View Full Version : Anyone here a grad school dropout?
Wasn't sure what section to put this in.
Is anyone here a graduate school dropout? I'm in a low-residency MFA program, a month into it, and I really don't like it.
have been googling around for stories of people who left grad school. Anyone here have a story to share?
I will certainly tell you more about mine if you want to know.
Well....I was headed to grad school in TX from where I worked in TN when I stopped by MO to say "Hi/Bye" to friends and ended up engaged 2 weeks later. So I dropped out before I even got started.
What do you not like about it? The program, the school, the educators, the amount of work? Is there partial reimbursement at this point or just lost money? I would say that if this point you know you don't like it then change it.
It's an awful lot of work, and since I started a month ago, every week (every few days, it seems) I think about quitting. There would be no monetary loss, as I get tuition remission.
I'm not sure what I expected it to be like. Maybe less work than some other graduate program, because I like writing (it's a creative writing program). Every couple of days, there is a 200-500 word post due, usually analysis of some author's or authors' work we have read.
Gardenarian
8-25-14, 4:14pm
I didn't drop out, but I had to take "Incompletes" one semester because of exhaustion. I was working as a cocktail waitress while earning my MLS. It was a lot more work than I expected, too.
Mrs. Hermit
8-25-14, 4:36pm
I am one semester from graduating with a Masters in History--after 4 years of grad school. It is hard to adjust to the new work load, and go through all the schedule juggling required. BUT, you do get used to it. The more you practice, especially writing, the easier it gets. My most recent class required (for a 16 week semester), 1 500 word post weekly, 2-3 250 word posts weekly, 3 6 page essays, two 2 page essays, and a paper at the end that ended up being 42 pages. If I had taken this class at the start of my program, I would have felt entirely overwhelmed. Graduate school is not easy, but it gets to seeming easier.
If the school is not a good fit, try another one. Most schools offer some kind of student counseling, so talking to them might help, too.
Good luck!
Well....I was headed to grad school in TX from where I worked in TN when I stopped by MO to say "Hi/Bye" to friends and ended up engaged 2 weeks later. So I dropped out before I even got started.
What do you not like about it? The program, the school, the educators, the amount of work? Is there partial reimbursement at this point or just lost money? I would say that if this point you know you don't like it then change it.
I had a VERY similar story. I was accepted at NYU Graduate School of Journalism, and that very summer, DH proposed. I was so in a whirlwind of wedding plans I got completely derailed and never went, and I'll be honest, I feel that was a big mistake for me.. because I had a pattern at that point in my life of sabotaging my successes and this was one more thing.
So, I agree with Float On--you have to look at your motives carefully. If it is not what you expect, what are the ramifications for dropping out? Every case is different, but make sure you're making your decisions for the right reasons and not becuase you might be tired, or fearful.
ApatheticNoMore
8-25-14, 8:25pm
I'd ask what were your original reasons for wanting to do grad school? Are they still valid? Do you have other priorities now? That is OKAY .... but if so why are the "other priorities" only now asserting themselves and not before you enrolled? I do think it's valid for some things in life (say getting a raise in salary even though you earn enough to survive on) to say this is worth an additional 10 hours of my week but not an additional 30. But if something is much more dear to one's heart than that example, there might be a lot more reason to do it (and the decision process not so mathematical :)). I'm not sure even tired is a bad reason (being chronically sleep deprived does become a qualify of life issue) but it can sometimes be strategized around (better time management etc.).
iris lilies
8-25-14, 9:11pm
Many decades ago I got a graduate degree in one discipline and went out into the working world. At that time the second degree to have in my field was Public Administration, you know, studying to be a bureaucrat. So living in a state University town as I did with low state tuition, I signed up for 2 classes in PA to take at night. A few weeks in I had weird episodes of falling asleep in class, so I dropped one of those classes. When the other was finished, I breathed a sigh of relief and never, ever, again, took an academic course.I've never looked back.
Since I got into the working world I've always perferred that to school and only have nightmares about school, which is weird because I was a decent student but nothing outstanding.
I got my MBA over a 5 year period taking one class at a time whe working full time, and having kids in the stages of high school and college and getting married. Very busy! By the time I was half done I was so sick of writing papers. I hadn't realized how grad school is mostly writing as compared with undergrad work. Copious amounts of writing.
I still think it's ridiculous ... Why all the writing to the exclusion of other methods of learning and testing?
Anyway I'm glad I finished. One pattern I noticed was that each class had a little different emphasis, so the new focus kept me going long enough to get through each semester. My pay is higher because of it.
But if I had known what was involved ahead of time I would not have started!
To be honest, mostly boredom and a creeping sense of "OMG I am going to be 50 so I'd better do something BIG with my life." I wouldn't say I have other priorities now. I'm not sure my original reasons were valid in the first place. I felt like I wasn't "enough" and I was a Big Fat Nothing. If I got an MFA, I would be cool. The degree itself would be cool.
I have been writing all my life, and did it professionally for more than 10 years. I'm not in a writing position now, and the degree would not really be of much help in finding such a job. I have no intention of teaching. I won't be getting a promotion or anything b/c of the degree. So I'm asking myself, why put myself through this aggravation?
I am doing well in class so far. I was a good student in undergrad as well. I just feel like I'm on an emotional roller coaster every time I have an assignment due. I hated writing papers in undergrad (despite my writing career, I was a nervous wreck!) and there's a lot of analysis of literature re: point of view, dialogue, etc. in this program.
I'd ask what were your original reasons for wanting to do grad school? Are they still valid? Do you have other priorities now? That is OKAY .... but if so why are the "other priorities" only now asserting themselves and not before you enrolled? I do think it's valid for some things in life (say getting a raise in salary even though you earn enough to survive on) to say this is worth an additional 10 hours of my week but not an additional 30. But if something is much more dear to one's heart than that example, there might be a lot more reason to do it (and the decision process not so mathematical :)). I'm not sure even tired is a bad reason (being chronically sleep deprived does become a qualify of life issue) but it can sometimes be strategized around (better time management etc.).
P.S. I am also giving up virtually all of my vacation time for the residencies. I already have to give up a certain amount because of inconsistencies in my shift/work schedule. I do realize that's only temporary, but 2-3 years seems like a long time. Especially when I'm not sure I will ever be the sort of person who sits down to write every day. When I'm forced or "have to" do something, it loses its charm.
awakenedsoul
8-26-14, 4:47pm
I would trust yourself, frugalone. Things feel different at 50 than when you're in your twenties. I can see how it would be difficult for you to go back into a classroom environment after writing professionally.
I submitted some work to a magazine in my thirties and it was published. They put me on staff and gave me a column, feature stories, and cover stories. One of the articles I wrote ended up in the Smithsonian archives. I didn't go to college, but I knew my subject. I love writing, and always have.
I would do what energizes you. It's your life. None of us knows how much time we will have here.
To be honest, mostly boredom and a creeping sense of "OMG I am going to be 50 so I'd better do something BIG with my life." I wouldn't say I have other priorities now. I'm not sure my original reasons were valid in the first place. I felt like I wasn't "enough" and I was a Big Fat Nothing. If I got an MFA, I would be cool. The degree itself would be cool.
Yeah, I think that in this case, your motives sound like they were 'external' factors--trying to be something or prove something to others (or yourself). If you said that you have an insatiable appetite for the subject matter, or the MFA would increase your earning potential 25% or more, or you wake up looking forward to going to class, then I'd say, well, think about sticking with it.
There was a period of time I considered going back to get a Master's degree. EVERYONE in my field has AT LEAST a Master's and in many cases a doctorate, and there I am with my little old bachelor's degree--in Drama Criticism no less. But once I realized that the extra degree would do nothing for my earnings and everything for my ego, I decided to save my money and my time.
If you're really close to the end, and if, on a good day when you're not exhausted you see a reason for just finishing it up, then finish it up. Otherwise, just go with your gut.
goldensmom
8-26-14, 5:00pm
I didn't drop out but thought about it and probably should have. It was a lot of time (full time employed and going to school at night), a lot of work, a lot of money, not required by my profession and after all that it means nothing to me. I have a MBA, so what, I am a housewife by choice and most people I know now don't even know that I went to collage. Incidentally, I was organizing this morning and came across my diplomas which is all I have to show for my past educational endeavors.
Thank you, folks. What I like about the people on this forum: you come from a variety of backgrounds and have different types of lifestyles.
Some more info: catherine mentioned "going to class." Except for the two residencies, the classwork is done online through Desire2Learn. It's like a message board. We post, and then others (including the professors) respond to our posts. I miss the "live" interaction with classmates, the lively debates and humor. It's just not the same.
I work full time, and the program is considered a full time program (even though it is "low residency"). I am nowhere near finished. I'm in my first semester.
I have an insatiable appetite for books and reading, but I don't know if I have the requisite passion to be an author. I enjoy many artistic pursuits: making jewelry, mixed-media art, photography, and writing.
I have learned a couple of things about myself recently: 1) If I hadn't tried this program, I probably would have gone on wondering/thinking about it. Now I know what it is like. 2) I *am* somebody, and I am enough. I also don't have to be Doing Something Big with My Life. It's Ok just to be a regular ol' person.
Wow, I can't believe this. It's what? Two, three weeks later, and I still haven't pulled the plug. I am actually scared to send the email to the director saying "I quit."
Why am I so scared? I feel like I am letting people down. All the people in the writing program, that is. And I never trust my own judgment. I have little self-confidence, even at my age.
EDIT: I keep telling myself it is OK. That at least I tried. What can they do, after all? I expect that they will try and talk me into staying in the program. I understand that writing is a lot of work, it's a lot of heartache, even. I never wanted it to be that way for me, though. I really enjoyed being a features writer at a newspaper. It wasn't like pulling teeth, the way doing these exercises is.
Reviving this thread.
If you've been with me so far...I made it through the first semester, then dropped out right before the second residency. I had had a crummy Xmas (it's a bad time of year for me), lost a beloved pet three days after Xmas, and had procrastinated on my critiques that were due at residency. I panicked and dropped out.
I thought I'd be happier, but I kinda tormented myself during the next semester about whether or not I made the "right decision." Then I thought I'd try again, only I changed my genre from fiction to nonfiction. I wrote every day for about a month, thinking I ,might do a memoir. It's hard to explain, but I kind of let the faculty talk me into going back.
At residency in June, I cried no less than four times. If I'd been able to get my spouse on the phone, I'd have told him to come and pick me up. Instead I stayed. After I got home, I still wasn't sure I wanted to stay in the program. I told my mentor about this, and she suggested I go part time instead of full time. So I decided to do that.
One month into classes, I'm STILL not sure I want to do this.
I feel like an idiot. Other people in the program (and in other programs) keep saying it's "fun" and they love it. I'm not lovin' it and it's not fun. I don't like critiquing what I consider bad work from my fellow writers. Life's too short--I'd rather read something published and good. I don't like reading books on deadline; it takes the fun out of it.
WHY do I feel so effed up about this? WHY can't I just make up my mind?
thank you for listening.
If its not fun for you, why are you continuing?
A few years ago, I was working full time and taking classes towards an MBA. I stopped about halfway through due to health reasons, exhaustion, and then completely changing my mind about going into corporate management after numerous negative experiences in that realm.
Currently, I've started my last semester towards a Master of Arts in Teaching for Mathematics and I'm doing my student teaching internship in a high school (which is fun so far) *and* having to take a *required* full class load (whoever decided *this* was a good idea???) along with needing to study for two standardized licensing exams and this new EDTPA assessment (literally terrifying). I try very, very, very hard to remain calm, meditative, and not go into fits of anxiety because if I can't get through all of this and pass the internship, classes, and all the standardized exams in less than 15 weeks, I won't be able to teach. Overall, even though I generally love taking classes, the pressure is too high, not only because of the crazy requirements this semester, but I've been living off of my savings while going to school and will really need a job again once I graduate. It's just scary because I feel like I have *no* leeway to mess up.
iris lilies
8-26-15, 6:43pm
I would do what energizes you. It's your life. None of us knows how much time we will have here.
this is great advice.
If its not fun for you, why are you continuing?
I agree and disagree. There are times when things we do are not necessarily fun at the time we are doing them, but if we stop doing them before the right time and never get to sow the benefits, then we may spend years regretting not persisting through something that was temporarily not fun. At the same time, we should enjoy our lives and not persist in doing things that negatively affect them and our health. It's sometimes very hard to tell when that line has been crossed though.
mschrisgo2
8-27-15, 4:28am
I went back to school to do graduate work- get my teaching credentials and M.Ed.- when I was 34. It was a private college with an excellent program. There were 32 people in my class/cohort. We were assigned to do observations in public and private schools, a minimum of 16 observations in 4 weeks, and write them up based on specific criteria. It was a lot of work but I was so energized that I could hardly sleep at night.
Then we had our second seminar. Half of the group was like me, totally energized and excited; the other half really hated being in the schools and around the kids. We share experiences, and then the instructor said that half of the class should be applying for withdrawals and started passing out the forms! There was whining about losing tuition money, but she said there were complete refunds available because they didn't want anyone in the program that hated the work. She also passed out forms to schedule academic counseling, explaining the graduate school was about "what makes your heart sing, or you'll never get through it." Wisdom, there.
I agree and disagree. There are times when things we do are not necessarily fun at the time we are doing them, but if we stop doing them before the right time and never get to sow the benefits, then we may spend years regretting not persisting through something that was temporarily not fu.
There is nothing I've seen in this thread or others that indicates there is any joy in this for frugalone. I've never heard excitement about what she'll be able to do with degree or any dreams of a future. I get the impression she is doing this as a should not a want. Or because she feels someone else expects this. That's where my question came from.
Williamsmith
8-27-15, 5:40am
I don't have a graduate degree so I can't relate on an "I've gone through that..." basis. Reading through the posts, it is curious how complicated and how much second guessing is going on in lives of people who appear to be pursuing simple living. As to whether to continue or not....just make a decision and stick with it. No regrets. Live here now. Stay out of the past accept for good remembrances and do not fear for the future....it will undoubtedly unfold in ways you would never contemplate. Indecision is worse than no decision. If it feels unresolved, it is. I'm a firm believer in making choices and not second guessing. Allow yourself to be yourself. Mistakes and all. Move on. Again, I have no initials behind my name so take it for what it is worth.
Frugalone, i'm late to the discussion here. I finished a graduate degree that took me a really lllloooonnng time (like, twice as long as it likely should have because life). I finished it because there was absolutely nothing I enjoyed as much as I enjoyed doing my research, wrestling with my data and trying to find a way to explain it all. I loved speculating about the implications of the results, and I had a terrific time at my oral defence. I didn't love everything about the program (a couple of the classes were quite annoying and pointless and a huge amount of work) but the actual research? Loved it.
This is my background for saying that in your situation, I think I'd hold my head high and say, "I've considered this, and tried switching to another stream, and I'm now sure that this program is not for me. I'm withdrawing."
I wouldn't say "I quit." You've given it a good shot and if you decide to leave, you are making a reasoned decision to do so. It's not a mistake to have tried something and found it wasn't for you.
There's absolutely no requirement written anywhere that people who writing interesting things that others value have to have an MFA, as you well know. You write interesting things that others value here all the time. Leaving the program may well open the door for you to do more writing for love rather than for obligation.
That is a really great policy that your school had! I think especially when it comes to teaching, if your heart is not in it, don't do it. The effects teachers have on students can be lifelong--good or bad!
I went back to school to do graduate work- get my teaching credentials and M.Ed.- when I was 34. It was a private college with an excellent program. There were 32 people in my class/cohort. We were assigned to do observations in public and private schools, a minimum of 16 observations in 4 weeks, and write them up based on specific criteria. It was a lot of work but I was so energized that I could hardly sleep at night.
Then we had our second seminar. Half of the group was like me, totally energized and excited; the other half really hated being in the schools and around the kids. We share experiences, and then the instructor said that half of the class should be applying for withdrawals and started passing out the forms! There was whining about losing tuition money, but she said there were complete refunds available because they didn't want anyone in the program that hated the work. She also passed out forms to schedule academic counseling, explaining the graduate school was about "what makes your heart sing, or you'll never get through it." Wisdom, there.
Thank you all for your kindness. I had a long talk with spouse last night, and there are indeed a lot of "shoulds" at work in my mind. Such as, "if you're intelligent, you should do something 'special' with your life. You can't just be ordinary." I had an incredibly critical father who always made me feel that I wasn't good enough the way I was. I never felt that my parents loved me for who I am. I still struggle with that, even though my dad has been dead for nearly three decades and my mother has mellowed with age. ;)
I also think there is a "should" about the free tuition. "Well, hey, it's there, might as well use it!" I previously worked at another college and my mom kept nagging me to take classes there. Even after I was let go, there was a free tuition policy built into my separation agreement, and she kept telling me I should go take some classes. I didn't want to (and still don't) want to step foot on that campus. She just didn't understand. She's not pressuring me with regard to the MFA and has been very supportive, just as a side note.
At the bottom of all this is a strong sense of self-hatred. I second-guess just about every decision I make in life. I'm never sure I'm doing the right thing. It's as if I'm waiting for permission...
Hard to explain.
Williamsmith--good point about SL and complications!
Indecision makes one miserable. It's like being constipated. At this point, I would be rational about your choice, ie pros, cons, what benefit or drawback there is to either choice and then make a final decision and move on. I have come to believe that being ordinary is not really such a bad thing. It's really all in how you look at it.
Teacher Terry
8-27-15, 11:24am
I say life is too short to continue with something you hate. I have 3 grad degrees that I got while raising 3 boys. It was tough but it made my heart sing. I looked forward to the career after & enjoyed the journey. I never doubted that i was doing the right thing for me. Don't let crap from your past stop you from doing what you know in your heart is right.
sweetana3
8-27-15, 11:45am
I think it is enough to be thoughtful, caring, loving, and kind in our lives. Be not wasteful and enjoy as many minutes as possible since you cannot recreate them.
Hubby spent 11 years getting his bachelors degree. For the last two years, he worked full time managing an IT dept with 40 people and going to school full time. We had no life but it was to get the corporate job he enjoyed and had for 25 years. He also had to make the decision about grad school. The only thing it would have helped with was his resume. He would not get more pay for it. It would have been paid for in full. We had a lot of discussions about it and decided against the time and effort it would have sucked out of our life.
Never regretted it and it never held him back.
I pursued post-graduate classes in technical writing and editing. I learned that I loved technical editing, and wasn't at all enthusiastic about technical writing. I earned certificates in both, then got an internship editing on-line tech courses. Did well, got rave reviews, then the IT recession hit. Goodbye new career. But I don't regret the effort.
You've learned something about yourself. Personally, I would take advantage of free classes, but I wouldn't be concerned about taking on another graduate program, unless it really captures your interest and imagination.
Yes, indecision is much like constipation. When I told spouse my feelings, he said he understood better why I say I am tired all the time, why I snap at little things etc. He said he it makes sense since I'm walking around under this load on my shoulders.
I'd love to take free classes, but my work shift/hours prevent me from taking a lot of the ones I'm interested in. One of my short-term goals is to find a position within the university that would allow me to have a 9-5 M-F shift.
iris lily
8-27-15, 11:44pm
Ok, here's my opinion about graduate degrees: they are a dime a dozen. They have little meaning, especially in this day and age. Personally, I don't think it's much of an accomplishment for most master's level degrees. There certainly are exceptions for rigorous programs, disciplines, and special situations.
Unless you (the generic you) have positive reasons for getting that degree, it seems silly to me to slog through it. Just so you can say that you've got it? uh, no.
To the OP: now that you've got a little extra money, perhaps you could use some of that as fun money to get back into your creative endeavors that you had to set aside due to lack of funds. Doing artwork might give your life joy and make it interesting to the point that you wouldn't feel a pull toward an academic degree that serves little purpose for you, given the trade offs.
Do you feel that you are really advancing in your writing? That would be the one tangible reason to stick with it.
ApatheticNoMore
8-28-15, 3:09am
Personally I guess I might consider a degree if I was convinced it had job implications (because the agony of the current job world can maybe sometimes be worse than the agony of getting a degree while working full time if it makes the job situation better), but otherwise I might take classes, whatever struck my fancy here and there or even was useful in my work, but not a degree.
This conversation reminds me of the scores of job applications I sometimes have to look at when narrowing down applicants. All of them have advanced degrees (even PhDs) and schools attended and they are applying for a generic program coordinator position with a fairly low starting salary. I wonder how many have accrued large debt to acquire the pedigree that they thought would assure career success.
If working on a Master's degree makes you so unhappy, I'd transition into something else. The workload is astounding, so if you don't love what you're doing, it could sink you. One of my professors said yesterday that the Master's degree is an exercise in endurance and pain, and I have no reason to disagree with her. I'm into my third semester, expecting to graduate next May. There are times when I wonder what the hell I was thinking, times when I wonder why I didn't find a nice easy job in a salt mine, times when I want to pull my duvet over my head and refuse to get out of bed till it's all over. When I have to turn out two 40-page papers and do a 30 minute presentation, all in the same week, I feel a huge scream building up and roiling around inside until it's over. But, and this is a big but, I totally identify as an archaeologist, and this is my boot camp. This is what gives me the tools and the chops that I need. Will I have a brilliant second career? No. Am I likely to get a tenured job? No. Will I earn more money? No. Will I have to do something other than archaeology to earn money so I can eat while I'm being an archaeologist? Almost certainly! But I can't imagine doing anything else with the rest of my life. It's not enough any more for me to read about it, no matter how brilliant the paper or the book, or to watch even the best documentaries. My own lousy essay is more engaging!
Regarding the editing of your classmates' bad writing: we do that too as archaeologists in training. Our precis and essay outlines go online for general commentary, and each student is also assigned the work of three other students for detailed critique. This is a really valuable tool, because it is the best way to learn how to do good writing yourself! How to gather ideas, put them into a coherent framework, be profluent so that your reader is drawn effortlessly along. Writing well is not easy. it's an art and a craft, whether the finished work is a Gothic romance, technical writing, or an interpretation of material recovered from a field site. That's why writing is privileged over other forms of learning, because it's essentially solidified, visible thinking. The Master's programme provides the tools and the skills in using them so that one is no longer just a consumer of knowledge but a producer of knowledge, and that knowledge is unique because nobody else has the life experience and skillset to engage with the material in this particular way. The diploma is only a piece of paper.
I'm not trying to convince OP to stay in her programme. The Master's programme iwill strain your body, mind, and soul, to its limits and then some. Life is unpredictable, and if the rewards don't outweigh the pain - move on and invest that time and energy, and the resources, in something that does make your heart sing, as a previous poster said.
i wouldn't do it if you are not really into it. i found that my on-line masters program was very challenging. i think because masters programs are more common and some not as rigorous it seems like it will be just skipping TV for a year to do the work. it was very hard work for me and i am proud of the degree i have. i took all my breaks at work to study, brought my work on vacation, didn't cook any dinners that took over 20 minutes and didn't have much in the way of adult relationships for about 2 years. i have not always seen the career benefits i expected however i probably would have still done it (maybe changed some aspects of how i did it in order to have more career potential).
Suzanne, you will make it! i remember finishing my student teaching and then having my 40th birthday come up. i rented a movie with my kids and just took a break from working. it really helped that i can research, retain and write fast. i am not sure i could have done it otherwise since i worked full time in a school during the same time. i am cringing with the reminder of long papers (in education they were shorter but based on a lot of 'field work') . you are not crazy for doing this!
I dropped out of my master's program the first semester when I realized that I didn't want to be there. I was kind of done with academic and brain work and longing for physical work and just letting my brain rest a while. Since I dropped early I was able to get most of my money back and I haven't regretted my decision at all.
If I ever get tired of working around the house, puttering in the garden and playing with my pack of furry companions, I might go back and work on a project that I've had in mind. But it would have to be for enjoyment of the process and the project, not for money, because I can make more money doing other work right now.
Spouse thinks just having a master's in anything will make me look attractive to a future employer. Are there really that many people out there who have them? Since I work in higher ed, of course I am surrounded by them. But I'm wondering about the general population. No one in my immediate family has one. Hmm...
Regarding your question about "advancing in my writing": No. I haven't even written that much since being in the program. I actually think I'm a pretty good writer now. My previous employers thought so as well. Sure, I am not perfect, and I'm not F. Scott Fitzgerald, but I'm pretty damn good, IMHO.
Ok, here's my opinion about graduate degrees: they are a dime a dozen. They have little meaning, especially in this day and age. Personally, I don't think it's much of an accomplishment for most master's level degrees. There certainly are exceptions for rigorous programs, disciplines, and special situations.
Unless you (the generic you) have positive reasons for getting that degree, it seems silly to me to slog through it. Just so you can say that you've got it? uh, no.
To the OP: now that you've got a little extra money, perhaps you could use some of that as fun money to get back into your creative endeavors that you had to set aside due to lack of funds. Doing artwork might give your life joy and make it interesting to the point that you wouldn't feel a pull toward an academic degree that serves little purpose for you, given the trade offs.
Do you feel that you are really advancing in your writing? That would be the one tangible reason to stick with it.
I can't see why you stay in this program, then, if even your writing doesn't benefit. Probably there is some benefit, but it may not be enough that you notice or that it's worth this effort.
Sure, there are a lot of master's degrees out there. If you plan to stay in academia, those people collect the degrees like jelly beans so that may be the only reason to stick with it.
Spouse thinks just having a master's in anything will make me look attractive to a future employer. Are there really that many people out there who have them? Since I work in higher ed, of course I am surrounded by them. But I'm wondering about the general population. No one in my immediate family has one. Hmm...
Unless they tell you that you need something very specific, like a Civil Engineering degree where you need to get licensed, many employers (and people in general) really don't seem to value degrees, education, or even being intelligent so long as you can convince them on the resume and interview to like you better than the other applicants, or if you know someone on the inside. HR may look to make sure that you have a piece of paper in something if it's in the job description, but I've known a lot of corporate project managers, sales managers, and miscellaneous other things who have no degree at all or maybe an AA in something and just have a lot of proven experience in what they do.
In some ways I wish it were otherwise because I *love* learning, taking classes, exploring the intellect, and maybe picking up a degree or two or three along the way, but such qualities seem to be very rarely valued in our culture unless it is directly connected to a job skill. Anti-intellectualism runs strong.
So I wouldn't recommend spending all the time and lots and lots and lots and lots and an everlasting lots of money on a degree unless it's something that you enjoy doing for fun and the cost of the fun is worth it to you, or you know that it is absolutely required for the particular job you want and you can't have that job without it. Figure out what you want to do first and *then* see if you really need a degree to go along with it. In many cases, you may already have what you need, have enough transferable skills, or just need a bit of training or a certification.
And based on what pinkytoe wrote above (and I've heard it in other places), advanced degrees can actually be a liability in finding employment, so I've heard advice from different places to leave those accomplishments off of your resume if you want to have any hope of getting an interview.
One thing I'm really enjoying about transitioning into teaching and the education field is that my degrees and my numerous intellectual interests are not considered to be liabilities. It's a very refreshing change even if the pay is a lot worse.
ApatheticNoMore
8-28-15, 9:14pm
In some ways I wish it were otherwise because I *love* learning, taking classes, exploring the intellect, and maybe picking up a degree or two or three along the way, but such qualities seem to be very rarely valued in our culture unless it is directly connected to a job skill. Anti-intellectualism runs strong.
if intellectualism just means that those who don't spend their lives chasing degrees would all be doomed to poverty, give me anti-intellectualism any day instead.
iris lilies
8-28-15, 9:17pm
...No one in my immediate family has one. Hmm....
And everyone in my immediate family has one--mother, father, brother, spouse , me. That's probably why I don't think they are a big deal, and with kids these days going immediately into graduate studies following their bachelor's degrees the concentration of graduate degrees in the population has to be rising.
Now I'm off to find those stats.
edited to add:
no clear consensus on increase of masters degrees.
one source said 10.9 % of the population had them in 2011 compared to 8.5% having them in 2001. That shows an increase though not huge.
another source said the rate of masters degrees in the population has remained stable over 30 years at 8%.
if intellectualism just means that those who don't spend their lives chasing degrees would all be doomed to poverty, give me anti-intellectualism any day instead.
It's not *just* about chasing degrees. The aspect of degrees are more of a side effect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism
I think if intellectualism is measured by the number or quality of advanced degrees, your education has been wasted.
I think if intellectualism is measured by the number or quality of advanced degrees, your education has been wasted.
For me, the measure is more of an intense hunger for intellectual challenge and stimulation. And if you're going to be studying certain things with a certain level of intensity anyway, then why not go ahead and get the degree? In our culture, the rewards need to be intrinsic though or one is better off doing something else.
Williamsmith
8-28-15, 11:30pm
I think that I agree with Calvin Cooledge , "persistence and determination alone are omnipotent." As long as you are right in the first place. Along the same lines my father would always say, "Either do it or don't do it....but don't just be satisfied with trying." I always told my kids that if it feels like you are attempting to put a square peg in a round hole, maybe you better start looking around for a square hole. That usually got them to thinking about the wisdom of being stubborn.
ApatheticNoMore
8-29-15, 12:09am
For me, the measure is more of an intense hunger for intellectual challenge and stimulation. And if you're going to be studying certain things with a certain level of intensity anyway, then why not go ahead and get the degree? In our culture, the rewards need to be intrinsic though or one is better off doing something else.
I have looked at the classes I have taken, most were career related a few not though pure extension programs (but don't think this makes them baby classes, while some colleges extensions are like that - and there's nothing wrong with that if you just want to learn to bake bread :), these were not) and I'm like: well doh, that's a degree I didn't get there (because it's literally enough units etc.), but the classes taken were mostly just things I hoped to use in my work, they weren't classes any degree program would actually consist of - shrug.
I guess in general I'm not that intense anyway. I see the sacrifice of social life and wonder if it makes anyone happy to give up all social life for intellectual challenge and stimulation (mostly I think maybe if it personally pays off in career it does. But I have a feeling if they used degrees for screening jobs anymore they they already do, jobs would probably be just as mindnumbing as today - even if something is new and interesting after you've done it for the 1000th time it's not - but you'd need to have gone to college for 10 years to get them). Plus additional stress of course, so you can not only stress about your job but also about school (a deadline for a project at work AND a term paper due!).
ANM, it sounds to me (especially after reading the Ask A Manager thread) that you're very burned out on both the job and school and you need a break. You probably aren't going to be able to make good decisions about what you want until you are able to get yourself sorted and not feeling bone-dead exhausted all the time. Since you aren't enjoying your time at school and don't have a clear need for being there (as in I *must* have a law degree to be a lawyer), then drop it for now. You can always go back and finish later if it's something you want to do. I'd say drop the job as well and find something else less stressful (or even just take some time away from even having a job) if you can manage it. Do you really need to have "a career" or would a low-stress "good enough" job be fine and allow you the extra time for more of a social life or writing or any other thing you might really want to do?
So, a few thoughts: First, just because something is hard doesn't necessarily mean you should stop doing it. Many worthwhile endeavors have a big pain-in-the-butt factor. Graduate School would often fit this bill.
On the other hand, I find education for education's sake to be admirable. But seeking a graduate degree for the sake of a graduate degree, absent a somewhat compelling reason, isn't the same to me. Any allure a graduate degree may have will likely fade to normalcy once you get it, and seem no big deal pretty quickly. In part because after the Masters there is the PhD, and if you get a PhD, you may start thinking that the school you went to wasn't that hot, and your PhD as a consequence isn't all that great. It can be a chase with no end.
But context matters. A four-year degree is an impressive achievement for someone coming from a background where few people around them valued education. If someone comes from a well-educated family, on the other hand, then a graduate degree isn't particularly impressive at all. And the conversation switches to where and what the degree is in.....
I don't know any more than what you posted, but I'd encourage you stick it out for the semester. It is only a few months. But there is no shame in dropping out either.
A couple of updates: Talked to my Mom on Saturday. She asked me how school was going. I told her, "I don't like it." She responded: "Nobody likes school." I'm not sure she has any idea what an MFA actually is. I don't think she understands that it's got a great deal to do with personal fulfillment and very little to do with employment. Even though I don't want to teach, I see people from my program on Facebook all the time talking about how adjunct teaching sucks, how they can't find jobs, etc. etc. I did try to explain but she kind of changed the subject.
I wrote to my mentor telling her some of the feelings I have here. She said not everyone finds the program "fun," necessarily. Not everyone makes the connection with members of their cohort. Boredom and annoyance are also common. And writing is never, ever easy.
Finally, she said, "It ultimately turns on how committed you feel to that book and whether you feel you need the program to help you complete it." And that if I really find I need or want to quit, I should.
I'm still feeling on the fence about this. Haven't talked to my spouse about it in over a week now. I don't understand why, but I feel guilty about the whole thing. Guilty, why? I have not committed a crime. Why do I feel like I should do this?
Why do I feel like I should do this?
Just guessing here, but perhaps it is because on an unconscious level you know that the program is something you really want to complete and that you will feel regret if you quit.
One of my grad school professors told me that I needed to stop being so hung up on doing "the work" perfectly and that I needed to instead "enjoy the process" -- maybe that applies in some way to you as well. Can you find a way to just enjoy the process of participating in the program?
iris lilies
9-3-15, 5:05pm
I'm still feeling on the fence about this. Haven't talked to my spouse about it in over a week now. I don't understand why, but I feel guilty about the whole thing. Guilty, why? I have not committed a crime. Why do I feel like I should do this?
Throwing out some random ideas that may or may not apply here:
Is it really guilt that you feel for stepping out of the degree program? Dig deep down, could it be something else?
Perhaps you feel shame, shame for finding the program a slog because if you were worthy of it, it would be a breeze (?) Do you consider yourself not worthy of it? Only people better than you should be completing it? etc.
So let's say it IS guilt. Guilt comes from doing something "wrong" or something against one's inner sense of right. Why is it "right" for you to get an MFA? It's really not, is it? An MFA holder is just an abstract view of who you think you are or what you should do. Conversely, it's not "wrong" to get the degree. It's just an educational experience, some of which will be fun, most not fun, some worthwhile, other parts not worthwhile. Like most of life.
I think MFA degrees are kinda cool because they aren't playing into the degree mill mindset of the educational system, that I see, anyway. They are performance degrees, at least that's how I view them. Pretty simplistic, but people who have MFA's have produced art or musical concerts or writings. I like that idea. Yet for myself, it's not important, I'll produce what I wish to produce creatively without the official stamp of academic approval.
A final thought: decisions are seldom made with considerations that make them black or white. There is usually some ambivalence about a decision, for me anyway. Yet, I usually don't have trouble going forward at a particular point to make the decision and to stick with it. I just want to recognize all (or as many as I can) of the pros and cons of the decision and subsequent action. For me, that seems to be important, because when I start to review a past decision in my mind, I can look at how the decision saved me bad stuff happening, and for some reason that seems comforting. I like to know about things, I don't have to experience all things. Wish that made sense. If I'd gone through an MFA program in writing I could probably get this across better, haha.
Your reply is very logical, iris lilies. Thank you very much.
In a sense, I do feel some sort of guilt. I feel as though I wasted the time of the program director and everyone who worked with me during residency, as well as my mentor. I also feel shame--yes, I confess I did think the program would be a breeze. After all, I was a professional writer for over a decade. However, creative writing is a whole 'nother ball of wax. And I feel shame that I'd rather sit around and read whatever the heck I FEEL like reading, not something assigned, or maybe I'd rather play Words with Friends on my tablet than Do Something Big and Important.
Does anyone remember those commercials for the United Negro College Fund: "Because a mind is a terrible thing to waste"? I mentioned that to my spouse as part of what was driving me. And he said, "You are using an advertising campaign to judge yourself by?"
Yeah.
P.S. Anyone recall Dan Quayle's mangling of the above:
"What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is."
Throwing out some random ideas that may or may not apply here:
Is it really guilt that you feel for stepping out of the degree program? Dig deep down, could it be something else?
Perhaps you feel shame, shame for finding the program a slog because if you were worthy of it, it would be a breeze (?) Do you consider yourself not worthy of it? Only people better than you should be completing it? etc.
So let's say it IS guilt. Guilt comes from doing something "wrong" or something against one's inner sense of right. Why is it "right" for you to get an MFA? It's really not, is it? An MFA holder is just an abstract view of who you think you are or what you should do. Conversely, it's not "wrong" to get the degree. It's just an educational experience, some of which will be fun, most not fun, some worthwhile, other parts not worthwhile. Like most of life.
I think MFA degrees are kinda cool because they aren't playing into the degree mill mindset of the educational system, that I see, anyway. They are performance degrees, at least that's how I view them. Pretty simplistic, but people who have MFA's have produced art or musical concerts or writings. I like that idea. Yet for myself, it's not important, I'll produce what I wish to produce creatively without the official stamp of academic approval.
A final thought: decisions are seldom made with considerations that make them black or white. There is usually some ambivalence about a decision, for me anyway. Yet, I usually don't have trouble going forward at a particular point to make the decision and to stick with it. I just want to recognize all (or as many as I can) of the pros and cons of the decision and subsequent action. For me, that seems to be important, because when I start to review a past decision in my mind, I can look at how the decision saved me bad stuff happening, and for some reason that seems comforting. I like to know about things, I don't have to experience all things. Wish that made sense. If I'd gone through an MFA program in writing I could probably get this across better, haha.
Your reply is very logical, iris lilies. Thank you very much.
In a sense, I do feel some sort of guilt. I feel as though I wasted the time of the program director and everyone who worked with me during residency, as well as my mentor.
If they are good mentors, they they will be THRILLED that a bit of time in the program helped you discover that pursuing creative writing or non-fiction writing in this way was not right for you. I recently resigned from my position at a non-profit where a big part of my job was mentoring young researchers. They had won one of the most prestigious global academic fellowships and were in China to do language study and research for 10-15 months. Was I thrilled to hear that many of them went on to great graduate programs, and that many of those later got awesome tenure track positions? Of course. But to be honest, I was even MORE thrilled for the ones who, after 10 months of incredibly intense research experiences in difficult environments, decided "Nope, that's not for me!" These kids had pretty much all drunk the koolaid about how wonderful academic life would be, and many probably would have done fine in grad school. But the slog to a tenure track position, much less tenure itself, is a long and difficult one and it isn't the right path for many, if not most, people. I mentored and supported these kids, helped them through the rough times, helped them think about how to frame their projects so that they were do-able and how to manage their time and their energy to get through them. And if that 10-15 months of work didn't make them say "Yes, this is how I want/need to spend my life" then I supported them to think about what else they might be able to do with their skill set.
Ultimately I cared deeply about the people I worked with and wanted nothing more than for them to be happy. So when I see one of my program alumni posting on Facebook about the condo sale they just facilitated as a real estate agent in SFO, or how they have started a new business doing health and wellness consulting and fitness training, or how they got into med school in the perfect program for them, I am equally happy for all of them. I know that the time they spent in my program helped them grow as people and figure out what path in life was best for them. And I know I did a great job as a mentor because I didn't insist that they follow what seemed to be the obvious path.
lhamo, thank you for a view from the other side of the desk. It's good to know that there are people out there who are hoping for the best for others and not trying to make them fit a certain profile.
Me again. Still here. Still in the freaking writing program.
I still want to drop out but I thought I'd try and get through the semester. I'm behind on my reading list, and my mentor is nudging me to talk about my project and my writing style. I don't quite know how to tell her I don't think I'm coming back.
It's somewhat amazing to me how little I care about the whole thing at the moment. On the other hand, I think there is something embarrassing about getting an Incomplete. On the other hand...
I wonder if talking to your mentor about how you are feeling would help you to sort out what you want to do for the rest of this semester?
iris lilies
10-5-15, 6:00pm
Somewhat related to this thread so I'll piggy back on it: I am contemplating going entirely through a certification program with no stops, taking the courses as they come up. This is National Garden Club certification for becoming a judge.
I already took one of the 3 day courses and haven't yet heard if I passed all 3 tests, and that provides my decision point. If I passed all 3 tests, that's my signal to go forward at a fast clip to finish course work by the end of next year. If I didn't pass, that's my signal to slow down and start the program again in 2017 when the new one rolls out.
The material is fairly interesting and it fits right In with my hobbies of Lily and Iris shows. But I have one main reason for getting certification to be a flower show judge: it gives me credentials to enter Art in Bloom at the St. Louis Art Museum, that's my lifelong goal for floral design.
If I didn't have this one clear goal, I would have less motivation for going through this multi-year course.
IL, that sounds GREAT! Something you would be GREAT at. I wish you the best in passing all the tests!
IL, I have no doubt in my mind that you did fantastic on those tests! How very exciting! (And if by some chance you didn't pass one of them, then it just provides the opportunity to have more material to enjoy in 2017!)
She does know how I feel.
She has made suggestions about how I might do my thesis (differently from my original idea) and I don't agree with her suggestions. She also said if I feel I have to quit, I should.
I'm just basically doing this half-a$$ed job of going through the semester. I admit: I'm not devoting the time I should be to doing the work. It probably makes more sense to just quit.
I wonder if talking to your mentor about how you are feeling would help you to sort out what you want to do for the rest of this semester?
She does know how I feel.
She has made suggestions about how I might do my thesis (differently from my original idea) and I don't agree with her suggestions. She also said if I feel I have to quit, I should.
I'm just basically doing this half-a$$ed job of going through the semester. I admit: I'm not devoting the time I should be to doing the work. It probably makes more sense to just quit.
What is it that's making you not quit? What is still bothering you about it?
I'm not entirely sure. I don't think I have a good answer for that.
Here's part of it: I run into people from the program because I work at the college where it is hosted. And they always have tales about how they felt the same way. So then I feel reassured that "misery loves company" or "misery is normal for writers."
Then a little time passes and I find I am procrastinating on doing the work (also supposedly normal for writers). And I am right back where I started.
Does this make sense?
I'm not entirely sure. I don't think I have a good answer for that.
Here's part of it: I run into people from the program because I work at the college where it is hosted. And they always have tales about how they felt the same way. So then I feel reassured that "misery loves company" or "misery is normal for writers."
Then a little time passes and I find I am procrastinating on doing the work (also supposedly normal for writers). And I am right back where I started.
Does this make sense?
Well yes and no. I'm currently working on a Masters of Arts in Teaching and have had classes with others working on the MAT as well as various Masters and PhD for Math Education, and while there were classes that we didn't always enjoy (or sometimes even hated), practically everyone was fairly enthusiastic about their programs in general. Same for when I was working on an MBA. I did drop the MBA about halfway through because I had some stuff going on in my life and couldn't handle anything besides bare survival, so classes had to go. Not sure if I'll go back at some future point and finish or not since my career goals have drastically changed since then.
I did find this forum thread involving people currently in MFA programs and are giving their opinion about them. Not sure if reading through would be any help. https://www.pw.org/forum/Writing_and_Publishing_C6/MFA_Programs_F34/So_What_do_you_like/dislike_about_your_MFA_program_P230410/
Procrastination is fairly universal, so I think you have plenty of company there. :)
I'd probably set aside a good amount of time and make up one of those PRO/CON charts and then do my best to find as many reasons to go or to stay as possible and then see which one wins out, and even if I didn't make a decision at that point, I'd have a better idea of my own reasoning. Maybe taking a few days to journal could help. I suppose the final question would be whether or not the ultimate result you would gain from staying would outweigh any hardships you would endure by staying?
Yes, I think the pro and con list is a great idea. Thanks, too, for the link. I visit that message board every now and then but had never seen that particular thread.
iris lilies
10-5-15, 11:01pm
Thanks you guys for the thumbs up on this certification coursework. If I don't pass it's not the end of the world, ill keep,plugging away at it.
Hi, everyone,
Just wanted to update you on what finally happened.
At the end of October, I found I was way behind on my reading list for the semester. Since there was no way I was going to complete the list, my mentor suggested I take an Incomplete for the class. I told her I wanted to do this around the end of October.
I discussed it with my partner, and decided I really wanted to leave the program. I never told anyone else, except my best friend. In the meantime, I never heard another word from my mentor until this past week, because residency is next week and everyone is getting ready for same. I think it was really rude of her not to contact me, but I don't know, maybe this is how grad school is.
I also never heard anything from anyone in either of my cohorts (I was in two separate ones, the original one and the second one when I re-upped in June). Not a "how's the writing going" or "how are you" or anything. I left the private Facebook group that the second one had, and nobody noticed. Quite frankly, I never connected with anyone in the second cohort, so I'm not surprised.
(Sorry, this is turning into a bit of a rant).
Anyway, yesterday I emailed the director of the program and my mentor and told them I am leaving the program. I still haven't heard a word from either of them. Bizarre...I guess they are busy. Or pissed off, maybe?
I think I made the right decision, in any event.
rodeosweetheart
1-7-16, 10:46am
When my students decide to leave a class of mine, I don't take it personally, but I don't write them and ask them to stay, either. I know we are under pressure to do so, as a retention gimmick, but honestly, I feel it is a student's responsibility to take the class, do the work, etc., and not mine to chase them down. I had a mentor in my counseling program tell me, If you are working harder than the client, then you are doing it wrong.
To me, with teaching, this means it is the student's class, their responsibility. With other 500 students last year, I don't have the time or the inclination to contact those who have elected to do something else with their time. I'm not mad, just do not feel it is appropriate.
Maybe that helps--view from other side of the aisle?
And I have left grad programs before, two actually, as they were not good fits. I regret it now, but at the time, I did the best I could, and my life was not aligned to support me in the programs I had chosen--not enough financial margin to do it comfortably.
Maybe it will be better for you at a better time, or maybe you don't need the program.
Teacher Terry
1-7-16, 1:26pm
I teach at a university p.t. and like Rodeo I don't contact students if they leave. I have 3 grad degrees and left 1 program and I never heard from the 1 I left. I think it is normal because students are adults and I expect they have good reasons for leaving.
Thanks for your input and POV!
I'm just not sure what is/was going on with my mentor. As far as I know, she is only mentoring two other students. She is also writing a book so I know she is busy. I just thought after I said I'd take an Incomplete, she'd at least have acknowledged it. As it turns out I don't even think she told the director b/c when I emailed the director, she seemed unaware of what was going on. It's a very small program.
She had told me she wasn't going to ask me to stay, so I wasn't expecting that. I guess I was expecting...something.
When I found myself just not wanting to do the work, and being anxious all the time about the program, that's when I decided that (at least right now) I don't want to be in school. I think it's hard to go to school and work full time. I did it when I was younger but it's too much for me now.
When my students decide to leave a class of mine, I don't take it personally, but I don't write them and ask them to stay, either. I know we are under pressure to do so, as a retention gimmick, but honestly, I feel it is a student's responsibility to take the class, do the work, etc., and not mine to chase them down. I had a mentor in my counseling program tell me, If you are working harder than the client, then you are doing it wrong.
To me, with teaching, this means it is the student's class, their responsibility. With other 500 students last year, I don't have the time or the inclination to contact those who have elected to do something else with their time. I'm not mad, just do not feel it is appropriate.
Maybe that helps--view from other side of the aisle?
And I have left grad programs before, two actually, as they were not good fits. I regret it now, but at the time, I did the best I could, and my life was not aligned to support me in the programs I had chosen--not enough financial margin to do it comfortably.
Maybe it will be better for you at a better time, or maybe you don't need the program.
iris lilies
1-7-16, 3:44pm
...I also never heard anything from anyone in either of my coherts
...Not a "how's the writing going" or "how are you" or anything
...I left the private Facebook group that the second one had, and nobody noticed
...I still haven't heard a word from either of them. Bizarre...I guess they are busy. Or pissed off.
This seems like displaced blame, or anger.
I will bet that some if your coherts as well as your mentor noticed your absence but simply didn't take it a step further to contact you because you guys are acquaintances, not friends. when someone leaves, I assume they wish to leave, ya know? Not be plagued with questions to explain themselves. I guess I assume people to be confident in their actions, to act in their own best interests.
i will sit around and talk about motivations and feelings and choosing paths in life with my friends. But that shit can be draining, and I'm not going to drag out the topics with mere acquaintances.
I'm not blaming anyone for what happened. Am I angry or disappointed? In a word, yes. My second cohort didn't even speak to me the first time we "met" in a meeting with the program director. That's just plain rude, IMHO.
Regarding the Facebook group etc., the reason for such a group is to provide mutual support for one another. The group was under 10 people. no, we were not friends, but for all anyone in this group (or my mentor) knew, I could have been hit by a bus.
I know people in the program who have had terrific cohorts. Have made lifelong friends and long term ties. That just wasn't my experience.
And having worked in university marketing, maybe I should recognize BS when I see it. The mentors/instructors and the director all promote the program with this "we're all good buddies" stuff. I guess I fell for it, huh?
This seems like displaced blame, or anger.
I will bet that some if your coherts as well as your mentor noticed your absence but simply didn't take it a step further to contact you because you guys are acquaintances, not friends. when someone leaves, I assume they wish to leave, ya know? Not be plagued with questions to explain themselves. I guess I assume people to be confident in their actions, to act in their own best interests.
i will sit around and talk about motivations and feelings and choosing paths in life with my friends. But that shit can be draining, and I'm not going to drag out the topics with mere acquaintances.
iris lilies
1-7-16, 5:17pm
...The mentors/instructors and the director all promote the program with this "we're all good buddies" stuff. I guess I fell for it, huh?
It's likely that they DID form close relationships, given their positions, they would be very very into the material, the program, and the experience.
You were not, you had a different experience, that doesn't make them wrong. Doesn't make you wrong, either. :)
Sorry the leaving of the program was unpleasant, frugalone . It sounds like you made the right decision to go, though, and I hope you will enjoy a real sense of relief from walking away.
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