who was on trial for witchcraft, and took the fall by telling the court that she had ridden in from another town on a broomstick. So it would seem that we may be a wee bit more enlightened than we were, at least in some areas.
ah that is such a great family story, the best ever!
The answer is in the enforcement of laws. In order to make political hay, our President has decided not to enforce our immigration laws, thereby practically inviting those 50,000 illegal children to the country.
? "... deportations of unauthorized immigrants continues at record levels." http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/09/19/high-rate-of-deportations-continue-under-obama-despite-latino-disapproval/
Far more deportations than under any other president.
As for the violence, I think whenever you have a large percentage of unemployed young adults, especially men, violence increases. That's true around the world, not just in the U.S. I'd like to see a national job corps like CCC be brought back in full force - national service of 1-2 years, either in a military or civilian capacity for all able-bodied youth.
iris lilies
6-10-14, 8:36pm
I'm mostly concerned about the crime in the city near here. The news isn't making these deaths up. It's almost like there is a club of young males and maybe they have to kill someone to get in.
Several really innocent people were killed for no reason at all..........one was out jogging, a couple were store clerks, and so on. I wouldn't mind if they just killed each other of their same violent kind, but innocents are getting gunned down. And my family spends various times in the city.
I know we can't worry all the time (well, actually we can.....haha).........but I would like our odds to be a little better.
DH puts it all out of his mind, and doesn't want to hear about it. That isn't good either.
You are making yourself unhappy, so to play Dr. Phil here: How's that working for you? Having too much scare tactic news in your brain is not keeping you informed of anything of value, it's just making you unhappy. I don't see why your DH has to listen to all of the scary stuff that happens, what's the point of that for him?
The murder rate in Indy isn't even world class competition. Google "St Louis Murder Rate" and you'll see that we here are always on the podium, Yay for us! Living as I do in the urban core I don't let it worry me. I do resent the f*ctards who crap all over my city with their criminal behavior, but I don't pay mind to them until this happens: when we have "crime spates" or concentrations of crime in and around our neighborhood. That's when we all get together here and communicate about specifics, watching the streets and people who do not belong here. Proactive action is a good antidote to feeling helpless and unhappy about what's going on around you.
The police here are really good about taking swift and effective action when a rapist, house robber, armed robber, or other crimes-against-person perps are roaming. Police are less reactive to thefts of garden hoses and garden gnomes :( and they do a decent job when large swaths of car crimes are happening.
The answer is in the enforcement of laws. In order to make political hay, our President has decided not to enforce our immigration laws, thereby practically inviting those 50,000 illegal children to the country.
? "... deportations of unauthorized immigrants continues at record levels." http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/09/19/high-rate-of-deportations-continue-under-obama-despite-latino-disapproval/
When, by executive fiat, you announce an open door policy for illegal immigrant children, you get a lot of illegal immigrant children.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/09/us/undocumented-children-immigrants/
"Numerous factors have come together to create this unprecedented surge.
Many children are looking to escape violence and worsening economic conditions in their Central American countries. Some want to reunite with their parents who left them behind with relatives and plan to return for them when they can. Better weather is also cited as a factor leading some immigrants to decide to make the trek now.
Cabrera says these crossings began to spike two years ago after the Obama administration announced (http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/15/politics/immigration/)it would stop deporting young illegal immigrants who entered the United States as children if they met certain requirements."
Bae.........wtf are you saying?
I'm saying the objective data doesn't support your fears.
Among other things.
Sadly, the rumor mill south of the border mixed up the Dream Act and other similar circumstances with a blanket okay for women with children, or unaccompanied minors, to have a better chance at eventually being allowed to stay legally.
But the reality, acording to immigration lawyers, is that it not enough to say that your child will be forced into a gang. Almost all of these children will eventually be deported.
gimmethesimplelife
6-10-14, 9:12pm
One of the most disturbing shootings was a man who walked into a 7-11 type store, shot the clerk in the head, and then SKIPPED through the parking lot. He hasn't been found yet.
I, personally, see the benefit of capital punishment in a number of cases.This is truly sick. I don't even know what to begin making of someone skipping after committing murder, especially murder of a stranger which is what I am guessing this is. How can one feel safe after hearing stories like this one time too many? Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-10-14, 9:16pm
? "... deportations of unauthorized immigrants continues at record levels." http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/09/19/high-rate-of-deportations-continue-under-obama-despite-latino-disapproval/
Far more deportations than under any other president.
As for the violence, I think whenever you have a large percentage of unemployed young adults, especially men, violence increases. That's true around the world, not just in the U.S. I'd like to see a national job corps like CCC be brought back in full force - national service of 1-2 years, either in a military or civilian capacity for all able-bodied youth.+1000% on your last paragraph, Lainey. I couldn't agree with national service requirements more. They have this in Austria - if you don't want to spend your national service time in the military, you can work in a hospital, plant trees, work with the elderly, or any other number of projects. I think it keeps young people occupied and out of trouble and thinking more of the future and what they might want it to look like for them. Rob
Mandatory "national service" is simply slavery, sorry, I won't be signing up for that anytime soon, or supporting anyone who endorses that approach.
gimmethesimplelife
6-10-14, 9:19pm
Cathy, this may sound snarky but it certainly isn't intended to be. It may be time for you to go on a news and media fast. Turn off cable news. Don't buy the newspaper for a few weeks. Change your radio from NPR to a nice classical or easy listening station. In short, take a deep breath and relax.
All the problems you're describing are very, very real. But in the "if it bleeds, it leads," media-saturated environment that we inhabit, it's very easy to lose perspective. Every day, there are millions and millions of people in this country who interact with friends, neighbors and coworkers in ways that enrich the lives of all concerned. People go to work, go to school, spend time with their families, and no one is raped or murdered. While there is poverty and economic inequality in the US, it's also true that most people here enjoy a material standard of living undreamed of by their grandparents (a mixed blessing). There is crime, but overall life is safer most places than it was a few decades ago. People get sick and die, but people also are cured every day of diseases that a generation or two ago would have been a death sentence.
I'm not being pollyanna-ish. I'm pessimistic by nature, so I too sometimes get overwrought about the state of the world. But I don't think obsessing about things we have limited, or no, control over is healthy or productive.
So take some time off. Turn off the TV, go see a funny movie or read a trashy novel. Then, by all means, find some way to try and make the world a better place.Very good advice Oldhat. I need to take your advice myself big time. Thanks for posting this. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-10-14, 9:22pm
Mandatory "national service" is simply slavery, sorry, I won't be signing up for that anytime soon, or supporting anyone who endorses that approach.With all due respect, I'm very much going to agree to disagree with you on this one, especially after having spent a few months in a country which enforces mandatory national service and after seeing the positive effects of said national service. Though to be honest with you - I'm trying to put myself in your shoes here, Bae, please bear with me here - had I not spent a few months in a country with mandatory national service and had I not seen positive effects of this service, I might agree with you on this. Why I'm not on the same page with you is that I have seen it in action before and have been quite impressed with what I have seen. Rob
With all due respect, I'm very much going to agree to disagree with you on this one, especially after having spent a few months in a country which enforces mandatory national service and after seeing the positive effects of said national service.
In Austria, how do they deal with those young people who decline to participate?
gimmethesimplelife
6-10-14, 9:29pm
In Austria, how do they deal with those young people who decline to participate?Good question Alan. I will send an email off to my family and find out.....in my circle there no one declined but there must be someone somewhere who has. Rob
ah that is such a great family story, the best ever!So true. Of course Catherine knows we are probably all wondering about the apple, the tree, and just how far it has fallen :-)! Of course the best story would be if Jane's ancestor really was the trial judge.
For Cathy A - I kind of agree with many of the posters who say that the crime rates (for violent crimes) really hasn't increased lately but that media coverage of any and all events has. Statistic-wise street gangs have always been involved with daily shootings and knifings and killings of all sorts (at least here on the mean streets of L.A.) and innocent people get caught in the violence. But we have actually seen a decrease yet the media coverage makes it seem like the we are going to hell in a handbasket asap. I don't believe that, and see that things are getting better overall crime-wise. But when it's close to home it seems much worse.
Mandatory "national service" is simply slavery, sorry, I won't be signing up for that anytime soon, or supporting anyone who endorses that approach.
I agree (same with the Draft) however for countries like Austria, Sweden, etc... who offer such taxpayer supported perks as free college educations, amongst many others, I see it as a way of requiring a person to "give back" to their country to earn those perks. I know that isn't how it works in reality, but if it were a voluntary system - you do 2 years of military or community service and we'll give you 2 years of paid college education - then I'd see it as a good thing. And I suppose if those who choose to live in the country and partake of those free taxpayer supported service didn't want to do mandatory service, they could leave (unlike with the US Draft).
ApatheticNoMore
6-10-14, 10:07pm
There are countries with mandatory national service that are at least as bad as the U.S. if not worse, so.
But imagine a young person. Are we really going to add 2 years of mandatory national service on top of 4 years of near (but not quite) mandatory college education before they can start their lives? And more if they choose a career that requires more education. Why don't we add 20 hours of mandatory national service on top of middle aged adults 40 hour or more work weeks? Seems at least as fair to me. But the national service jobs might be better than whatever jobs young people scrape together for a penny today? Well they might or they might not. But they could be without it being mandatory.
By the way I'm not keen on it as a method to pay for college either, since that becomes almost the same thing as mandatory national service and really only a hairs difference (in an economy where the jobs seldom exist without having the piece of paper and where exploding college costs would force it). It's mandatory national service by the back door.
In Austria, how do they deal with those young people who decline to participate?This: Conscripts can choose to serve seven months instead of six and have a shorter reserve obligation. Some may serve their full obligation of eight months at one time and have no reserve obligations, but this may occur only at the army's discretion. Under a 1974 law, conscientious objectors can be assigned work as farm laborers, medical orderlies, or other occupations in lieu of military service. Exemptions from service are liberally granted-- in 1992 about 12,000 persons were exempted, a great increase over the 1991 total of 4,500. The increase occurred after a new law, valid only for 1992 and 1993, no longer required young men to present their objections to the military in a credible way. Previously, that had not been the case. In 1990, for example, two young men rejected by the alternate service commission on the grounds that they did not present their beliefs in a credible manner were sentenced to prison terms of three months and one month, respectively
awakenedsoul
6-11-14, 12:21am
CathyA, I completely see what you're saying. The school shootings, the violence, the danger. I don't have t.v., so I just read the articles. I think mental illness and drug use have skyrocketed. Also, masses of people who can't afford children are having them anyway.
Rob, I worked in Vienna, Austria, and I was very impressed. I heard from my boyfriend there, and he said that they now have a real problem with people coming from Turkey. Same issues of poverty, etc. as here. He said it's changed a lot. When I was there, everyone seemed very well off. I was amazed at the kindness and respect I saw in the general public. People really followed the rules there. It's mostly Catholic. The art and culture were supreme. I performed with the show 42nd St. there, and they were the best musicians we had ever had. Incredible classical training...
I'm also concerned, CathyA. But, I do my best to focus on what I want to create.
Bae, please bear with me here - had I not spent a few months in a country with mandatory national service and had I not seen positive effects of this service, I might agree with you on this. Why I'm not on the same page with you is that I have seen it in action before and have been quite impressed with what I have seen. Rob
Rob - the end does not justify the means.
I don't care if two years of forced labor cures cancer, stops global warming, and gives everyone on earth a pony. It still is not *right* to take a year, or a day, or an hour of someone's life away from them against their will.
gimmethesimplelife
6-11-14, 12:37am
Rob - the end does not justify the means.
I don't care if two years of forced labor cures cancer, stops global warming, and gives everyone on earth a pony. It still is not *right* to take a year, or a day, or an hour of someone's life away from them against their will.With all due respect Bae, I'm once again agreeing to disagree with you. In return for the wonderful social welfare one gets in Austria that one does not get here - though I will admit it's been cut back a bit in recent years and I don't know it's future - let's just say it remained where it is now for some time out into the future, and I were young today - I'd gladly and without a second thought commit to mandatory non-military national service. It really seems a no-brainer to me. But that's just me, and YMMV, I get that. Rob
PS Another thought - what makes you think some haven't comparison shopped the US and what is on offer here vs. what is on offer where they are and decided to commit willingly to mandatory national service? What makes you think that this is against the will of the majority? I'll grant that scattered here and there there may be those who feel this way - sure. But my experience in Austria? Nope.....people may not be shouting from rooftops with joy but they comply and then later reap the rewards. Seems like a good deal overall to me.....Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-11-14, 12:53am
What I'm mostly afraid for the US about is this continuing mentality on the right of self-sufficiency and I've got mine, you go get yours - in an economy bleeding and offshoring decent paying jobs and leaving little opportunity behind. This in my mind creates at least some of the instability and violence that we as a nation are experiencing. I do think if things continue with so much debt fueled spending by the government to prevent social collapse and so much obliviousness of the right to what is actually happening to the average working person in the US - eventually this system will collapse and there's a part of me that says good riddance, it's way beyond it's expiration date as we speak. There's part of me that dreads such, too, as it is not going to be pleasant or comfortable. I'm 47 now.....saying I live an average life span, I'm thinking if something doesn't give or change I'm likely to see this happen. I hope as we all do for the best and some reversal of fortune here but I am not the slightest bit in denial of debt loads vs. scarily declined opportunity for most. I'm not able to sugar coat this or spin it or pretend it's not real. I really do worry for the US, I don't believe the future here is going to resemble the past boom years very much at all. I'm OK with continued standard of living declines, what bothers me is the prospect of social unrest and the government clamping down. Not pleasant thoughts at all. Rob
"In return for the wonderful food the farmer gives us, mandatory slaughter seems a fine deal."
Who ultimately owns your person, Rob? You, or "society"?
If I come up to you on the street, abduct you against your will for a day to work for me, but give you payment and benefits at the end of the day when I release you, it is still called slavery, or kidnapping, and you are quite justified under most legal systems in using lethal force to prevent this insult to your person and your freedom.
So what makes it right for several of your neighbors to vote to use your time against your will? Even if they give you all sorts of goodies at the end of the day?
Nothing. Just because a majority of people decide it is OK to use you against your will doesn't change the matter. (I get it, some people enjoy singing spiritual songs while picking cotton in the fields and having their needs taken care of by the Master in the Big House....)
Now, if it is a *voluntary* arrangement, that is a completely different matter.
gimmethesimplelife
6-11-14, 1:04am
"In return for the wonderful food the farmer gives us, mandatory slaughter seems a fine deal."
Who ultimately owns your person, Rob? You, or "society"?
If I come up to you on the street, abduct you against your will for a day to work for me, but give you payment and benefits at the end of the day when I release you, it is still called slavery, or kidnapping, and you are quite justified under most legal systems in using lethal force to prevent this insult to your person and your freedom.
So what makes it right for several of your neighbors to vote to use your time against your will? Even if they give you all sorts of goodies at the end of the day?
Nothing. Just because a majority of people decide it is OK to use you against your will doesn't change the matter. (I get it, some people enjoy singing spiritual songs while picking cotton in the fields and having their needs taken care of by the Master in the Big House....)
Now, if it is a *voluntary* arrangement, that is a completely different matter.I'm willing to let society have some small portion of my life for mandatory non-military national service IF AND ONLY IF it's in my future best interest - and the best interest of others around me, too - to do so. In Austria and some other countries it is in my best interest, and other people's interest, too. Here not so much. If anything you of all people Bae should approve of this line of thinking because it is indeed very capitalistic.....interesting that you would not make this connection, at least as I see it. Rob
iris lilies
6-11-14, 1:49am
I'm willing to let society have some small portion of my life for mandatory non-military national service IF AND ONLY IF it's in my future best interest - and the best interest of others around me, too - to do so. In Austria and some other countries it is in my best interest, and other people's interest, too. Here not so much. If anything you of all people Bae should approve of this line of thinking because it is indeed very capitalistic.....interesting that you would not make this connection, at least as I see it. Rob
How is this "capitalistic?"
But anyway, Rob you are entirely too willing to ceed your freedom to that which you perceive will act in your best interest, the government (and any and all government, it seems.)
That said, the stories of coming from DH's cousins and uncles who are all part of Switzerland's national army makes it seem like mustering is a big fun summer camp.
gimmethesimplelife
6-11-14, 2:32am
How is this "capitalistic?"
But anyway, Rob you are entirely too willing to ceed your freedom to that which you perceive will act in your best interest, the government (and any and all government, it seems.)
That said, the stories of coming from DH's cousins and uncles who are all part of Switzerland's national army makes it seem like mustering is a big fun summer camp.What's capitalistic about this to me, anyway, is that I am not just going along with plan but I am thinking about what's in it for me and for other people, and if it's in my best interest and if society gets anything out of it, too. There is definitely some self interest in this thought process. Rob
That all said, from what my family and their friends have told me, in Austria national service is not akin to a summer camp. I understand that you are expected to work.
About ceeding - is this a word? - my freedom to any government - I learned long ago (starting at age 9) that American style capitalism doesn't work for everyone. I'm grateful I learned this so young - it makes me more open to other arrangements and ways of thinking and for that I'm grateful. There is some good in the US, I won't deny that, but it is not for everyone by any means. For those for whom it doesn't work, it is not necessarily a problem or defect on their part - 13 when I figured this one out. Certainly before I ceed anything I'm going to look it over and figure out if it's in my best interest and the best interest of others - especially those I care deeply about. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
6-11-14, 3:05am
Who ultimately owns your person, Rob? You, or "society"?
mostly my employer but they give me a few hours off for good behavior.
gimmethesimplelife
6-11-14, 3:08am
mostly my employer but they give me a few hours off for good behavior.LOL good one and so true for so many. Rob
With all respect, Mr. Rob, what makes you believe that you know what the future will be like for you and the ones around you and, therefore, what will be the best or even good for that (un)kown future? What makes you think that you can tell and foresee what is in the best interest of anyone?
If you or someone around you were an army person and mandatory military service would secure your job with various benefits that would be good?
Does you believing that something is in the best interest of somebody justify things such as dragging an immature almost-child to army where he will be bullied and fed with nonsense information dictated by several levels of corrupted government employees only to learn how to march and where the trigger is so that he can be efficiently pulled into a battle for ideas he doesn't believe in several years down the line? Does it justify forcing anyone involuntarily 'volunteering' for a civil service job that does not make sense to the person instead of that? Does it give any meaning to the surrounding bureaucracy and and artificially created civil service job opportunities and struggle to estimate and fulfil the quotas for either one of the options young men are given?
ApatheticNoMore
6-11-14, 3:47am
Even if it actually was in some long term best interest, 18 or 21 year olds however brilliant they are (and they often are!) don't necessarily have the life perspective to know what they will see as their best interest when they are 40 or 50 or something and they are occupied by much more urgent tasks! And their tasks are urgent to them (becoming adults for instance). So they should be forced to do what we assume is in there long term best interest? Actually NO! They should be allowed the natural human growth process, to mature, assume adult responsibilities, gain wisdom (ok ideally they DON'T have kids UNTIL they are somewhat mentally and emotionally mature but beyond that). Because that is what is urgent to them at that time.
What makes you think that you can tell and foresee what is in the best interest of anyone?
one really can't. Maybe for some young people their best interest is to just to move out of the house or get a steady job (if their previous life was unstable economically or otherwise, a steady job is steady). Or maybe it's to study music. Maybe it's to socialize. Some of these may work well with national service or not depending. And the "dependign" is why the problem is the mandatory part.
If you or someone around you were an army person and mandatory military service would secure your job with various benefits that would be good?
Does you believing that something is in the best interest of somebody justify things such as dragging an immature almost-child to army where he will be bullied and fed with nonsense information dictated by several levels of corrupted government employees only to learn how to march and where the trigger is so that he can be efficiently pulled into a battle for ideas he doesn't believe in several years down the line?
If it drives one person to join the MILITARY that wouldn't have (even though they could have chosen civilian service) then that's a lot of blood on one's hands! Planting trees when they want to do other things with their life is still not great, but it's less evil, it may be perceived as a waste of time and energy and life, but the military is much more than this. What if they lose limbs, what if they go through life with PTSD, chronic nightmares, guilt, deteriorating mental health? This is what the military does to young adults, real human beings. That is war. If we absolutely had to have national service the military should be ABSOLUTELY equivocally excluded from even counting toward it whatsoever IMO. (which will probably derail the whole idea since I suspect they want cannon fodder and military values incalculated but ...).
If we want civil service workers to perform some tasks (hey it's not blowing people away so it might actually have some value) the question always remains: WHY NOT JUST PAY THEM? We need more workers employed doing some useful tasks. Ok then pay them. We need more people to plant trees. Ok then pay them, or rely on true volunteers. Young people are not a convenient tax reduction plan because older people don't want to pay taxes.
I appreciate that some of you are responding to my distress over things and have offered tips about how to balance things out. But to be honest, I'm just really surprised at how many people are discounting the horrible violent daily occurrences that are happening locally and nationally. Last night, yet another local shooting and another school shooting in the U.S.
Is this what we're just getting used to, and learning to ignore it? Yes, I'm aware of the media's "if it bleeds, it leads".......but a murder is a murder.
How long are we as citizens of this country going to accept this as business as usual??
And why do you believe charts and graphs over reality? You can show me all the charts there are, but I'm still going to find certain things, in any number, unacceptable. The media doesn't make up murders. Would you rather not know they are going on so you can pretend they don't exist?
And bae, living on a remote island and showing graphs and charts is just silly. And a chart comparing an increase in murders to eating ice cream is insulting.
Like I said.......a murder is a murder, no matter how it's spun/amplified/discounted.
CathyA: I think there is not much a person can do about that. Apart from not murdering anyone, leading the best life he can and setting an example and making sure to raise their children to be the best people they can become.
The increasing brutality and number of violent crimes may make me sad or scared (and it does) but I cannot stop it. What I can do is not to get too stressed about it. I don't watch TV, read newspapers or listen to the radio. If there is something REALLY important happening the news will find their way. Otherwise ... I am not going to support the kind of media that there are nowadays and I am not going to fill my life with worry only because the media are constantly supplying ever growing amount of sensations and information about disasters.
I don't see cutting off the news as an act of ignorance. I see it as a means to keep sanity. There have always been murders. Kain killed Abel. Killing not business as usual. But the constant media coverage is.
There were times when a murder was something terrible and shocking that happened once in a while and everyone in the neighbourgoud knew about it and leared a lesson. Now we don't only hear about a crime that happens nearby and affects our community. We hear about just about everything that happens around the world and it's becomming part of routine. I refuse that. I don't want to read bloody stories from a remote city and continent and pay the media that will only use more paper to write even more terrible stories from even more remote continents about problems of society I have absolutely no chance to influence.
I remember the morning I stopped reading the daily newspaper - it was when they completely stopped publishing the part local part of it. Mr. xxx died after short illness, our high school s got the roof repaired and philatelists club is inviting you to their meeting was less important than very very detailed description of a terrible car crash that happened in Japan and mass murder in Argentina. OK, I don't want to pay for that kind of news nor would I want my kids to read that kind of news and learn that that's what's important in the world.
And why do you believe charts and graphs over reality? You can show me all the charts there are, but I'm still going to find certain things, in any number, unacceptable. The media doesn't make up murders. Would you rather not know they are going on so you can pretend they don't exist?
And bae, living on a remote island and showing graphs and charts is just silly. And a chart comparing an increase in murders to eating ice cream is insulting.
Like I said.......a murder is a murder, no matter how it's spun/amplified/discounted.
Cathy, you're not going to convince a market researcher that charts and graphs are silly :) What the charts are trying to show is quantifiable data proving that in some cases, the rate of violence is actually down, a counterpoint to your OP that said that violent actions are going up.
Of course violence is unacceptable. One senseless, tragic death is one too many. I don't think anyone here is disputing that. Nor are we taking any loss lightly.
I think when you see things that are happening across the country in ways that you can't control, it leads to frustration and anger. But the answer is not to despair--we need to do need to address violence--on an individual level first, and then on a local level. And unfortunately it is true that the media panders to exactly what they know is going to hit our hot buttons. You see these one-off events, and it become confirmation bias.. where you can say, "See, there's another shooting! I told you we're going to hell in a handbasket!"
Every one of us experiences confirmation bias. Every day. It helps to be sensitive to it, but also to really try to "do what you can and accept the rest." Otherwise, it will mess with your head.
I think the country needs a lot of work in a LOT of areas, and I think the US is at a tipping point for a lot of reasons. But please try to see that for every deranged shooter there are probably at least four committed individuals out there starting an organization or a non-profit for sustainability, community, new economic models, and social justice. I actually JUST saw a great video by Paul Hawken saying that we (meaning the whole world, and we here on this forum are part for sure) are in the middle of a HUGE groundswell in which there are literally hundreds of thousands of organizations that have sprung up at the grassroots level to fix some of the things that are broken--he calls it "Blessed Unrest."
So, let us mourn the violence, but let us take comfort in the other reality--the reality that is showing up in the millions of small local actions all over the world (which do NOT get covered by mainstream media) that may eventually save us from ourselves.
http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/paul_hawken_blessed_unrest_and_wiserearth/
Thanks meri and catherine.
I appreciate how you present things to me, and not with some tongue-in-cheek chart.
I agree about not wanting to hear about things far away. But at what point do we become concerned that we no longer want to hear about bad things happening in our community/nation? What is the difference between not wanting bad things to depress us, and having our minds/souls numbed to it happening, and potentially indirectly contributing to its growth?
Those charts are an average of the nation, right? If you live in a low crime area....that's great. But we can have all sorts of crimes going on locally, with our murder rate up considerably, but people look at it and think
"oh, it's okay.....we're all okay". I'm happy for all those cities with lower murder rates, but it does give me great concern when ours (locally) is up considerably. And it wouldn't surprise me if some things are suppressed by officials, to make their cities look safer.
I HAVE raised my children with great values and sensitivity. I am so very proud of who they are. I knew at the time that that was the best thing I could give to our country and our future. But........I'm seeing people with good values being gunned down for no reason at all, except the creep wanted to kill someone.
I will try to see the good around me..........but I can't ignore the bad stuff, 'cause it's coming to a theater near me.
No one is expecting you to ignore the bad stuff just keep in mind the overwhelming good stuff that is rarely reported in the media. I was in your state of thought not that long ago so can relate to what you are concerned about. I finally disconnected the TV, got my news once a day from three different sources to be fully informed and then stepped back to doing what I could to make a difference - growing a garden, loving and supporting my family and friends and taking aggressive charge of my mental health so that I could play my part as needed.
A wise friend once told me when I was facing a challenge in knowing how to help someone who was in distress - if your friend/s were in a boat sinking due to holes, do you jump in and cry with them trying to prevent the sinking that way, or, do you throw them a lifeline by offering a different approach to try, a lifebuoy or call EMS. I chose not to jump into the boat then or now. That approach has worked very well when others needed a rock of support. That support is what we are offering to you, as I see it anyway.
Are you sure it wasn't this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States
nO, actually concealed carry laws, which really gained traction after 2000 would be the CAUSE of the leveling off/up-tick in murders at that time. Then we see another drop happening in 2007/2008. Could it be because of this?
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2008/03/06/gun-control-laws
* note in 2007
"After the massacre at Virginia Tech, Congress closes a loophole in the National Instant Criminal Background Check System by requiring states to automate lists of people prohibited from buying firearms, including felons and the mentally ill, and put them in the federal database."
Now wasn't that fellow killed in Walmart carrying concealed? I'm sorry he was killed, but glad he DIDN'T start 'defending' before they killed him. A Rambo style shootout in Walmart would probably have killed even more. As it was this would-be 'protector' managed to just get himself killed. If he had run out like everyone else, like the CRAZIES themselves told everyone to do, he would still be alive, and the deranged right wing tea partiers would have killed only themselves in a blaze of deranged glory.
This is one of my biggest issues with concealed carry. Armed with a gun makes these people feel invincible and much too ready to dive head first into a Dirty Harry/Rambo/George Zimmerman 'save the day' fantasy. Only they aren't Rambo or Dirty Harry. They are George Zimmerman, or this guy who gets himself killed.
If in fact murders are down, and crime is down, why is the NRA, and right wing media/tea party, etc... amping up the fear mongering rhetoric that we all need to arm ourselves to the teeth in this horribly dangerous country!
Of course Cathy is fearful of increasing crime. We are told everyday, screamed at really, about how we all need to ARM ourselves, lock and load, conceal carry, open carry in Texas, all to 'protect' ourselves. We are told, by Fox, The NRA, the Right wing conservative party, that things are SO bad we actually NEED to walk around the streets, in restaurants, bars, churches, schools, home improvement stores, everywhere really, fully armed with semi-automatic guns slung over our shoulders! This is the message we are given. Every day. So saying "Keep calm, crime is down...murders are down...(while stuffing a handgun into each pocket and slinging a semi-automatic over the shoulder)..nothing to fear...here's a chart.." is total bs. Apparently SOMEONE is afraid..:0!
DH tends to dwell on bad news too regardless of its validity or correlation to our lives. My armchair analysis is that it is because all the bad news makes him feel powerless and thus renders him not responsible for making it better. I try to share with him what I have come to believe - our attitudes and approaches to life become ingrained habits. To overcome them, one has to make a dedicated effort to exercise new ways of thinking - sort of like daily exercise to strengthen muscles. I wish I had understood this years ago. I do wish though that there was a shared sense of optimism about the future as it seems like that has nose-dived.
ApatheticNoMore
6-11-14, 12:43pm
If one's neighborhood is that bad maybe the best thing one can do is MOVE. But not everyone has the money to move. Yes of course. But if one can. Whatever is happening in the country often is frankly happening FAR AWAY. Florida is a long way from here. Maine is a long way from here. So that means what happens in those places don't matter in some moral sense? No. To the extent I have any impact on any policies that might help them I guess I can exercise it. But I don't have that much impact. To the extent I have an impact on a U.S. foreign policy that effects the whole world the same thing applies.
DH tends to dwell on bad news too regardless of its validity or correlation to our lives. My armchair analysis is that it is because all the bad news makes him feel powerless and thus renders him not responsible for making it better.
Maybe he should just drop the high standards to do so much to make it better :). We're not all cut out to be heroes though it is of course admirable to be so. If the burden of being so (of trying to change the world single-handedly) becomes more than one can bear, it doesn't mean social responsibility doesn't matter, it's know one's limits.
gimmethesimplelife
6-11-14, 12:59pm
With all respect, Mr. Rob, what makes you believe that you know what the future will be like for you and the ones around you and, therefore, what will be the best or even good for that (un)kown future? What makes you think that you can tell and foresee what is in the best interest of anyone?
If you or someone around you were an army person and mandatory military service would secure your job with various benefits that would be good?
Does you believing that something is in the best interest of somebody justify things such as dragging an immature almost-child to army where he will be bullied and fed with nonsense information dictated by several levels of corrupted government employees only to learn how to march and where the trigger is so that he can be efficiently pulled into a battle for ideas he doesn't believe in several years down the line? Does it justify forcing anyone involuntarily 'volunteering' for a civil service job that does not make sense to the person instead of that? Does it give any meaning to the surrounding bureaucracy and and artificially created civil service job opportunities and struggle to estimate and fulfil the quotas for either one of the options young men are given?Hi. I just wanted to say that I read your post and you do bring up some interesting points. And you are right, I don't read the future and can't know what the future is going to look like. I am also against forced military service - if you read my posts here I mention I'm willing to go along with non-military mandatory national service - I don't know if all countries with mandatory national service offer this but Austria does.
That all said, one big reason I am all for national service is that one of the perks is free education afterwards. I see you are in the Czech Republic? I don't know how education works there but here most young people have to take out large loans for college and graduate with crippling debt and with the job market the way it is, there is no guarantee they will be able to pay off their loans or ever move forward with their lives, at least financially. College truly is now a nightmare in America and at least in Austria with national service, it is not this way. There is one basic human right that we don't have realistically in America these days - it's gone now - the right to be educated and not have it backfire on you due to excessive costs. Never has this right been on paper, I get that, but for the generation I'm in (X), this did exist at least as far as costs vs. benefits of education go. Not anymore. I'm all for anything that makes further education less of a potential nightmare for our young.
My point here is that my reasons are very practical that I'm for national service - I'm guessing that many young that are struggling with nightmare college debts as we speak wish there had been a national service/free education option instead of the nightmare they now face. Also, with so many young unable to find even basic entry level minimum wage work in the US, at least national service for the young would keep them occupied and hopefully doing something constructive so they have a chance to know what that feels like - here too many people are being denied that by America. So beyond your points, there are other levels of this and other ways of looking at it, too. Though like anything else, I wouldn't be surprised if there was something of a dark side to it, too. At the moment the way we do things concerning our young in the US seems much darker to me, though. Rob
Can't you still do the ROTC deal to pay for college?
Can't you still do the ROTC deal to pay for college?
And you can also presently voluntarily join our military services, and gain access to all sorts of educational benefits: GI Bill, College Fund, SOC, Tuition Support, ...
Or you can voluntarily choose to go to one of our nation's fine service academies - my own daughter near the end of her selection process this year was deciding between Annapolis, Princeton, Cambridge, and St. Andrews.
ApatheticNoMore
6-11-14, 3:11pm
It's pretty tragic when people join the military as is IF it is because they have no other economic opportunities (if they join it purely because they want to even when they have other economic opportunities hmm oh well). But no, compounding the problem by funnelling more people into the military via mandatory national service doesn't help (and even if it was optional, if ONE additional person joins the military due to that, that wouldn't have otherwise, then their PTSD, their guilt, thier nightmares, their chemical posioning (gulf war symdrome and the like), their limb loss and physical and mental degeneration on anyone's hands who advocates it). You don't take already messed up situations (some people may have no other economic options but the military) and solve them by doubling down.
It's pretty tragic when people join the military as is IF it is because they have no other economic opportunities (if they join it purely because they want to even when they have other economic opportunities hmm oh well). But no, compounding the problem by funnelling more people into the military via mandatory national service doesn't help (and even if it was optional, if ONE additional person joins the military due to that, that wouldn't have otherwise, then their PTSD, their guilt, thier nightmares, their chemical posioning (gulf war symdrome and the like), their limb loss and physical and mental degeneration on anyone's hands who advocates it). You don't take already messed up situations (some people may have no other economic options but the military) and solve them by doubling down.Of the millions upon millions of people who have joined the military over the years, only a small percentage have had any of the experiences you are mentioning. Many have found it a rewarding and useful experience to their lives.
...Many have found it a rewarding and useful experience to their lives.Including me!
flowerseverywhere
6-11-14, 9:26pm
Sometimes people make the best of what happens to them. Once I worked with two young men who were Vietnam draftees. Both black men from small southern towns. They each stayed in longer than was necessary, and said it was such a big experience for them that brought them out of small poor town mentality.
On the other hand, one of my Vietnam draftee friends told of how he lost buddies, and he said what people did not understand was you had no choice. You did what you were told and he was not going to leave the country as a draft dodger. After his 13 month tour he came through LA. They were told to wear civilian clothes and not to tell anyone they were returning soldiers as they were being treated very poorly. A very sad time in our history.
But of course many of our friends are ex military, and many had long rewarding careers.
But out back to the original topic, I do see this country as being in flux right now. Who would have thought Cantor would lose the primary? He was for a path to citizenship. And he is out.
As as far as guns go I live in Florida. You can get a concealed carry permit Ina few days. Is know lots of people who have lots of guns. But you know what? I'm not afraid. Could I be unlucky and be in the line of fire? Yes. Is it likely? No. I think I am in far more danger with all these old people on the road with me who can't see, can't hear and have poor reflexes. I can't imagine what it will be like if Marijuana is ever legalized here. It might never be safe to drive on a road again!
No. I think I am in far more danger with all these old people on the road with me who can't see, can't hear and have poor reflexes. I can't imagine what it will be like if Marijuana is ever legalized here. It might never be safe to drive on a road again!
Ha Ha! I just watch an old "South Park" episode where younger people where running thru the streets shouting for everyone to get off the roads now, run for their lives, lock themselves inside and don't come out, etc... because the Senior Citizen Center meeting was letting out and all the oldsters where going to be driving to Kountry Kitchen Buffet for the Sundowner Special :-)! http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s07e10-grey-dawn
As to the OP and Cathy's question of some seeming not to care and just accepting violence. I don't think it's that at all. But I do think most people haven't been touched directly by violence (most around here is gang on gang related or because of drugs) and are therefor less likely to be motivated to actually get out there and do something about it. many people who HAVE been directly effected become ardent activists for change. Things like MADD started because someone lost a child to a drunk driver. Amber Alerts started because someone lost a child to a sexual predator. Etc... So I think that's one route (activism in her community) Cathy A can go as it can and does make a difference. Supporting politicians and laws that espouse the things people believe will reduce crime. Not really sure there is much else that can be done otherwise. I personally don't want to live in a police state and don't see the need. I think that restricting personal freedoms is not the way to solve the crime or violence problem so would actively oppose such changes. But everyone needs to support (and get involved in) what they believe in. that's the route I would choose to try to make a change.
Of the millions upon millions of people who have joined the military over the years, only a small percentage have had any of the experiences you are mentioning. Many have found it a rewarding and useful experience to their lives.
If you manage to avoid combat. And in these days of perpetual war, that's a big If.
If you manage to avoid combat. And in these days of perpetual war, that's a big If.Maybe but there have been lots of combat vets who, while hating combat, still enjoyed their military service despite that and have suffered no ill effects - physical or mental - from their combat duty. There are millions upon millions of vets out there - many combat vets who have served in an active combat role or in combat zones as support personnel - who have had very positive experiences.
Hi. I just wanted to say that I read your post and you do bring up some interesting points. And you are right, I don't read the future and can't know what the future is going to look like. I am also against forced military service - if you read my posts here I mention I'm willing to go along with non-military mandatory national service - I don't know if all countries with mandatory national service offer this but Austria does.
That all said, one big reason I am all for national service is that one of the perks is free education afterwards. I see you are in the Czech Republic? I don't know how education works there but here most young people have to take out large loans for college and graduate with crippling debt and with the job market the way it is, there is no guarantee they will be able to pay off their loans or ever move forward with their lives, at least financially. College truly is now a nightmare in America and at least in Austria with national service, it is not this way. There is one basic human right that we don't have realistically in America these days - it's gone now - the right to be educated and not have it backfire on you due to excessive costs. Never has this right been on paper, I get that, but for the generation I'm in (X), this did exist at least as far as costs vs. benefits of education go. Not anymore. I'm all for anything that makes further education less of a potential nightmare for our young.
My point here is that my reasons are very practical that I'm for national service - I'm guessing that many young that are struggling with nightmare college debts as we speak wish there had been a national service/free education option instead of the nightmare they now face. Also, with so many young unable to find even basic entry level minimum wage work in the US, at least national service for the young would keep them occupied and hopefully doing something constructive so they have a chance to know what that feels like - here too many people are being denied that by America. So beyond your points, there are other levels of this and other ways of looking at it, too. Though like anything else, I wouldn't be surprised if there was something of a dark side to it, too. At the moment the way we do things concerning our young in the US seems much darker to me, though. Rob
There used to be mandatory military service here but then they introduced an alternative giving young men the option to either
serve in the army (for 12 months) or apply for 'civil' service (I think the application stated that they refuse military service for conscience or religious purposes). The non-military service was for 18 months and created need for a lot of jobs for often totally uninterested, disgusted and unproductive people who were assigned to 'work' in public sector or for non-profit organizations. I don't think a lousy janitor in school or rude receptionist in nursing home not to mention unreliable hospital attendant is a good way to make people to 'pay the state back' for education or any other thing that we get from the state. I don't believe it was good for anyone - the society in general, those young people, their families , ...
It was not working well and only lasted for several years. There is no mandatory military or public service here now.
Like in so many countries in Europe (I think the states here tend to be more 'social states' than US are) the national (public) universities are free here, private universities of course are not.
Public universities are paid from our taxes and as a tax payer I don't really feel like another part of what I pay in taxes should be spent on maintaining national service institution and paying allowance to all of it's participants when the value they create and bring is way too low compared to the costs (not only financial but social, emotional ...)
ApatheticNoMore
6-12-14, 11:25am
Public universities are paid from our taxes and as a tax payer I don't really feel like another part of what I pay in taxes should be spent on maintaining national service institution and paying allowance to all of it's participants when the value they create and bring is way too low compared to the costs (not only financial but social, emotional ...)
you speak too much sense. In this country we just run one nutty idea up the flagpole after another to see what works :). Really though I don't think the mandatory national service thing is actually going anywhere despite having some oligarchs trying to push it (a few major rich people foundations did fund a few pushes).
Including me!
Not me, but I did not volunteer. The draft caught me.
Maybe it's just my female genes, but I just can't imagine being sent to war. Especially one that doesn't make any sense to me. I would fight for something I really believed in...............but it would still be hard.
Not me, but I did not volunteer. The draft caught me.
I was part of the last draft lottery held and my number (by birthdate) was 107. They called up everyone from 1 to 95. I volunteered the following year, just prior to the last of those draftees reporting for duty.
For me, it was a life altering experience, one that molded me to be the person I am today. If I had the opportunity to go back and make different choices, I wouldn't change a thing.
Of the millions upon millions of people who have joined the military over the years, only a small percentage have had any of the experiences you are mentioning. Many have found it a rewarding and useful experience to their lives.
And my husband.
and mine. He was subject to the draft due to a low number so he enlisted. As a result, he got into a school, data processing, that led to his lifelong career. Of course it took positive steps from him to keep out of infantry, artillery or armor but a school was an alternative. He did not stay in although they offered a $10,000 reenlistment bonus (three cars worh) but his next step was the Officer Training School.
I was part of the last draft lottery held and my number (by birthdate) was 107. They called up everyone from 1 to 95. I volunteered the following year, just prior to the last of those draftees reporting for duty.
For me, it was a life altering experience, one that molded me to be the person I am today. If I had the opportunity to go back and make different choices, I wouldn't change a thing.Ditto for me too.
I saw so many positive changes in young people who have been in the armed forces, even those who have spent a lot of time in combat zones. And that goes for women too Cathy A - lots of them want combat duty despite their genetics and...er...extra assets :-)! and have fought for it forever. SIL, a career Marine, spend many many tours in both Gulf wars on the front lines and loved it. The opportunities and challenges it can offer can be huge - especially as a female when I went in. Got to do some amazing things I never could do in a civilian job. Plus a lot of maturing and appreciation for things that we have and are able to do. I think each person's experience is going to be different but it can set many young people on a very positive and enriching path for life. Of course it's not for everyone (even Bergdahl washed out of the CG before enlisting in the Army I read - and that didn't obviously didn't suit him either) and why I dislike drafts. It should be all volunteer.
It should be all volunteer.
I currently serve in a paramilitary organization, the fire service, which frequently operates in conditions hazardous to life. I must trust those on my team with my life, and they must trust me with theirs. I would not wish to do this work alongside conscripts.
I currently serve in a paramilitary organization, the fire service, which frequently operates in conditions hazardous to life. I must trust those on my team with my life, and they must trust me with theirs. I would not wish to do this work alongside conscripts.
Excellent point! When I enlisted, I was required to swear an oath, which I did voluntarily. It was a matter of honor and integrity.
"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
I don't believe a conscript can be held to an oath forced upon them against their will and would not want to depend upon one doing so.
I currently serve in a paramilitary organization, the fire service, which frequently operates in conditions hazardous to life. I must trust those on my team with my life, and they must trust me with theirs. I would not wish to do this work alongside conscripts.
A lot of draftees died in the rice paddies of Vietnam. I was almost a Marine. They were drafting Marines in 1965. A Marine Sargent came in and gave a pep talk on how great it is to be a Marine. There was a 100 of us draftees lined up not one stepped forward to become a Marine. Every other person in line became a Marine.
gimmethesimplelife
6-13-14, 9:09pm
Something that scares me along the lines of what the OP posted? Here in Phoenix we have had a Catholic priest killed this week inside a Catholic church downtown and another shot and in critical last I heard. This is the kind of thing that just makes me shake my head and wonder what the world is coming to. And what is really hard is how so many people in this society expect you to be positive at least most of the time - hard to pull that off on the surface when right under the surface there is so much rot. I have always had problems maintaining a positive attitude when so much of modern life seems insane but I've had to do it and so I have. Not easy, though. Rob
A lot of draftees died in the rice paddies of Vietnam. I was almost a Marine. They were drafting Marines in 1965. A Marine Sargent came in and gave a pep talk on how great it is to be a Marine. There was a 100 of us draftees lined up not one stepped forward to become a Marine. Every other person in line became a Marine.If no one said it to you when you cam e back from Nam I'll say it - Thank you for your service! I know you weren't there by choice and probably wonder what the hell it was all for anyways, but I live in a Vietnamese Refugee community and they are eternally grateful for your service even if the country became communist anyways.
I do think that, like Cathy A said she would, many people would gladly take up arms and join the military to protect their homeland. So I don't think it's dislike of military service or even combat to preserve and keep their own country and family safe (well they'd hate and abhor it but you know what I mean) but it's these seemingly meanless and endless wars in far off countries that the US gets into - and for often really terrible reasons. I think that's why people in countries that have mandated military service are less opposed to that compared to Americans. Those countries rarely if ever go outside their own borders to fight other people's wars, they just want a trained and ready military reserve to call upon to defend their borders if needed. I think many more americans would be OK with doing mandated military service (or even the draft) if that was the case.
Something that scares me along the lines of what the OP posted? Here in Phoenix we have had a Catholic priest killed this week inside a Catholic church downtown and another shot and in critical last I heard. This is the kind of thing that just makes me shake my head and wonder what the world is coming to. And what is really hard is how so many people in this society expect you to be positive at least most of the time - hard to pull that off on the surface when right under the surface there is so much rot. I have always had problems maintaining a positive attitude when so much of modern life seems insane but I've had to do it and so I have. Not easy, though. Rob
we often have drug addicts rob churches - especially Catholic ones as they seem to have more valuable stuff. Some time the Priests get beat, some have been shot, but it's rare compared to the amount of robberies. Churches use to leave one door unlocked all the time for people to enter, but not now, too dangerous if they are located in areas with lots of drug addicts.
He who does not work, neither shall he eat.
2 Thes 3:10
i think in principal, this would go a long way in helping with many of the problems this country is facing today.Let one of these thugs put in a 10 hr shift with me at work. He'll be to tired to go rob a gas station after our shift.
He who does not work, neither shall he eat.
2 Thes 3:10
i think in principal, this would go a long way in helping with many of the problems this country is facing today.Let one of these thugs put in a 10 hr shift with me at work. He'll be to tired to go rob a gas station after our shift.That's probably why they get into robbery in the first place - easier then work (Hey Apathetic No More, there's a new line of work for you - more time off too :-)!).
But seriously, many criminals have become accustomed to a big bucks return for their criminal activity so working a job for a comparatively small amount of money is one reason they stay criminals. Add drug addictions, criminal records, lack of education, lack of job opportunities due to many factors, etc... and you have all kind of reasons a person would rather turn to criminal activity.
gimmethesimplelife
6-16-14, 10:23am
That's probably why they get into robbery in the first place - easier then work (Hey Apathetic No More, there's a new line of work for you - more time off too :-)!).
But seriously, many criminals have become accustomed to a big bucks return for their criminal activity so working a job for a comparatively small amount of money is one reason they stay criminals. Add drug addictions, criminal records, lack of education, lack of job opportunities due to many factors, etc... and you have all kind of reasons a person would rather turn to criminal activity.Along the lines of what you have posted here, Spartana, is something that I have found out recently from someone I know that has a few stupid misdemeanors when they were young - over 25 years ago now - they can't find work almost anywhere it seems as everyone background checks these days and having any kind of small and stupid record - such as for public intoxication or for bouncing a check or for something else that is really not all that big a deal - no one will hire this person. I could see this if we were talking of murder or armed robbery or theft or breaking and entering or molestation or kidnapping - see the difference? But for small stupid mistakes, to bar someone from the workplace like this - I know this will never happen, I get this, but in my mind they should have the right to start over in another country with the US paying their way out and giving them some start up money. Want to destroy someone's life for something small and stupid, fine. Just pay and let such people move on to the next country. Seems very sane and rational to me. And I really did not know this was going on but apparently it is - barring people with one small blemish on their record - or in the case of my friend, more than one - from the workplace. Crazy. Rob
....And I really did not know this was going on but apparently it is - barring people with one small blemish on their record - or in the case of my friend, more than one - from the workplace. Crazy. Rob
I wouldn't consider that "barring people...from the workplace". I'd consider it making a choice between people with blemishes on their record and people without.
gimmethesimplelife
6-16-14, 10:45am
I wouldn't consider that "barring people...from the workplace". I'd consider it making a choice between people with blemishes on their record and people without.I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you then. To me this is in effect barring people from the workplace and leaving them with way fewer options. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
6-16-14, 12:12pm
I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you then. To me this is in effect barring people from the workplace and leaving them with way fewer options.
It's making a choice from the employer perspective, but since there aren't enough jobs to go around (not even speaking of "living wage" jobs but even minimum wage jobs) and there's precious little else in the way of other ways to survive from the employee perspective: it's barring. And from a social perspective it's a means of rather complete social control (and then people wonder why people act like sheep ... baaaah .. well ... and I don't think they should act like sheep, it's not excuses, it's an attempt at understanding)
Noone is going to see this at all if they think only about hardened criminals, hmm I guess *some* people might argue they deserve a second chance but who really wants to hire a pedophile afterall, and who wants to hire the employee who stole from the last company to be anywhere near money?
But 1) some crimes are minor 2) whether or not one favors legalization (of everything), some crimes are not properly crimes at all (putting substances into your body for instance) 3) and there's always a risk that any attempt at civic responsibility (protest for instance) may be criminalized. It's like what part of a police state don't you understand? So you think you can have a police state and yet it's ok for employers to depend on the judgements of such an an entity (really many entities but overall lacking respect for civil liberties - militarized local police etc.) in their hiring decision. But in reality that enforces the judgements of such.
gimmethesimplelife
6-16-14, 12:17pm
It's making a choice from the employer perspective, but since there aren't enough jobs to go around (not even speaking of "living wage" jobs but even minimum wage jobs) and there's precious little else in the way of other ways to survive from the employee perspective: it's barring. And from a social perspective it's a means of rather complete social control (and then people wonder why people act like sheep ... baaaah .. well ... and I don't think they should act like sheep, it's not excuses, it's an attempt at understanding)
Noone is going to see this at all if they think only about hardened criminals, hmm I guess *some* people might argue they deserve a second chance but who really wants to hire a pedophile afterall, and who wants to hire the employee who stole from the last company to be anywhere near money?
But 1) some crimes are minor 2) whether or not one favors legalization (of everything), some crimes are not properly crimes at all (putting substances into your body for instance) 3) and there's always a risk that any attempt at civic responsibility (protest for instance) may be criminalized. It's like what part of a police state don't you understand? So you think you can have a police state and yet it's ok for employers to depend on the judgements of such an an entity (really many entities but overall lacking respect for civil liberties - militarized local police etc.) in their hiring decision. But in reality that enforces the judgements of such.I used to think that calling the United States a police state was going a bit far - even considering how I feel about much of the US I really used to think that this was going a bit far - but now that I see what has happened to my friend here I no longer think this is going too far and ANM, I agree with what you have posted above 100%.
This country really is nothing at all like it was told to me it was while I was growing up and while I was a young adult. It's morped into something very scary. Rob
Perhaps we need some sort of affirmative action program for criminals, to help them compete for jobs...
Kumbaya.
gimmethesimplelife
6-16-14, 1:14pm
Perhaps we need some sort of affirmative action program for criminals, to help them compete for jobs...
Kumbaya.Bae, not to be snarky, but I don't find people who have made one or two small misdemeanor mistakes to be criminals......Nope. I'm not about closing off hope and opportunity that quickly without giving a peek under the hood and asking why? In the cases of serious crimes, however, I would be less charitable and definitely if a pattern has emerged I would start thinking much more conservatively towards such a particular person. But one bounced check or one public intoxication does not a criminal make and I embarrassed - yes, truly - to be part of a society where it does. Has America no common sense, no sense of proportion? I've run across people who have maintained these traits but as a society overall? Rob
Rob,
In a situation in which there are fewer jobs than applicants, put yourself in an employer's shoes:
Given two worthy applicants for your position, identical in every way, except that one has a criminal record, which applicant do you pick, and why?
Do you send the applicant without a record packing, and select the applicant who has "made one or two small misdemeanor mistakes" out of some sense of social justice?
ApatheticNoMore
6-16-14, 1:59pm
It about making (or allowing - it could be outlawed - not all criminal screening but basically screaning for minor or victimless crimes) employers to be in effect a branch of law enforcement and adopting all the weaknesses that law enforcement (a particular law enforcement in this actual world we live in) might have. Might said laws be enforced with racial bias? I think there's a good case they are! Well if so then that just flows right through to the job market which just piggybacks on the bias. But our law enforcment is perfectly good and just? Oh sorry I didn't know that. Well in that case ..... given that our law enforcement is always perfectly good and just ... why would anyone complain?
Has America no common sense, no sense of proportion?
Black and white thinking will get you there. All societies need some order, people can't just go around harming other people willy nilly. And so laws that exist against such criminals, that have LONG existed, are used to justify anything that may fall under the realm of "law" and I suspect the equivocation is quite deliberate (so we're always urged to think of the worst case scenario criminal whom nobody much likes). And actually ANYTHING *could* have a law against it (and in a police state dissent as such will be increasingly criminalized, that's what police state means). But I don't think there's such a thing as America (though there is such a thing as the American government of course), and there might be widespread belief systems, things that enforce them, and things that enforce systems of control. :)
gimmethesimplelife
6-16-14, 1:59pm
Rob,
In a situation in which there are fewer jobs than applicants, put yourself in an employer's shoes:
Given two worthy applicants for your position, identical in every way, except that one has a criminal record, which applicant do you pick, and why?
Do you send the applicant without a record packing, and select the applicant who has "made one or two small misdemeanor mistakes" out of some sense of social justice?I would consider them equally and find some reason that one stands out on top of the other and not use a small stupid mistake to discriminate. Unfortunately, corporate America does not think this way. I can only begin to imagine how enraging this must be to individuals that have made a small stupid mistake in their past and how America forces some of these people to genuinely become criminals in order to survive. I don't know how I can ever forgive America for this one, either, now that I understand that it is happening and it is real. Rob
Perhaps a just society would set aside some positions for ex-cons as they are now doing with returning veterans.
gimmethesimplelife
6-16-14, 2:04pm
It about making (or allowing - it could be outlawed - not all criminal screening but basically screaning for minor or victimless crimes) employers to be in effect a branch of law enforcement and adopting all the weaknesses that law enforcement (a particular law enforcement in this actual world we live in) might have. Might said laws be enforced with racial bias? I think there's a good case they are! Well if so then that just flows right through to the job market which just piggybacks on the bias. But our law enforcment is perfectly good and just? Oh sorry I didn't know that. Well in that case ..... given that our law enforcement is always perfectly good and just ... why would anyone complain?
Black and white thinking will get you there. All societies need some order, people can't just go around harming other people willy nilly. And so laws that exist against such criminals, that have LONG existed, are used to justify anything that may fall under the realm of "law" and I suspect the equivocation is quite deliberate. And actually ANYTHING *could* have a law against it (and in a police state dissent as such will be increasingly criminalized, that's what police state means). But I don't think there's such a thing as America (though there is such a thing as the American government of course), and there might be widespread belief systems, things that enforce them, and things that enforce systems of control. :)Maybe this is my problem with so much of US society - I don't do black and white thinking very well. There is so much grey to everything for me and as I get older it is only more so that way. But I do see the effects of black and white thinking around me - such as people suspended from schools for truly stupid reasons under zero tolerance policies - why can't we as a people have zero tolerance against excessive zero tolerance policies? Something along the lines of a five year old girl being arrested for kissing a five year old boy? This is sexual harassment? Hello? Earth calling to see if this society has any common sense or sense of proportion? Hello? Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-16-14, 2:06pm
Perhaps a just society would set aside some positions for ex-cons as they are now doing with returning veterans.I think this is a good idea - obviously not handling cash, dealing with children, some kind of safeguards built in. But I totally support this idea. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
6-16-14, 2:09pm
I'm not sure we can expect employers to be saints. So maybe the question to be asked is how much of this stuff, in a just society (you don't have to convince me we don't live in one), should be even legally allowed for job screening? Some criminal background checks yes, of anything though, victimless crimes, misdemeanors etc.?
gimmethesimplelife
6-16-14, 2:16pm
I'm not sure we can expect employers to be saints. So maybe the question to be asked is how much of this stuff, in a just society (you don't have to convince me we don't live in one), should be even legally allowed for job screening? Some criminal background checks yes, of anything though, victimless crimes, misdemeanors etc.?I agree with you here, too, ANM. I'm OK with serious crimes leading to discrimination.....by serious I'm talking of murder, rape, kidnapping, breaking and entering, molestation - just the crimes that make one flinch and cringe. I am of the opinion that small mistakes - unless they become a pattern - should be irrelevant and not enter the hiring decision. Especially as more and more of daily life seems to be illegal every year. It's gotten to the point where I have heard of some people refusing to be questioned by the police as witnesses as they are terrified of being hauled off for breaking some law they didn't even knew existed. I used to think that was excessive, too, but not anymore. I personally would just as soon not speak to the police at this point now too out of this same fear. Crazy, absolutely crazy that society has sunk to this. Rob
I would consider them equally and find some reason that one stands out on top of the other and not use a small stupid mistake to discriminate. Unfortunately, corporate America does not think this way.
But what if you knew that you, as the employer, could be held liable for the future actions of your employee, especially if you had fore knowledge of the employee's history. If you were prudent, you'd limit that liability by favoring an applicant without the excess baggage. That's not discrimination, that's discernment.
gimmethesimplelife
6-16-14, 2:44pm
But what if you knew that you, as the employer, could be held liable for the future actions of your employee, especially if you had fore knowledge of the employee's history. If you were prudent, you'd limit that liability by favoring an applicant without the excess baggage. That's not discrimination, that's discernment.I'm not entirely disagreeing with your logic here, Alan, and I do believe for serious crimes you are dead on in what you have posted here. The problem is there is another class of people who have committed what amounts to stupid small mistakes who are being shut out of the job market, too. For me, like with so much else in America, it boils down to people over profits. Your post strikes me as being more profits over people - and I'm not totally against that, either, as I said in the case of serious crimes. For small stupid mistakes, without a pattern of continuance established, I vote for people over profit. This one I doubt I'll ever budge on - I believe in basic human dignity too much to budge on this one. (once again, if there is a pattern established OR we're talking of serious crimes I do agree with your post - but not until then.) Rob
Also, to raise a point that Apathetic No More has brought up - is this what we want as a society, this kind of zero tolerance, this kind of no chance to make a small mistake and learn from it? This kind of black and white thinking? I certainly don't want it nor did I ever approve of it or sign up for it. Rob
So, Rob, start your own business and run it according to your own principles of justice. Nothing stopping you.
So, Rob, start your own business and run it according to your own principles of justice. Nothing stopping you.
Actually there's plenty stopping you if you have a record. In most states you can't have a professional license, you can't cut hair, drive a taxi, be a notary or even have a hot dog stand. Check out Matt Taibbi's new book "The Divide" about our new stop and frisk America.
http://www.amazon.com/Divide-American-Injustice-Age-Wealth/dp/081299342X/ref=sr_1_1_ha?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1402944646&sr=1-1&keywords=the+divide+matt+taibbi
gimmethesimplelife
6-16-14, 2:54pm
So, Rob, start your own business and run it according to your own principles of justice. Nothing stopping you.Bae, you have a point. I do have this option as do we all. The only problem is that not all are cut out to run a business and given that I am talking of people who really have committed slap on the hand kind of offences - is this the society we want? Cutting off access to the job market due to the most minor of offences? Seriously? Pretty scary stuff. Good thing I don't have children as a caring parent I'd want them out of the US for so many reasons.....one large reason among the many being this kind of black and white thinking.
To tie back into the OP, this is something that very much scares me about America and what it has become - the prevalence of this kind of black and white thinking. I'm not down with it at all. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-16-14, 2:56pm
Actually there's plenty stopping you if you have a record. In most states you can't have a professional license, you can't cut hair, drive a taxi, be a notary or even have a hot dog stand. Check out Matt Taibbi's new book "The Divide" about our new stop and frisk America.
http://www.amazon.com/Divide-American-Injustice-Age-Wealth/dp/081299342X/ref=sr_1_1_ha?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1402944646&sr=1-1&keywords=the+divide+matt+taibbiLainey, thanks for posting this. I will do some research - not that I doubt you - as I didn't know this. I thought for licenses applicants were screened for serious crimes only. I'll post after I look into this some.......Rob
Actually there's plenty stopping you if you have a record.
I was unaware Rob has a record. If you read my sentence, you will see I am addressing *him*, encouraging *him* to operate a business according to his personal theories of economic and social justice.
ApatheticNoMore
6-16-14, 3:04pm
The problem is that screening criteria that may make sense as a congnitive short cut in decision making can be profoundly unjust on the individual level. Even racial or gender screening *might* make sense as a congnitive shortcut (let's say a certain gender was more likely to say I don't know, get pregnant and quit? And this was not just your faulty induction but was even backed by reams of data - for the sake of argument let's say). But racial and gender screening is illegal. Why? Because it's profoundly unjust to the individuals concerned (who may have none of those traits) even IF it makes sense as a cognitive shortcut (yea it often doesn't even make sense as a cognitive shortcut but just for the sake of argument ok).
But commiting a criminal act contains more choice than being born of a certain race or gender? Well obviously. But what was criminalized may not even be wrong. And even if it is, the punishment of lifetime difficulty of finding a job may be a punishment out of all proportion to the magnitude of the crime. So just because it can be a useful cognitive shortcut to avoid someone with that record it doesn't make it just. And that's not even the means of social control aspect - which is a SECOND punishment (after the initial criminal sentence whatever it is) for WHATEVER laws happen to be on the books (however just or unjust the laws are) by whatever enforcers (however unfair or biased any given law enforcment may be) with employment sanctions.
gimmethesimplelife
6-16-14, 3:04pm
I was unaware Rob has a record. If you read my sentence, you will see I am addressing *him*, encouraging *him* to operate a business according to his personal theories of economic and social justice.I don't. I'm just really disgusted how those that do get treated apparently when they are looking for work. Definitely what nothing I was taught about America in school is true and I'm seeing more and more of this kind of black and white thinking every year. To me this is scary stuff, and given that I live in the center of a major urban area I'm likely to run across it more than you, Bae, given that you are in a more isolated rural area. It stands to reason, anyway. Rob
To tie back into the OP, this is something that very much scares me about America and what it has become - the prevalence of this kind of black and white thinking. I'm not down with it at all. Rob
Black and white thinking???
Seems to me there is plenty of nuance in the system, yet you paint it as "cutting off access to the job market due to the most minor of offences", an absolutist claim which clearly isn't supported by fact, and springboard into condemning the entire country.
I was unaware Rob has a record. If you read my sentence, you will see I am addressing *him*, encouraging *him* to operate a business according to his personal theories of economic and social justice.
Yes, I should have clarified that I was speaking to the just "start your own business" part of the sentence.
... given that I live in the center of a major urban area I'm likely to run across it more than you, Bae, given that you are in a more isolated rural area. It stands to reason, anyway. Rob
Reasoning requires valid premises. So you might want some data...
For instance, my county has a lot more people than jobs, pretty much the lowest earned income in the state, has a high influx of incomers from the mainland trying to make their way here, and has a pretty informed community. A brief musing on games theory and the iterated prisoner's dilemma problem might tell you how those who have misbehaved or who have not proven themselves are treated by employers here.
The problem is there is another class of people who have committed what amounts to stupid small mistakes who are being shut out of the job market, too. For me, like with so much else in America, it boils down to people over profits. Your post strikes me as being more profits over people ...
I wouldn't call it profits over people, I'd call it prudence over imprudence. Employers haven't shut offenders out of the job market, offenders have limited their ability to participate in the market.
Should a person convicted of drunken driving expect to be employed as a school bus driver? Should a thief expect to be employed in retail? Should a drug abuser expect to be employed in any environment where safety is an issue? Should a person with a history of disorderly conduct expect to be welcomed into a close office environment?
ApatheticNoMore
6-16-14, 3:12pm
Actually there's plenty stopping you if you have a record. In most states you can't have a professional license, you can't cut hair, drive a taxi, be a notary or even have a hot dog stand. Check out Matt Taibbi's new book "The Divide" about our new stop and frisk America.
also of course *sometimes* the path to self-employment (if one wishes such a thing) runs though first working for others ... (the independent contractor path usually does - a very difficult path from what I've seen, so not necessarily the first I'd choose if I wanted to be self-employed but ...)
Lainey, thanks for posting this. I will do some research - not that I doubt you - as I didn't know this. I thought for licenses applicants were screened for serious crimes only. I'll post after I look into this some.......Rob
Yep - you should see the things that are classified as felonies these days.
And related to that, NPR had a program on the fees and fines situation. Most states now have criminals paying monthly fees for their parole or probation on top of the original court fees, and fines and penalties slapped on top of that if you miss one. If you lose your job and can't pay, you're dragged back into court and thrown into jail, again. One woman who was sober for several years and had a minimum wage job lived in terror of losing her job mainly because she owed $10,000+ in fees and penalties and was afraid a single missed payment would send her back to prison.
Should a person convicted of drunken driving expect to be employed as a school bus driver? Should a thief expect to be employed in retail? Should a drug abuser expect to be employed in any environment where safety is an issue? Should a person with a history of disorderly conduct expect to be welcomed into a close office environment?
In our fire/ems/rescue department, they do extensive background checks before hiring. Anything sketchy, no joy for the applicant.
Of course, we have to drive huge trucks on the public roads, we wander around inside peoples' homes, we have access to controlled substances, etc etc., - it's a Caesar's wife situation. And also, the commissioners of the district don't want to absorb the liability.
So it circles back to large numbers of adults who are unable to even become legitimately self-employed - now what happens to them? Can they own a landscaping business? Can they own a window-washing company? Do they wander the streets and beg?
It's become a serious problem.
As I get older, I have been trying to understand the logic behind the decisions we make both individually and as a culture. Right now, I am reading a book called Practical Wisdom. If I am understanding correctly, the author believes that all of our rules are undermining our success(es). If we can look at a situation with less rigid frames of reference, ie wisdom or open-mindedness and with empathy, then the outcomes might be better. We have created so many laws, rules and assumptions about every situation and they are narrowing our vision. So in Rob's query about criminal offenders, not allowing some give, may not be the wisest decision. There is a good possibility the offender may become a more honorable person when entrusted to do a good job. Of course, he may not, but assuming that he/she is always a risk might be detrimental in the long run. I have much more to study on this making choices stuff but I find it interesting.
I would consider them equally and find some reason that one stands out on top of the other and not use a small stupid mistake to discriminate. Unfortunately, corporate America does not think this way. I can only begin to imagine how enraging this must be to individuals that have made a small stupid mistake in their past and how America forces some of these people to genuinely become criminals in order to survive. I don't know how I can ever forgive America for this one, either, now that I understand that it is happening and it is real. RobThe problem with this is that often by the time someone actually has a criminal record, he or she may have had many, many other offenses they have been charged with but that did not make it through the Criminal Justice system to a conviction. Many people who have first offenses (and often second and third ones) are diverted from the CJ system and go into a Diversion program. This is especially true for more minor, non-violent offenses such as drug and alcohol where people are most likely to be sent to a re-hab program, or given community service, probation, etc... Crimes are also pled down to lessor offenses (misdemeanors) and things like juvenile records have been expunged. So when an employer actually sees that a person has been charged for what appears to be a "small mistake or offense" that person may have had many other run-ins with the law at an earlier time that were diverted from the system, and that last "small offense" became one-too-many offenses so that it was not given any further leniency by the CJ system.
Sounds like a good book, pinkytoe, I'll check it out.
Here in Phoenix we have had a Catholic priest killed this week inside a Catholic church downtown and another shot and in critical last I heard.
Apparently by an ex-con.
Even Texas has figured it out:
http://www.ktrh.com/articles/houston-news-121300/feds-turn-to-texas-to-reduce-11894256/
Even Texas has figured it out:
http://www.ktrh.com/articles/houston-news-121300/feds-turn-to-texas-to-reduce-11894256/
Ya gotta love red states. ;)
gimmethesimplelife
6-17-14, 10:56pm
Ya gotta love red states. ;)I have a love/hate relationship with Texas. I love absolutely LOVE Austin, especially South Austin. The rest of the state? Mmmmmm.....not so much. Don't want to offend anyone here, this is just my take on Texas. I do respect it for it's alive economy and I also respect it for the actions being taken in the article above. I'm even surprised Texas would take such a stance, more power to it for this. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-20-14, 7:08pm
Yep - you should see the things that are classified as felonies these days.
And related to that, NPR had a program on the fees and fines situation. Most states now have criminals paying monthly fees for their parole or probation on top of the original court fees, and fines and penalties slapped on top of that if you miss one. If you lose your job and can't pay, you're dragged back into court and thrown into jail, again. One woman who was sober for several years and had a minimum wage job lived in terror of losing her job mainly because she owed $10,000+ in fees and penalties and was afraid a single missed payment would send her back to prison.I did do some research and it's scary...make one false move, do one stupid small thing and indeed you can find yourself permanently locked out of the job market. Very scary. I sure didn't sign up for what this country has become.....whatever happened to second chances and rehabilitation? Yet another reason to fear America. Rob
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