View Full Version : pet peeve!!!
So I work in a city school district. I have accepted that it is different than the other places I have lived (mountain town, suburban, small town) and tried to watch for my own prejudices and assumptions. Dress is different, some ways of interacting, etc. But here it is, proper English. I work with English learners or people who use their neighborhood type dialect, but in many situations I find I have an expectation of proper English. The biggest thing that bugs me is "I seen". I had a great meeting with my new supervisor but it is hard that I was told I am pretty much un-promotable in a department with rampant poor English, and to have a supervisor saying "I seen", I hear it is totally acceptable in the urban area. I have lived so many places and it just isn't professionally acceptable where I have been.
Anyone every address this at work before? It is so touchy, there are many qualified people who use this and other phrases. I can't imagine any way to do a professional development on professional standards of communication in speech without being offensive. Or look for an opportunity to sell myself for advanced positions based on my correct English.
iris lily
9-24-14, 12:27am
I work in an urban environment of diverse employee backgrounds, and administrators and managers don't say "I seen." There might be supervisory level people who speak this way (custodial and maintenance guys come to mind) but it's not common.
I wouldn't give this a pass. But I'm not sure that I'd focus on it during a professional development session either, unless it is a brief mention.
My manager is a spelling, grammar, and mixed up word use train wreck. She sends out emails to customers that make me cringe, constantly. She also uses that stupid comic sans font. In purple. Verbally she's a mess, too.
I have a journalism degree and newspaper experience. As does another woman in the department. We are highly amused by what the manager comes up with when mixing up words.
iris lily
9-24-14, 12:34am
Oh my emails are full of misspellings, like my posts here. But mainly as a bad habit, I swear like a sailor. I lost interest in being promoted decades ago and simply don't care, and swearing is fun!
But "I seen" would grate on me. Still, some urban phrases are kinda fun.
Tell you what--I seen people say way worse stuff then that, and that ain't no joke!
I'm an English grammar nut with a background in linguistics. I simply remind myself that languages continually evolve; otherwise how would words like "baller" come to have a tertiary -- accepted --definition? :D
Miss Cellane
9-24-14, 6:40am
There's a difference between bad grammar and local usage. If everyone, included the educated folks, is saying "I seen," then I suspect one of two things. Either "I seen" is such a regional expression that everyone uses it and no one thinks anything of it, or that your manager is trying to fit in with the population that she serves, by trying not to sound educated, if that makes any sense?
I've been an English teacher and am now an editor. Trust me, I feel your pain. The most I've done, way back in the day when I had to type out my boss's letters from his rough copy, was to fix the grammar and spelling. He was appreciative of that. But I never attempted to fix his speech.
I'm sorry you were told that you are basically un-promotable. That stinks.
I would not bring this up. Your correct use of grammar is in front of them every time you speak or write. Those you would be trying to reach would not grasp it and those you dont want to reach would think you are trying to be superior. If you were in a higher or more secure position, you could try but perhaps not at your level.
My pet peeve: I have a husband (and his mother) who for 60 years has said "acrost" every single time they wanted to say "across". Nothing has or will change them.
I'm a stickler for good grammar too..........especially the wrong verb tenses. But.........sometimes I like to talk like a hick and say things wrong......and I might say them like that so often, that I have to be careful not to say them wrong when I'm in my own character. haha
For example, I had an old friend who said she had an old acquaintance who would refer to someone she thought was dumb as so "igranant". So my friend and I started saying 'ignorant' that way and after I while, I had to think how to say it right. hahaha
When I worked in the E.R., one of the nurses would take a tetanus shot to a patient and say "Okay, I have a tetnical shot for you."
And once a guy came up to the counter at the E.R. and said "I have pain in my 'tenacles'".
But I digress.............. I find it disconcerting when anyone uses bad grammar, but especially people in higher positions.
DD is very educated, but for the life of me, I can't get her to use pronouns correctly........Instead of something like "He and I".........she'll say "me and him". I try to correct her every time, but I don't think she hears me.............
To add..........Sometimes I do think "so what if grammar isn't perfect..........we still understand them, right?" Then I start wondering if correct grammar actually IS that important, and why?
I would just like to say that I speak much better than I write. I know my written grammar is horrid....sorry.
There are words that are like chalk on a blackboard. That "I seen" is one of them, along with "I axed" instead of "I asked".
Side question: Why do people hate comic sans? I'm not going to write a business email with it but I do use it in the church bulletin on some announcements, on occasion.
Zoe, do you have one kid left at home? It may be time to relocate if you want to find a job where you can advance. It seems like you've been told this same "un-promotable" speech quite a lot over the last few years. That has got to be demoralizing.
Thank you all, I am simply glad that I am not the only one who is bothered by 'I seen'. I am not going to correct anyone, correcting speech is much more sensitive than correcting written communication. However within education I feel we need high standards of speech to teach children. The other thing is that my site is increasing in affluence, rapidly. So the families would likely judge if my supervisor was out and used 'I seen' in a conversation with them without being and English language learner.
Float on, almost there! My baby is 17 now. I haven't updated the family stuff since I came back but he did take his GED, we are struggling with getting a job, and hopefully he will want to take college tests. I am mentally preparing myself in case there is an opportunity to move. We have a new 'accountability tracker' where I can keep track of all the work I have been doing to support a new job or to break this stupid 'un promotable' perception. I went through an intensive interview process where I was second in the end, so that means I am in the running for advanced positions overall.
goldensmom
9-24-14, 10:23am
Yes, 'I seen' bothers me along with 'irregardless' and 'snuck' which are not words but are now commonly accepted American speech. I try to not let it bother me with all the more important issues to be concerned about but when my husband says 'irregardless' I respond 'Really? Regardless, regardless.....then you must mean with regard'. Let's not talk about 'where's it AT!!!'. I spew back at the TV over that one. Yup, there are more important issues but I am glad there are kindred spirits out there.
I learned the hard way about "irregardless".........Some of my relatives started laughing at me once when I said it and corrected me. I've never said it wrong since.
Sorry Zoe Girl if I went off in an irrelevant direction!
They used to have that show, Beverly Hillbillies, right? They had that Miss Hathaway, Mr Drysdale's secretary? She was very good natured,I'll give her credit for that, but at the same time, sure was prim and proper when it come to speaking the Queens' English. Kinda funny, and I think it was supposed to be.
Maybe take a page from Rachel's thread elsewhere in this forum: just tally the "I seens" and do something nice for yourself every time you hear one or two dozen?
"I seen", only to be topped by "I done seen".
Teacher Terry
9-24-14, 3:54pm
I have lived in 5 different states & never had anyone say that. Some people from a certain region will use certain expressions. People in Milwaukee often use the word "bubbler" instead of drinking fountain & Wis people often say " will you borrow me $" instead of will you lend me $. When I lived in Kansas even very educated people pronounced the word"cement" like "seement"-they were good natured people I worked with so I would correct them & tease them & they would say that is the way we say it here.
Okay--now you kids got me started. How about people who, in expressing disdain and disinterest about a subject, say: " I could care less". Ha. Shows how stooped THEY are---grammatically it should be "I COULDN'T care less!" . But, you kids prolly awready knew that. Just showing you that I do, too. Example: Someone says "Those People in Ferguson set fire to their Teddy Bear Memorial" and the response is "I could care less", when it should be used with "Couldn't" or "could not", instead. See?
Working at the deli counter at a Wholefoods in a highly educated college town I have customers that call the Sonoma Chicken the "Samoa" chicken salad. Hearing all the different ways people say quinoa is pretty funny too, usually it comes out as Keen-o-wa or Kin-o-wa. I had a lady last week say how much she loved the Sweet Potato Scuffles (aka Souffle). Most of the time I roll with it, but I usually repeat back their order and say things the right way so they know for the next time. I wonder if people think that is rude, though? I grew up learning fairly proper English too. I also have a pretty big propensity for swearing though (not in front of customers)>
"I seen" would get to me, too.
How about less egregious grammatical anomalies, like, my MIL used to say "my shirt needs washed" instead of "my shirt needs to be washed." Not sure if that's a Scottish thing (Ishbel, can you weigh in?)
And then there's "Do you want to come with?" instead of "Do you want to come with me?"
They're not pet peeves exactly, but both of those examples still feel incorrect to me.
I first heard "do you want to come with" many years ago, and I remember waiting for the speaker to say the last word .."me" but she never did.
I think it's the crazy lazy way that our language is going - we are dropping words and syllables all over the place.
Some of the latest: "cray" for "crazy" or "gorge" for "gorgeous" Some of it's fun and I do appreciate people who are inventive with the spoken language, but it's seeing the written word lose all standards that's almost sad. Standards, people!
iris lily
9-24-14, 10:09pm
"I seen", only to be topped by "I done seen".
oooo, ouch! "I done seen" is far into hicksville. "I axed" is not very ghetto any more, it's a little mainstream here. But how's about "I done axed?" That's just awful on all levels!
"Do you want to come with?" is sort of cute.
"My shirt needs washed" is something I would totally say.
I used to say "my shirt needs washed"- grew up in Pittsburgh suburbs...moved to Maryland where I was corrected. Haven't said it ever again! Around here people use "ink pens" because pin and pen sound the same. I do hear ' I already done ate." I am easily irritated by the lack of _ly. Eat Healthy- not healthily. Go quick- not quickly. Drives me nuts. I am often adding -ly to the speakers on TV.
Good Idea Steve, I will give myself something like 20 minutes of reading anything I want in the middle of the day (I have a schedule that I flex the middle of the day so I am not 'cheating' to do this, I just keep trying to go home, hah!) for 10 horrible grammars (which is not correct).
So in this game do I get double points for a parent who uses f*** and sh*** to her kid in my building? I need to have that awkward conversation tomorrow. I think awkward or difficult conversations go straight to chocolate.
iris lily
9-24-14, 10:44pm
"I seen" would get to me, too.
How about less egregious grammatical anomalies, like, my MIL used to say "my shirt needs washed" instead of "my shirt needs to be washed." Not sure if that's a Scottish thing (Ishbel, can you weigh in?)
And then there's "Do you want to come with?" instead of "Do you want to come with me?"
They're not pet peeves exactly, but both of those examples still feel incorrect to me.
It's Scottish! The experts say:
Who says this?
Murray and Simon (2002) describe the rough boundaries as Western Pennsylvania, Eastern Ohio, Northern West Virginia, Central Indiana. Pockets of speakers might exist as far as Kentucky and Illinois. This construction is also attested in Scots English, which might be its historical source.
http://microsyntax.sites.yale.edu/needs-washed
but now that I'm thinking about it, I would more likely say "this needs washing" a much as "this needs to be washed."
It's mainly that "this needs washed" does not sound wrong to my ear. Maybe this is a legacy of my dear Scots ggg grampie
IshbelRobertson
9-25-14, 5:48am
Catherine, yes, that's Scottish!
I have always been surprised at the surprise people outwith Scotland show re 'outwith'!It appears to have been removed as correct grammar in all other English speaking countries!
goldensmom
9-25-14, 6:36am
Okay--now you kids got me started. How about people who, in expressing disdain and disinterest about a subject, say: " I could care less". Ha. Shows how stooped THEY are---grammatically it should be "I COULDN'T care less!" .
That's a funny one to me, Packy. When I hear someone say "I could care less" I usually respond (if I mean it) 'really, you could care less? I couldn't' and it usually goes unnoticed but I feel better.
Why did someone tell you that you were "unpromotable?" Because you don't speak the local slang? That is a terrible thing to say to an employee or a colleague. I am mad for your sake!
I agree completely with your point of view, I just think you should be really really careful about saying, writing, or doing anything that could be perceived as racially or socio-economically or culturally insensitive. Especially if people in supervisory positions are speaking incorrectly---stay away from it. I want you to protect yourself.
Catherine, yes, that's Scottish!
I have always been surprised at the surprise people outwith Scotland show re 'outwith'!It appears to have been removed as correct grammar in all other English speaking countries!
That makes perfect sense, since the Scots and Irish were major settlers in the American Southeast.
I think "I seen" is a regionalism; I rarely hear it around here, but I knew a woman from Kansas who used it regularly. And made me cringe.
Why did someone tell you that you were "unpromotable?" Because you don't speak the local slang? That is a terrible thing to say to an employee or a colleague. I am mad for your sake!
.
Not based on language at all, I was not considered ready for a job that came up because one aspect is that you need to have a background managing multiple sites succesfully, the job in between what I am doing and that job will come open when someone dies or retires, and the structure is changed so my level only manages one site so there isn't a way to build those in between skills. The discussion about not getting an interview did not give me steps to take to get where I wanted to be, and the person who talked to me about not getting an interview basically said she had to move to a new organization in order to move up. So it wasn't that I wasn't capable so much as there was not going to be opportunities where I was at.
rodeosweetheart
9-26-14, 11:51am
Interestingly, "ain't" was quite acceptable in upper class English speech in the 18th and 19th century, probably passing away in the late 19th century.. .
iris lily
9-26-14, 12:24pm
Interestingly, "ain't" was quite acceptable in upper class English speech in the 18th and 19th century, probably passing away in the late 19th century.. .
I remember seeing that in English novels representing 19th century speech!
There's a lot of "I seen/done" and "I have went" in my part of the world. I didn't grow up here so it stands out like a sore thumb to me. Drives me up the wall. Even the most educated and influential of people speak like this.
Another one here is saying "Me and Joe went..." or "This is a photo of Suzy and I"... learn the difference between subject and object!!!
As for "Do you want to come with?", do you think this structure may be derived from German? e.g. "Kommst du mit?"
My secretary has reformed me over the last 5 years. In rural ohio everyone says "where's that at?" I now say "where is that?" And now I cringe when someone else puts "at" at the end of a sentence. I talked this way, with a masters degree, never knowing it was wrong.
Change can happen after 50. :)
I went to a mediation training today and it was heaven! The training was excellent AND the trainer was excellent in her speech. Hardly any 'um', not one 'like' and accurate language that was presented to us as if we were very competent adults. So a sentence that stood out was "In relational mediation it would be best to do …" Rather than "when parties know each other and have to get along for a long time". Both sentences are fine however I felt so much better, so much SMARTER being addressed the first way. Then we spent a long time on the very careful writing styles that are important in writing mediation agreements.
A little off topic but I noticed that I simplify my language quite often around the people I work with and for.
My secretary has reformed me over the last 5 years. In rural ohio everyone says "where's that at?" I now say "where is that?" And now I cringe when someone else puts "at" at the end of a sentence. I talked this way, with a masters degree, never knowing it was wrong.
Change can happen after 50. :)
Yeah, that old ending-a-sentence-with-a-preposition faux pas. Classic. It can be awkward sometimes, trying to avoid it. There was some famous writer, either George Bernard Shaw or Mark Twain, whose editor chided him for ending a sentence with a preposition, and his response, reportedly, was "That's the kind of nonsense up with which I will not put."
iris lilies
9-27-14, 8:26pm
agreed, the ending-a-preposition thing is less egregious than saying "me and him." I will sometimes talk the preposition at end, seldom write it, and certainly not in formal writing situations which, granted, any more, are rare.
"At" was the only proposition with which I struggled. How odd. :)
ApatheticNoMore
9-28-14, 3:34am
Change can happen after 50. :)
oh so it finally becomes possible at that age (change that is)?
sorry that's how I actually originally read that sentence. Though reading it again, I suppose the more conventional assumption is that people mostly change (grammar or whatever I guess) when younger.
There's a lot of "I seen/done" and "I have went" in my part of the world. I didn't grow up here so it stands out like a sore thumb to me. Drives me up the wall. Even the most educated and influential of people speak like this.
Another one here is saying "Me and Joe went..." or "This is a photo of Suzy and I"... learn the difference between subject and object!!!
As for "Do you want to come with?", do you think this structure may be derived from German? e.g. "Kommst du mit?"
I think it is pretty much a regional thing how people speak, no matter what their level of education...
Stuff like this just doesn't matter to me as I get older. Bigger things in life to fret over, in my opinion. >8)
A wise person simplifies or adapts their own language and writing to match the audience they are trying to reach.
We had one woman I worked with who could switch from a high level professional perfect English to her own neighborhood's dialect (for lack of a better word) in the blink of an eye. She would explain the words to me (a coworker) because I had no clue regarding the dialect and use of certain words. She would not have been promoted to her level if she could not speak English perfectly because she was often a lecturer on various topics for the Federal Government.
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