View Full Version : LOL, they just called me a hoarder. Hope you are one too....
Funny, and here I thought I was a saver. People used to complain the savings rate was too low. Now, it makes you a "hoarder".
Whatever>8)
The St. Louis Federal Reserve (http://www.simplelivingforum.net/id/43752521) thinks it has the answer: A paper the central bank branch published this week blames the low level of money movement in large part on consumers and their "willingness to hoard money." The paper also cites the Fed's own policies as a reason for consumers' unwillingness to spend....
"So why did the monetary base increase not cause a proportionate increase in either the general price level or (gross domestic product)?" economist Yi Wen and associate Maria A. Arias asked in the St. Louis Fed paper (http://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-economy/what-does-money-velocity-tell-us-about-low-inflation-in-the-u-s/). "The answer lies in the private sector's dramatic increase in their willingness to hoard money instead of spend it. Such an unprecedented increase in money demand has slowed down the velocity of money."
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101963821
gimmethesimplelife
9-2-14, 5:02pm
Funny, and here I thought I was a saver. People used to complain the savings rate was too low. Now, it makes you a "hoarder".
Whatever>8)It's amazing to me in this economy featuring such uncertainty that someone would consider saving money as "hoarding". Absolutely amazing. Count me in as a hoarder, just wish I had more to hoard lol. Rob
Give me a break! What a ridiculous thing for them to say......but it doesn't surprise me. To "them".......spending is everything. Count me in as a hoarder too!
It is your duty as a citizen to consume!
http://www.exohuman.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/obey_consume.jpg
They didn't call YOU a hoarder,; they just described a stereotypical money hoarder: one who saves it, more than they spend it. Now, if all the Hoarders would spend their money on Pizza, instead of hoarding, we'd see an economic boom, again.
I'd rather spend my money on sushi. Not pizza. I can make a perfectly good pizza at home.
It is pretty easy to make world class sushi at home too.
I'm a hoarder AND , according to my CC companies, a deadbeat because I pay off my CC bill in full each month and most times never use it - use that hoarded cash instead. How rude and unAmerican of me :-)
gimmethesimplelife
9-3-14, 12:12pm
I'm a hoarder AND , according to my CC companies, a deadbeat because I pay off my CC bill in full each month and most times never use it - use that hoarded cash instead. How rude and unAmerican of me :-)LOL You rebel you! Nah. I see this as very wise and very practical, especially given the nature of the times we now live in. I truly do wonder, though, with more and more "hoarding" of cash - how is this economy based on a model of continuing growth in spending going to endure? But saving money as hoarding - no, not unless extreme and over the top in being cheap to do so. Rob
The pendulum always swings both ways. For every virtue there is a correlative vice. So, saving money is prudent and smart; hoarding money is another thing entirely:
From WiseGeek:
"When saving money, there is normally a specific purpose or intent in mind. That purpose may be short-term or long-term in nature. For example, a family may set up a savings account as a means of saving funds for an upcoming vacation. Alternatively, a household may choose to consistently deposit funds into that account as a means of saving a down payment for a home, a new car, or some other goal. Saving for retirement is also considered a goal-oriented strategy that is productive and responsible.
"In contrast, hoarding money has no other purpose than to accumulate financial resources. There is no intended goal for the funds that are set aside, and no plans to make use of the money at some future point in time. People who engage in hoarding money will often forgo necessities in order to add a little more to their savings account, such as food or clothing. It is not unusual for a hoarder to forgo purchasing health or life insurance, even though these resources are likely to be beneficial at some time in the future.
"Hoarding money involves an unhealthy obsession with the accumulation of financial reserves. Just as all types of hoarding illnesses prompt people to accumulate things they don’t really need, the activity of hoarding money is likely to trigger a short-term burst of good feelings. This is not unlike someone who hoards possessions when encountering a sale and making purchases that are at a deep discount. This emotional high is often followed by a period of depressed thoughts when the realization hits that the effort to save did not produce longer lasting satisfaction.
"For people who suffer from any form of hoarding illness, it is important to identify the underlying causes for the activity. Once those causes are identified and the issues that led to the hoarding are resolved, the individual can begin to enjoy a higher quality of life once more. In the case of anyone who engages in hoarding money, this often means rethinking the way they view money and learning how to manage both saving and spending in a manner that is balanced, responsible, and does not motivate the individual to do without necessities or put aside money without establishing some type of eventual goal or use for that money."
I think it becomes problematic for a society when everyone is hoarding money out of fear. If money does not have some degree of flow to it because of fear of scarcity then it can overall be detrimental to society. I'm not saying the goal should be to spend, spend, spend--I'm just talking about seeing money as having a "flow" to it that benefits others. For instance Bill Gates has a LOT more money than he needs, so he's trying to eliminate disease and make education available to many, many people. He is not a money hoarder by that definition.
I think it becomes problematic for a society when everyone is hoarding money out of fear.
But that is exactly why I save- I am afraid (a quite reasonable fear in my estimation) that there will be a point in time people will stop giving it to me so I try to hoard it now while I can still get it.
I've got a bigger cash reserve than is normal for me right now because I don't see a many appealing alternatives. Equities and real estate seem overpriced right now; and bonds would seem likely to fall once interest rates begin moving up again. We've had a long spell of government trying to help borrowers at the expense of savers. I think a lot of people and businesses are just keeping their powder dry until we return to a more normal policy environment.
But that is exactly why I save- I am afraid (a quite reasonable fear in my estimation) that there will be a point in time people will stop giving it to me so I try to hoard it now while I can still get it.
But the question is, how much would be enough for you? If you save up $100,000, is that enough? $1,000,000? $10,000,000? $100,000,000? I think the point is, there comes a time when you clearly have enough to ensure the security of your family and even your children's families, and you have everything you could possibly need in your lifetime. If you are still afraid of not having enough at that point, do you think that's a rational fear?
We talk a lot on these boards about what is "enough" and that goes for "enough money" as well as "enough stuff"
I don't think most people with $100 million keep it "hoarded" in the bank, or under the mattress. Typically they invest the capital in productive enterprises, to the benefit of all of us.
I don't think most people with $100 million keep it "hoarded" in the bank, or under the mattress. Typically they invest the capital in productive enterprises, to the benefit of all of us.
That's right--and that's fine--but there are people who might hoard to feed their addiction for money and to themselves and others. I still think if you have $100,000,000 and you know you're secure and you are a venture capitalist risking it for fun or for the benefit of others that's one thing. But if you have that amount of money and you are still afraid, and still feel compelled to stick it in offshore accounts for no reason or no benefit to yourself or others, you're a hoarder.
Add me to the hoarder club. I even skipped the brandnew fancy-schamcy laundry set and got a plain basic set for half the price when I needed to replace the old set that I am leaving at my old residence. All that glitters is not gold.
Most of the following video is NOT relevant to the topic, except for minutes 8:40-10:50. If you watch that short 2 minute segment, Gabor Mate explains the flip side of ambition and greed, which relates to the idea that addiction to money for its own sake is NOT a good thing.
http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/this-video-dispels-every-nature-vs-nurture-myth-youve-ever-heard/
Funny - blaming consumers who were burnt in the last downturn for "hoarding" their nickels and dimes. While we see one story after another of banks and other business sidelining many billions waiting to see where they might eventually invest.
What they are really complaining about are consumers unwilling to help create huge amounts of debt like they did last decade. Consumers on the whole don't have a lot of money to "hoard".
The media was always telling us the Chinese saved huge amounts of money. Well, when the state suddenly stops free education, health care and housing and tells you to pay it yourself, savings are critical. Security is probably the top reason for saving money for the future.
The media was always telling us the Chinese saved huge amounts of money. Well, when the state suddenly stops free education, health care and housing and tells you to pay it yourself, savings are critical. Security is probably the top reason for saving money for the future.
I agree--but really, how much money is a reasonable amount to feel secure about your future? I'm not talking about a regular person trying to get through their lives feeling confident they won't run out, even with a few unexpected events. I'm talking about cash hoarders who just have no limits to how much they sock away.
I'm talking about cash hoarders who just have no limits to how much they sock away.
Do these people exist in any significant number? Who are they?
Do these people exist in any significant number? Who are they?
Individuals:
America's top 1 percent saved their money at a rate of 37 percent last quarter...In addition, a Bank of America study cited in the CNBC report found that more than half of millionaires have a "substantial" amount of cash on hand and of that group, about 60 percent said they didn't plan to invest it in the next two years.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/07/rich-americans-hoarding-cash_n_3720941.html
And companies:
"We think it does a disservice for our economy, workers, and the shareholders of those companies that those companies are not growing their businesses to create jobs," Rees said.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/12/cash-hoarding-companies-spend-lend-economy_n_1666424.html
iris lilies
9-3-14, 9:21pm
Individuals:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/07/rich-americans-hoarding-cash_n_3720941.html
... more than half of millionaires have a "substantial" amount of cash on hand and of that group, about 60 percent said they didn't plan to invest it in the next two years....
Oh for heaven's sake. Millionaires are common, that designation has little meaning, they are your "regular people." (there goes Huffpo again, whipping up class envy)
We generate savings at that rate of 37% and more. With Alzheimer's disease running rampant in my family and nursing home costs at $100,000 annually, I hardly think half a million dollars is excessive to hold back for that specific eventuality. We aren't in the 1% of earners or even close to it, but we are high in net worth because I don't "trust in God" or Nanny G to provide.
ApatheticNoMore
9-3-14, 9:43pm
The irony is the average person saving is probably entirely futile as it will never be enough anyway.
What is a "substantial" amount of cash, according to Huffpo, in that lovely little class warfare hit piece?
I just looked - I have about $300k in cash-like vehicles sitting in an account I can write checks on.
Why?
Kid goes away to freshman year of college this year, no financial aid, I have to pay full freight.
So, I've been hoarding. Being a bad citizen by not buying cheap junk to "circulate" my money.
Hilariously, if I'd spent all my money instead of saving it, the university would have offered my daughter 100% aid.
Oh for heaven's sake. Millionaires are common, that designation has little meaning, they are your "regular people." (there goes Huffpo again, whipping up class envy)
We generate savings at that rate of 37% and more. With Alzheimer's disease running rampant in my family and nursing home costs at $100,000 annually, I hardly think half a million dollars is excessive to hold back for that specific eventuality. We aren't in the 1% of earners or even close to it, but we are high in net worth because I don't "trust in God" or Nanny G to provide.
I totally agree! Rational saving to secure one's future and even one's children's future and even one's children's children's future is not hoarding. It's not hoarding to put money away to pay for your children's education. It's hoarding when you save exhorbitant amounts that you couldn't possibly need or use in your lifetime or your children's lifetime, and it can be an addiction to just stockpile money with no intent to use it or invest it or give it away. That's all, folks! Can't we agree that anything good can be taken to an extreme? I'm not pointing a finger at ANYONE on this board. I am saying that saving too much is just as bad as eating too much or spending too much or being idle too much or working too much. It's all about too much, so why is money exempt from that concept? And it's not about a dollar amount of too much--it's about the intent and the feelings behind it all. A cash hoarder will save money at the expense of his/her own quality of life. Think Scrooge.
I just don't see a lot of really wealthy people sitting on huge Scrooge McDuck-like stockpiles of cash.
I just don't see a lot of really wealthy people sitting on huge Scrooge McDuck-like stockpiles of cash.
You don't see them because they're all sitting at home eating dog food and holding up their underwear with binder clips :)
iris lilies
9-3-14, 11:50pm
...Can't we agree that anything good can be taken to an extreme? ...
Of course.
... I am saying that saving too much is just as bad as eating too much or spending too much or being idle too much or working too much. It's all about too much, so why is money exempt from that concept?...
It's not exempt. It's just that there is no real information about how many people have hoarded money according to your definition and the HuffPo piece is without substance in this regard.
Now onto a new topic. What about "love." Can there be too much "love?"
Discuss.
I just don't see a lot of really wealthy people sitting on huge Scrooge McDuck-like stockpiles of cash.
But isn't it a great image? I always wanted to encounter something like that -- the heap, I mean. Was it Scrooge McDuck who used to go to the vault to visit his money?
ApatheticNoMore
9-4-14, 3:54am
Because the truth is "regular people" are never likely to save enough to cover every possible conceivable contingency (which I suppose is what one needs to have "enough" according to this thread). But what if I never work a day over 50 due to age discrimination (ie the scenario described here where they stop paying you money) AND the government stops covering housing, education and healthcare (which I guess means no medicare - this all despite the fact one has probably given the government at least 20-25% of one's income all one's working life), and then I get Alzheimer for 10 years, only since I never worked a day since I turned 50, plus paid for all my healthcare in old age, and there's not enough money for it. Etc. etc.
As for enough love, I recommend keeping an extra spouse on the side (or at least a mistress and whatever the male equivalent is). Because what if your spouse dies, don't you want another lined up? What if they get alzheimers, what if it's even early onset? And what if they cheat on you and what if you lose that loving feeling and .... Really one can never have too many.
I think I am being negligent and leaving out some what ifs, what if all your savings you had saved for all your contingencies became worthless?
Here is the true story of a real money hoarder and her sad end
http://archive.indystar.com/article/99999999/NEWS06/110506020/RetroIndy-murder-Marjorie-Jackson
Of course.
It's not exempt. It's just that there is no real information about how many people have hoarded money according to your definition and the HuffPo piece is without substance in this regard.
Now onto a new topic. What about "love." Can there be too much "love?"
Discuss.
Yes, love can turn into an addiction, too. Not "real" love. You can't have too much of that. But, take the example of money, and make it the object of your fear and avarice and pride. Money itself is neutral and even good, but put in that petri dish of negative emotions, you take it and it overtakes your life, like a addiction, so that you stockpile it even when you don't have to, you deprive yourself of joy because you aren't happy with the amount you have, you deprive your family of the extra money that could help them out at no detriment to you at all, and you deprive your community of the support you could give it.
Take love and put it in the same petri dish of fear, avarice and pride, and all of a sudden you're jealous, you want to possess other people, you deprive others of love by holding it to yourself, and you poison the the people you come in contact with with the toxic energy. OR you make yourself miserable and try to control others by endless self-sacrifice. (Codependency, masking as love)
And in terms of no real information about how many people do that, first of all, I think there are more people who fit that definition than you think (It sounds like you think there might be one or two outliers somewhere--I think there's a lot more than that.). And the point is, to address the OP, it's not laughable or inconceivable that saving money can be taken to an extreme where it does no one, even the owner, any good.
Again, think Andrew Carnegie vs. Scrooge.
And I think in general, people can live very happy and fulfilled lives without undue anxiety about money. If you have 10M in the bank and you're worried, I think that's needless anxiety. If you have far, far less than that, and you are spending your life energy worried (NOT just cautious or prudent--I mean anxious), that's your choice.
"Look at the lilies of the field, they neither sow nor reap."
Read about HeidiMarie Schwermer, or Mark Boyle, or Peace Pilgrim, and it's obvious that some people find NO money much more freeing than too much of it.
But I digress: Both love and money are supposed to FLOW, not get stopped up in the intestines of fear and greed. .
"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."
And if you allow money to flow the same way, to me, that represents how societies work best. Yes, by all means, plan for the future and plan for contingencies, but beyond that, let it flow.. (I'll have to come up with a spin-off of the Frozen song.. )
And, ANM, your "what-ifs" could happen, but equally implausible as the chain of events that you set up (while still possible) is a situation where we have a State coup and all of a sudden our money is not worth the paper (or the air, which is more to the point) it's printed on. Then what? Or you could be like my mother who in one year had a devastating stroke, her husband walked, and her possessions all burned in a fire. And I've never seen her more at peace. And she would send me $5 out of her meager social security check for each of the kids every month.
We could "what-if" ourselves into a frenzy, but the truth is, we can only take reasonable precautions and then trust the rest to God or whoever your higher power might be. For some people, that's the Almighty Dollar.
I have about $300k in cash-like vehicles sitting in an account I can write checks on.
Why?
Kid goes away to freshman year of college this year, no financial aid, I have to pay full freight.
Well, then, my dear bae, you are no longer a hoarder because you are about to spend your hundreds of thousands of dollars on our immensely over-inflated education system. (And according to the definition previously offered you never were one, because you had a specific purchase in mind.) So you can stop being defensive now - you're just a consumer like all the other good citizens. In fact, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on someone else's education probably qualifies you as a model consumer-citizen.
ETA: you too, IL - you'll be keeping the private dementia health care industry afloat, for either yourself or your family members. I think that disqualifies you as a hoarder, too, and qualifies you as a generous citizen.
Catherine has it right. This original article is another example of poor economic journalism. The FED has been pumping trillions of dollars into huge corporations, and they're the ones who are sitting on it, not the average consumer. While it's a nice exercise to ask ourselves if we're hoarders or merely prudent, responsible people (with either the self-confidence or the delusion that we can save ourselves by ourselves), the actual ECONOMY is really being affected by the big asset-holding corporations, not the little folk.
Let us not also forget that that if you analyzed the actual velocity of money these days, you'd find that most of it is not due to the exchange of actual goods and services - it is the exchange of derivatives. Paper begetting paper assets of questionable actual value, in a grand game of hot potato. When the potatoes finally start dropping, holding a whole bunch of cash isn't going to help you, but having real value-producing assets will.
Did anyone see the news today that the ECB (European Central Bank) has decided its finally going to follow the FEDs example and start pushing money out to financial institutions/self-funding corps at zero interest? Looks like the ECB wants more hoarders on its side of the pond, so its going to start giving away money to corps just as the Fed is deciding that didn't really solve the problem, just kept it from getting worse.
ToomuchStuff
9-4-14, 5:28pm
I start with the premise, that I don't want to be a CONSUMER, but a CUSTOMER. The government looks at us as a bottomless ATM, they can just withdraw/tax money from. Companies should not be getting that idea, even though so many companies these days, are so merged into conglomerates, that they make more then some countries. (and could move their headquarters if they choose to, due to some countries policies)
Well, then, my dear bae, you are no longer a hoarder because you are about to spend your hundreds of thousands of dollars on our immensely over-inflated education system. (And according to the definition previously offered you never were one, because you had a specific purchase in mind.) So you can stop being defensive now - you're just a consumer like all the other good citizens. In fact, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on someone else's education probably qualifies you as a model consumer-citizen.
ETA: you too, IL - you'll be keeping the private dementia health care industry afloat, for either yourself or your family members. I think that disqualifies you as a hoarder, too, and qualifies you as a generous citizen.Disclaimer: I did not write this, and "Gwendolyn" is not just another of my monikers, here. (Hope that helps you some.) ( Thankk Mee.) However, from now on, I will be using parentheses excessively and inappropriately, as a tribute to some of my favorite posters here. (Just so you'll know.)
Disclaimer: I did not write this, and "Gwendolyn" is not just another of my monikers, here. (Hope that helps you some.) ( Thankk Mee.) However, from now on, I will be using parentheses excessively and inappropriately, as a tribute to some of my favorite posters here. (Just so you'll know.) It clearly wasn't you, it's full of paragraph breaks. :~)
Disclaimer: I did not write this, and "Gwendolyn" is not just another of my monikers, here.
How many monikers do you have here, Packy?
How many monikers do you have here, Packy?Wren, In answer to your question: I have 147 separate accounts. It keeps mee busy. You, (and Gwendolyn)are prolly the only other posters on this board. How do you like that? (That should keep the Mods busy for awhile.) Thankk Mee.
I'm Packy!
No, I'm Packy!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_qKa2joLqCho/RdNc5mj8lQI/AAAAAAAAAOo/Tmjj_nblwNU/s1600/spartacus.jpg
flowerseverywhere
1-31-15, 8:01am
What is a "substantial" amount of cash, according to Huffpo, in that lovely little class warfare hit piece?
I just looked - I have about $300k in cash-like vehicles sitting in an account I can write checks on.
Why?
Kid goes away to freshman year of college this year, no financial aid, I have to pay full freight.
So, I've been hoarding. Being a bad citizen by not buying cheap junk to "circulate" my money.
Hilariously, if I'd spent all my money instead of saving it, the university would have offered my daughter 100% aid.
My kids got some financial aid, but I considered myself lucky I had hoarded enough to give them a huge boost. I also picked up extra nursing shifts, and DH picked up extra work so they would have minimum debt.
Another family member bragged how her kids got 100% financial aid. Fast forward to graduation where her kids worried about how they would pay their enormous school loans. The 100% financial aid included lots of loans.
Now that I have grandkids instead of buying them clothes and toys manufactured abroad with cheap labor we are building up their 529's. People tell us we should not do that as it will hurt their financial aid chances. What are you talking about? Isn't the purpose of money to use it on what you feel is important, not to game the system? If there is financial aid it should go to people who really need it.
Articles like this only serve to undermine the philosophy that you don't have to drive fancy cars, eat out and have a house full of cheap junk to be happy. True happiness comes when you know you have done everything you can to help those you love reach their full potential, get the best care if they are ill and other things such as supporting charities or your community.
I'm Packy!
No, I'm Packy!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_qKa2joLqCho/RdNc5mj8lQI/AAAAAAAAAOo/Tmjj_nblwNU/s1600/spartacus.jpg
LOL, bae! :laff:
Yah, hah--Spartacus. Don't tell me you watch old (ca 1959) moovvees, with their obsolete and irrelevant ideas? You've got to watch nice, NEW moovveees, that deal with modern problems! That's progress. See? But, Kirk Douglas is still alive and as well as you can be at age 98. How do you like that? Thankk (Me. Hope that ) helps you kids some.
flowerseverywhere, I love and agree 100% with everything you just wrote here. Thanks for saying it so well.
Okay--and I agree with absolutely EVERYTHING EVERYONE says here-----its all true-----every word of it-----theres no such thing as hoarding money when it is ABSOLUTELY essential for each one of your kids to have a PhD in BASKETWEAVING---not from a school in podunk louisiana but a REALLY GOOD school with a top-ranked FOOTBALL program so that when they graduate and get that office job and spend their weekends relaxing and eating pizza they will have a REAL TEAM a REAL SCHOOL that as an ALUMNI they will be able to root for---scream their lungs out-----GO--GO---GO!!!--Go!!-(-while a 300lb thug runs twenty yards for that AMAZING DISPLAY of athletic prowess!!!) in front of the 150" big screen tv in the family room of their REAL $650k home on a hillside near Hasta La Vista Callyfornia and drive a REAL car---a---nice---clean---safe---new--Volvo with all the gadgets and safety features so they don't get hurt no matter how FAST AND COMPETITIVELY they go driving 40k miles a year commuting/ vacationing/ visiting you/ going out to EAT/ just getting around(hope that helps you some)(thank me)
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