What makes wrong-dooers snap?

[razz]

Recently, a young man who had all the benefits of a supportive home, environment and upbringing triggered a situation where he targeted three RCMP killing them. Macleans, our national weekly magazine, asks "What made him snap?"

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/one-question-in-the-wake-of-moncton-massacre-why/

This is the Public Policy forum and I am wondering... why do we persist in seeing the wrongdoer as a victim?
What as I missing here? There is no public policy that can change, IMHO, what happened except start making people accountable for their poor choices that harm others.
Thoughts?

[sweetana3]

People hope that if they could figure out what happened, maybe they could stop other situations from happening.

However, I agree with you that many cannot understand that there are pure sociopaths in our society. Empathy and compassion are part of our brain and some are missing the ability to have any. Take a look at fetal alcohol syndrom taken to the extreme and often the person cannot even understand consequences. Our brains are very complex.

[early morning]

I think examining and questioning and trying to find "reasons" seem like pretty natural reactions to such an awful crime. And like sweetana3 says, some people are simply sociopaths with no apparent cause for being such. But while ALL people who commit horrendous crimes need to be removed from society, some are truly damaged individuals, often due to things that were/are beyond their control. FAS and in utero drug addiction are major problems and the ways they alter brain chemistry in a growing fetus are still being explored. As a society, what do we do to/with such people? I don't think that sort of brain damage can be "cured", anymore than a true sociopath can be.

Honestly, razz, it seems clear to me that sometimes the wrongdoer IS a victim. That does not excuse his/her actions, and maybe it's better to NOT see them in that light, because it sure makes sentencing an easier matter for our national social conscience. I work with delinquent kids and this is something our whole court struggles with. There are no easy answers to any of your - or our, for that matter - questions.

[iris lilies]

I was thinking, after reading your post, that I don't know of anyone who "just snapped." But then I remembered that someone who was in my elementary school classes "snapped" a few years ago and killed both of his parents, stuffing them down the well. That's pretty horrific.

But I actually DO see him as a victim. This guy was borderline retarded, he was made fun of all of his life. I remember incidents in elementary school and also high school that were constant taunting by either the cranky old teacher we had, or kids in class. But I also remember incidents where the boys in high school were kind to him. By then, I suppose we had figured about that Russell just was not all there. And recently, when I read the newspaper account of how he lived with his parents and how they treated him, it brought back all of the things that our 4th grade teacher used to rag on him about. There was something wrong with this guy at birth, both mentally and physically but I do not mean that he was a sociopath. I mean that adults expected him to behave as children and adults normally behave, and he could not. He was damaged from birth and his family was poor and resrouces to help no available, although back in those days there wasn't much. I do remember his siblings managed to make it out of there.

Even in court he behaved as he had behaved in 4th grade, clowning around in a stupid way, kind of like my silly dog. That's how he used to get positive attention, acting the fool.

This was a tragedy all around. Two people dead, the perp suffering all of his life and wanting to end it.

Of course he needs to be in prison for life, I'm not arguing that, but it's a sad thing all around.

[gimmethesimplelife]

My standard answer to why people snap is due to the lack of economic opportunity and the realization that the system is stacked against most people these days. Like I said, that's my standard answer. I think that it can go much deeper than that though. With both parents out of the house working (though there is less of that these days) and the constant exposure to advertising our young face - and the judgements of the young against each other if they are not wearing the latest cool brand of clothes or shoes or do not own the latest electronic device - and less parental time and supervision due to economic reasons - and less support and less people to talk to and to go to with problems - why wouldn't some percentage of our young snap? Especially being of an age without fully developed coping skills? If we want to cut back on the headlines, we have to invest some TIME with our young and give them some emotional support beyond what they are wearing and how well electronically equipped they are. Just my two cents and an attempt to go beyond my standard answer on this one. Rob

[awakenedsoul]

The article says that he was a pot smoker, and becoming increasingly paranoid. To me, his obsession with the right to bear arms seems very linked to the murders. Power, (and owning a gun is power,) does strange things to people. I don't believe that coming from a Christian family with money means that a person will be docile. Religion can turn into control very easily. Especially if one believes that their religion is superior to the other religions in the world.

The father sounds like he is in denial. My brother died young, and his friends, (like the father in this article,) also described him as a "gentle soul". In my opinion, he was violent, unpredictable, and a ticking time bomb. I knew he was dangerous since I was a child. There are always warning signs. Addiction seems to have a lot to do with it, and family members and friends who defend the abuser. I also think technology and watching images of war and murder excites and programs some people. They fantasize about it, and then they do it.

Also, sometimes what looks like a "supportive home" on the outside is a facade. There's always a back story. Children in the same family turn out very differently. I think a preoccupation with violence is a definite red flag...

[ApatheticNoMore]

Recently, a young man who had all the benefits of a supportive home, environment and upbringing triggered a situation where he targeted three RCMP killing them. Macleans, our national weekly magazine, asks "What made him snap?"

I'm always super super skeptical of these reports that the home really was supportive etc. Oh really, it was, was it? Who says so? The parents? Well of course they do! (who has more motive to say so afterall?) Because I think some of these people CLEARLY did not come from a supportive home. And all the parents fault? Well it's the person who does the deeds fault if they are an adult. And the parents often did the best the could (only they didn't have the ability to really meet the kids needs because it is more than their own knowledge, skills and maturity - which is their responsibility when they were adults raising kids too). And it's incredibly difficult to raise kids in a narrow nuclear family. If the parents can't meet their children needs they are often all the kids have as far as adults to turn to growing up. And social stresses do nothing to help healthy parenting. But no I think it's obvious many of these people really did NOT come from homes that met their needs growing up.

Although sure maybe the influence of certain drugs (i've seen downers make people aggressive for sure), organic brain damage, and so on can account for that without that. The pressures of society? Society is nuts!!! Absolutely fricken nutier than the fruit pie nuts!! Sane people could not produce this society nuts! But the nuttiness is often faced by those with very poor coping skills to begin with etc. - and so either a saner society with more help available or better coping skills to begin with would help.


This is the Public Policy forum and I am wondering... why do we persist in seeing the wrongdoer as a victim?
What as I missing here? There is no public policy that can change, IMHO, what happened except start making people accountable for their poor choices that harm others.

That solution can not change that in many cases either, because many of those who snap commit suicide after (mass killing and then suicide - unfortunately we know the pattern). So what possible making people accountable could change that? Threatening with life imprisonment, with the death penalty, with anything imaginable? Uh but they're dead. I suppose if a person slowly developed into a criminal by committing smaller crimes first maybe, but if the thread title is people who *snap* - and many of the snappers often with no prior criminal records (why they can get weapons completely legally in many cases etc.).

If I try to get in the heads of these crazies and give my take I imagine it is interpreted as they shouldn't be held accountable but um, I think they should be locked up for the safety of society if they were alive after the crime and if police shoot them while they're on a rampage it's completely justifiable (police shoot many people unjustifiable but that situation would not be a case of that). But the little problem is that there's no point in locking up a literal corpse and you can't punish before they commit a crime and not live in a totalitarian state of course.

[awakenedsoul]

razz,
I also think part of it is the change in schools. I stopped teaching children because you are not allowed to discipline anymore. I knew things were getting wild 15 years ago, but had no idea it would get this bad. I can't believe how many people insist their child has some sort of disorder. Teachers who are consistent and have boundaries get fired. Most mothers aren't home anymore, they're at work. The children I taught described me as "strict but not mean." I had consequences for bad behavior. None of the other teachers did.

I also think that being grounded and self disciplined strengthens the character. I'd like to see these kids get off the computer, exercise intensely, study music, art, or something that uses their talent, and do chores. It sounds basic, but it makes a difference in the mind, body, and spirit.

[pinkytoe]

I also wonder how many young people are now routinely put on anti-anxiety meds which apparently can have some unexpected consequences.

[gimmethesimplelife]

razz,
I also think part of it is the change in schools. I stopped teaching children because you are not allowed to discipline anymore. I knew things were getting wild 15 years ago, but had no idea it would get this bad. I can't believe how many people insist their child has some sort of disorder. Teachers who are consistent and have boundaries get fired. Most mothers aren't home anymore, they're at work. The children I taught described me as "strict but not mean." I had consequences for bad behavior. None of the other teachers did.

I also think that being grounded and self disciplined strengthens the character. I'd like to see these kids get off the computer, exercise intensely, study music, art, or something that uses their talent, and do chores. It sounds basic, but it makes a difference in the mind, body, and spirit.I remember in 1979 when I was in eighth grade I was hit so hard in the face by a substitute teacher that I started bleeding - I was acting up in class and this is how she dealt with it and at the time it was acceptable. Today you'd sue so fast it would make everyone's head spin - it's a totally different world in our schools today. I don't care for either world, personally - I still don't care for being hit like that but I also don't care for what public education has sunk to since then, either. I wish there was a different direction for it to go off towards.....Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

I'm always super super skeptical of these reports that the home really was supportive etc. Oh really, it was, was it? Who says so? The parents? Well of course they do! (who has more motive to say so afterall?) Because I think some of these people CLEARLY did not come from a supportive home. And all the parents fault? Well it's the person who does the deeds fault if they are an adult. And the parents often did the best the could (only they didn't have the ability to really meet the kids needs because it is more than their own knowledge, skills and maturity - which is their responsibility when they were adults raising kids too). And it's incredibly difficult to raise kids in a narrow nuclear family. If the parents can't meet their children needs they are often all the kids have as far as adults to turn to growing up. And social stresses do nothing to help healthy parenting. But no I think it's obvious many of these people really did NOT come from homes that met their needs growing up.

Although sure maybe the influence of certain drugs (i've seen downers make people aggressive for sure), organic brain damage, and so on can account for that without that. The pressures of society? Society is nuts!!! Absolutely fricken nutier than the fruit pie nuts!! Sane people could not produce this society nuts! But the nuttiness is often faced by those with very poor coping skills to begin with etc. - and so either a saner society with more help available or better coping skills to begin with would help.



That solution can not change that in many cases either, because many of those who snap commit suicide after (mass killing and then suicide - unfortunately we know the pattern). So what possible making people accountable could change that? Threatening with life imprisonment, with the death penalty, with anything imaginable? Uh but they're dead. I suppose if a person slowly developed into a criminal by committing smaller crimes first maybe, but if the thread title is people who *snap* - and many of the snappers often with no prior criminal records (why they can get weapons completely legally in many cases etc.).

If I try to get in the heads of these crazies and give my take I imagine it is interpreted as they shouldn't be held accountable but um, I think they should be locked up for the safety of society if they were alive after the crime and if police shoot them while they're on a rampage it's completely justifiable (police shoot many people unjustifiable but that situation would not be a case of that). But the little problem is that there's no point in locking up a literal corpse and you can't punish before they commit a crime and not live in a totalitarian state of course.Society is nuts - you got that one right. Rob

[awakenedsoul]

I remember in 1979 when I was in eighth grade I was hit so hard in the face by a substitute teacher that I started bleeding - I was acting up in class and this is how she dealt with it and at the time it was acceptable. Today you'd sue so fast it would make everyone's head spin - it's a totally different world in our schools today. I don't care for either world, personally - I still don't care for being hit like that but I also don't care for what public education has sunk to since then, either. I wish there was a different direction for it to go off towards.....Rob

That's terrible. I just had things like kids refusing to follow the dress code for ballet. I would tell them, "I'd like to use you to demonstrate, but I can't since you're not following the dress code." They would usually slip into the bathroom and change their clothes on their own. They liked the attention. I didn't get mad or yell. I also noticed parents kept pulling their kids out of class to take vacations during school time. The kids were being taught that they didn't have to follow a schedule. I noticed when they got jobs, they expected the employer to work around their schedule. That sort of thing. Power struggles and a stubborn refusal to follow rules. I like structure, order, and consistency. The students told me they felt relaxed in my class, because it was calm and quiet. Things have gotten so chaotic in the homes and schools. It's sad.

[Lainey]

Interesting thread, razz. I remember seeing an interview with the parents of a 1st grader killed at Sandy Hook. They were directing their grief into raising money for a foundation to help answer the very question you asked. Their specific research was going to be focused on violence and brain chemistry.
There was also a brief discussion on how you can identify these anti-social behaviors early on, and maybe, try to fix them.

I thought it was a novel way for grieving parents to pursue some kind of purpose for the tragedy that had happened.

[razz]

Interesting thread, razz. I remember seeing an interview with the parents of a 1st grader killed at Sandy Hook. They were directing their grief into raising money for a foundation to help answer the very question you asked. Their specific research was going to be focused on violence and brain chemistry.
There was also a brief discussion on how you can identify these anti-social behaviors early on, and maybe, try to fix them.

I thought it was a novel way for grieving parents to pursue some kind of purpose for the tragedy that had happened.
Courageous parents to do this.