View Full Version : Another ebola goof, imho
I just heard on the news that a doc who was treating ebola patients in Africa came back to NYC 10 days ago and didn't self quarantine and now he's in hospital with 103 fever. He rode a cab last night to a bowling alley. What the heck is wrong with these medical people??? They have no sense. And why wasn't he put in quarantine?
What is the protocol for quarantine when working with Ebola patients?
I work with patients with Hepatitis, AIDS, and all sorts of fluid-transmittable things and I don't have to quarantine as a regular thing, only if there are boo-boos.
Here they are:
http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/hcp/infection-prevention-and-control-recommendations.html
Did this doc violate those guidelines?
It's called common sense!
What's called common sense? Following the guidelines and if a booboo happens then self quarantining? Yes, I'd agree that that's common sense. Expecting every medical professional to assume that they have exposed themselves despite following the guidelines is not.
Let's face it: If you had been exposed to Ebola, would you rather sit home & wait for the onset of the disease, and the likelihood of a gruesome death; or would you rather go out and eat pizza(sausage, pepperoni, Canadian bacon, piled high with mozzzzerelllly Cheeeeese) and do some Bowling? Easy choice, right?
It's called common sense!
So, every time we respond to a patient with a fluid-borne disease, we should ignore the established protocols, and just quarantine ourselves, the ambulance, the chopper, the trauma center, the hospital, the .... - because of "common sense"???
Oh Bae..........yes, we know over and over that you work with AIDS, hepatitis, leprosy, burlap rickedy poopus, etc., etc.
And yes, I AM saying that it IS common sense if someone has been working with ebola patients they should self-quarantine for 21 days. It should be mandatory. I'm thinking that's what the new CDC rule even is.
Let's think about this.......This guy has been all over the place. The very night before his temp was 103, he rode in a cab, went bowling and who knows what else.
Now, many places have to be disinfected, Hazmat people are hard at work, hospital people are hard at work, the CDC team is hard at work, and who knows how many people are now at risk and are going to need to be "self-quarantined". All this money/resources because he didn't self-quarantine.
This is not hepatitis or Aids........this is a virus that can kill within days
.
You thought I was crazy for worrying about the guy who jumped the White House fence........and they ended up "letting go" the Secret Service chief because of this.
You disagreed with me when I had concerns over the way they were handling ebola in Texas and then everyone concerned (CDC especially) thought the same and changed the rules.
I'm starting to think I could say anything and you would disagree.
Give me a break...........this doctor had no common sense or concern for the others he put at risk, and now look at the mess he's created.
And I don't care how many links to "Protocol" you show me........if the behavior causes lots of problems for lots of people, then it's not a good protocol.
You're not the only one with medical experience bae. I just don't constantly bring it up.
Miss Cellane
10-24-14, 7:10am
I'm not so sure it would be possible to self-quarantine easily in most of the US.
I'm single, live alone. So the family/roommate problem wouldn't affect me. But let's say I'm a doctor (I'm not, just an example) who's been treating Ebola in Africa. I come home to the US.
My apartment has no food, because I've been gone for a month. There are no supermarkets in my area that deliver. How do I get food? Toilet paper? Remember, I'm stuck in my apartment for 21 days. Who is going to buy the food and bring it to me?
How am I earning an income while I'm in quarantine? Many doctors and nurses volunteer to go over to Africa to help. Will my regular employer pay me while I'm in quarantine? The volunteer organization I served with? Anyone? I still have rent or a mortgage to pay, bills to pay, food to buy, other on-going expenses.
And what if I get sick? Will all my possessions now be destroyed, because I was quarantined in my own home?
And where would someone with a family go for quarantine, because they sure couldn't go home and risk infecting their children/spouse/partner? Who will pay the hotel bill for that? Will the hotels allow someone to self-quarantine in their building?
Self-quarantine is a nice idea, but it is simply not practical. If we need to quarantine people, we have to have facilities for this. And right now, we really don't. And we need to decide who will foot the bill for the quarantine.
We also need to remember, though, that the night before he had the fever he was probably not emitting bodily liquids all over the place. Just like aids and hepatitis this disease is not transmitable except through bodily fluids. The difference from them and Ebola is that Ebola progresses to the point that the body ejects highly contagious fluids. It's not a coincidence that the only people in the US who have come down with it are medical workers who were in direct contact with very sick patients. By the time people are worryingly contagious they are likely too sick to be out bowling and such.
I understand what you're saying Miss Cellane. Hopefully, the CDC is smart enough to figure it all out, with the least amount of problems to everyone. Supposedly the virus only lives a certain amount of time on fomites, so if you were quarantined in your own home and ended up with an ebola diagnosis, I don't think they would have to destroy everything.....just let the apartment/home sit empty for a short time.
Staying in one's home for 3 weeks would be very stressful........so hopefully the CDC will come up with some answers to your questions about food, supplies, etc.
I would like some method of control that wouldn't lead to so much need for drastic measures when people realize that they have ebola symptoms. Let's think simplicity and lowest cost with the best results.
Once again, no one wants to be inconvenienced. Sh*t happens. Sometimes some have to be inconvenienced for the good of the whole.
We also need to remember, though, that the night before he had the fever he was probably not emitting bodily liquids all over the place. Just like aids and hepatitis this disease is not transmitable except through bodily fluids. The difference from them and Ebola is that Ebola progresses to the point that the body ejects highly contagious fluids. It's not a coincidence that the only people in the US who have come down with it are medical workers who were in direct contact with very sick patients. By the time people are worryingly contagious they are likely too sick to be out bowling and such.
I think the U.S. is new to all of this.........so what's wrong with an "abundance of caution"? And it doesn't take an infected patient squirting infected bodily fluids all over the place. For example.......an infected patient rubs his eyes, nose, mouth and then touches a railing in the subway......then the next person uses the railing and then rubs his eye, etc. That's how it can be transmitted.
My responses are not from my extreme fear/freaking out. It's from thinking (with a critical care R.N.'s eye) if things are being done as I know them to be the best way of dealing with things. And maybe some of you trust the CDC, local government, hospitals, etc.......but I don't always......and I don't think anyone should, without some reasonable, critical thinking and questioning.
Fair enough, but we also need to consider how long the virus lives outside the body. Once those fluids dry up my understanding is that the virus quickly dies. If that's accurate someone with an open wound, or at least a scratch on their skin, would have to come right behind the Ebola patient and touch that subway handrail to become infected.
But have you ever watched people and how often they touch their eyes/nose/mouth? All they would need to do is touch the handrail, and then one of those mucous-lined places and the virus would get in, even if they had no open sores on their hands.
The other thing is that he's not psychic. He didn't know he was getting a fever the next day, so of course he went about his life as usual. Hindsight 20/20 ....
We can't eliminate all risk to life.
Sounds like we need to make sure the health care workers are well trained so they don't get sick. Otherwise we'll be constantly having to train new workers in hazmat protocol and they'll be more likely to make mistakes due to inexperience causing a cycle of infections of health workers.
The other thing is that he's not psychic. He didn't know he was getting a fever the next day, so of course he went about his life as usual. Hindsight 20/20 ....
We can't eliminate all risk to life.
I'm thinking it's easier to deal with one person than all the people/cost/energy/resources that are spent after that one person isn't isolated for the appropriate amount of time.
Maybe the U.S. is so used to spending so much money and using so many resources that it just doesn't think any other way, than stomping out fires, rather than preventing them.
I actually see it exactly the opposite. Spend the money and time making sure that these workers are trained well enough to avoid getting sick rather than having to keep training new workers to replace the old ones who are now quarantined. For a complicated procedure like the hazmat protocol experienced people are undoubtedly far less likely to make mistakes than newly trained people.
JaneV2.0
10-24-14, 11:03am
I wouldn't have any trouble with self-quarantine, but I'm the exception. For anyone exposed who can sequester themselves, it makes sense to do so. I'm sure grocers in NYC deliver.
However, Ebola doesn't seem to be easy to transmit if you're not suffering uncontrollable leakage from various orifices--witness that none of Thomas Eric Duncan's friends or family were infected, nor hundreds of people at Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital. Just touching a contaminated surface doesn't seem to do it--it might even confer some immunity.
That would be great......if just getting a little of the virus would give immunity. I wonder how long it would last? Forever? And against any load of the virus?
I'm also hearing now that they first reported a 103.0 temp.....but that was a mistake. It was 100.3. That's a pretty big difference. I was wondering how he could go from feeling pretty okay to 103.0 over night.
He did say he was feeling sluggish a couple days ago. Normal temps can really vary between people. My normal is high 96's to 97's..........so when I'm 99.0 it usually means something.
Anyhow.....I'm glad they clarified it was 100.3.
How many cases of Ebola have been traced to transmission by people inside the USA?
How many health care workers in the USA following their protocols have been among the infected?
How many times has Kim Kardashian been married?
How many cases of Ebola have been traced to transmission by people inside the USA?
How many health care workers in the USA following their protocols have been among the infected?
How many times has Kim Kardashian been married?
Is there a prize?:~)
flowerseverywhere
10-24-14, 3:04pm
Should every health care worker in the hospital where these patients have been treated go into quarantine until 21 days after the infected person has been discharged or dies?
I don't know what the answer is. I'm referring mostly to the 3 medical people who came down with ebola. I can't remember which of the first 2 nurses did what, but one broke her self-quarantine. The other one, before 21 days traveled to OH and interacted with lots of people. And this doctor in NYC was treating ebola patients in Africa. I just read that he was told by Doctors without Borders that he didn't need to self quarantine.
What happened to people being checked when flying into the U.S. from Africa? Is it that hard to figure that out?
I don't know what the answer is. I'm referring mostly to the 3 medical people who came down with ebola?
Your original post when you started this thread was:
I just heard on the news that a doc who was treating ebola patients in Africa came back to NYC 10 days ago and didn't self quarantine and now he's in hospital with 103 fever. He rode a cab last night to a bowling alley. What the heck is wrong with these medical people??? They have no sense. And why wasn't he put in quarantine?
Did this doctor violate the published protocols? I asked, you redirected with an attack. I pointed you at the protocols even.
Why *should* he have been put in quarantine, if he was following the guidelines properly? Should anyone working with Ebola patients be quarantined, even if they are following the exposure guidelines? You offer up "common sense" as a reason they should, yet that doesn't seem very common-sensical.
He was asymptomatic until very recently. Therefore non-contagious, according to experts.
http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2014/10/23/ebola01_custom-b4938c0da0e29032eb52033e741c25458c9ab9d0-s4-c85.jpg
We'll just have to see how it all plays out.
Let me axe Mr Bae this hypothetical quession, sence he is an Ivy-League First Responder and Actuary: What are your chances, statistically, of survival if you were in a car accident in Monrovia after getting stung by a bee and on the way to the airport to take the first flight to the USA--on a Malaysia Airlines flight hit by lighting over shark-infested waters? And---the on-board meal was PIZZA--piping hot, pepperoni, sausage and Canadian bacon & piled high with ooooey-gooey mozzzerrellla cheese? Then, what would your odds be? Just Curious.
Let me axe Mr Bae this hypothetical quession, sence he is an Ivy-League First Responder and Actuary: What are your chances, statistically, of survival if you were in a car accident in Monrovia after getting stung by a bee and on the way to the airport to take the first flight to the USA--on a Malaysia Airlines flight hit by lighting over shark-infested waters? And---the on-board meal was PIZZA--piping hot, pepperoni, sausage and Canadian bacon & piled high with ooooey-gooey mozzzerrellla cheese? Then, what would your odds be? Just Curious.
Not enough information to develop a proper model. For instance, is celiac disease a potential issue, what with the pizza and all?
I still root for the Cleveland Indians, so there's *always* a chance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFTRwD85AQ4
flowerseverywhere
10-24-14, 8:09pm
Well many people cared for the first ebola patient. The hospital was totally unprepared and it does not look like experts who had experience dealing with the disease were on site. Despite following the protocols given to them two nurses were infected. All of the experts say before symptoms there is little risk of infection. No other person who treated this patient and subsequently these nurses has become symptomatic.
Common on sense is to follow the protocols, learn from the mistakes the Dallas hospital made. Now an experienced team is to be dispatched immediately to an infection site.
Here is scenario #2. If someone tests positive for ebola immediately quarantine any possible person who came in contact with them. Shut down the subway or airport. Evacuate every other patient from the hospital. Lock in all the workers. If necessary station armed forces to keep the people in. Ban all flights from anywhere overseas. Shoot to kill at the southern border or by sea anyone trying to get into the country as they might have made their way to the US through an alternate route. Close the Canadian border. Accept no produce, food, electronics or consumer goods from overseas. Close the ports.
Where is the line to be drawn as to what is common sense? Listen to the news hysteria or disease experts?
flowerseverywhere
10-24-14, 8:15pm
By the way, I worked in San Francisco as a nurse while they were figuring out Aids. There was all kinds of crazy going on. For an interesting story about aids read a very informative book by Abraham Verghese "my own country".
Perhaps some good good will come out of all of this coming to our shores. Vaccines and medicines are now on the fast track. Think of all the suffering that can be potentially avoided.
....so happy to hear that the 2 Dallas nurses are doing well!
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.