View Full Version : Ho Hum..........just another school shooting...............yawn.....
I'm surprised no one has brought this up. (The high school shooting in Washington). So far, 3 dead, 2 critical and 1 serious.
I'm just curious why? Is it because some of us feel guns are the problem and some feel they aren't and it's futile to even bring it up?
Is it because we're getting used to it? Is it because we feel so helpless against the NRA? Helpless against making any laws stick?
Just another insane thing here in the good old US of A.
I think we don't bring up every single instance because we're tired of the blame always being shifted to the tool and the NRA rather than the individual and the society that created the shooter.
Seriously, how many times must we have the same discussion.
ToomuchStuff
10-27-14, 9:56am
Alan, I don't know how to type the infinity symbol on the keyboard, but in politics, it must be brought up forever until the other side changes its mind.
Cathy, did you lose someone in it? I understand you wanting to talk about it if that is the case. Otherwise, we can't prevent what has happened and life carries on (not an extinction level event), talking about it won't change it or opinions on it.
I think we don't bring up every single instance because we're tired of the blame always being shifted to the tool and the NRA rather than the individual and the society that created the shooter.
Seriously, how many times must we have the same discussion.
I have to agree, at least round-aboutly. Our society is simply not ready to address the disease. Its too complex, its too ingrained, its stage 4 and has spread too far so its hopeless... And lord knows the political will isn't there to try to change things (stronger society ~ weaker government and all that rot). We really don't need to hash through the band-aids for easing the symptoms every time. We all know what they are.
No, I didn't lose anyone in it, but as a parent it strikes fear and sadness in my heart. Especially since this boy seemed normal and engaged.
I think it was the Sandy Hook slaughter (or one of the others) that I mentioned once, just to acknowledge it and the sadness of it. But then it took off as one of the ad nauseam arguments. I just find something very, very disconcerting and sad that it can't be mentioned on this type of forum........if only to acknowledge the tragedy.
I guess there are some things that will never be worked out......
I just don't want to become complacent....
Gregg.........I guess I'm close to that hopeless level. This society has so many problems that are so complex, I honestly don't see any hope for a lot of our problems. Yes, I try to live my life in a way I think would be better than how most people live, and have raised really great children, and love the earth, and try to be conscious of all of my choices, etc., etc.........but still, it's such a hopelessness for things beyond my family and yard. And what hurts a lot is thinking about the world we are leaving for our own children. At this point, there are no solutions. :(
Actually Alan......I hadn't heard from you in awhile and was pretty sure this topic would get you here. Nice to see you again! ;)
gimmethesimplelife
10-27-14, 11:28am
This may be a little off topic, and I don't have kids, either.....I am however of the opinion that if I did have kids, I would want to get them out of public education as quickly as possible and have them do as much as possible online from home. There just seems to be too much risk of some kind of bad outcome - and I don't mean just shootings, I'm talking more of bad life choices that can haunt kids as they get older and become adults - from being in the public school system.
This is really relevant to me as it was just a week ago that I went to my 30th high school reunion and since then I have been thinking a lot about my life mistakes and my life choices. I know in Arizona high school can all be done online which I think is absolutely wonderful and a saving grace for some kids but I'd like to see even lower grades just all online without the BS and pressures and toxicity that our youth are exposed to in public education.....Just my seventeen cents from having survived a pretty horrible middle school and high school experience - I wouldn't wish this on anyone. Rob
I have my own views on gun control, but honestly I don't think guns are the problem in this arena. The issue is, why there are so many people (comparative to say, 100 years ago) who feel a need / right / desire / compulsion to behave this way. What is it that makes a kid - or anyone else - enthralled with the idea of indiscriminate killing? I don't think we need more laws or more protection, that's bandaid medicine. In fact it's exactly the same mindset: we can make money controlling the symptoms and damage, so let's not worry about curing the patient. We need to understand and eliminate the underlying cause of the disease.
Is it because some of us feel ...
It's because some of us "feel" and some of us think.
We have hyper-emo kids with zip self-control, mixed (often) with psycho-active (often legal) drugs, add a dash of posturing, mix with bullying (or not), and ready access to guns, and Bob's your uncle--another school massacre. I will say that our great-grandparents likely had the same access to long guns, with few reported massacres. School killings get a lot of press, which doubtless contributes to the problem.
Why was my comment to Bae removed? Why can he be allowed to be such a arrogant jerk and I can't respond to it?
I will say that our great-grandparents likely had the same access to long guns, with few reported massacres. School killings get a lot of press, which doubtless contributes to the problem.
Examining the historical rate of these sorts of events proves quite interesting.
http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Analysis-of-FBI-Mass-Public-Shootings-Report1.pdf
iris lily
10-27-14, 1:27pm
Why was my comment to Bae removed? Why can he be allowed to be such a arrogant jerk and I can't respond to it?
Read the terms of service. In a nutshell you wrote a personal attack. Respond to arguments, not people--that's the central idea. Why don't you
re-frame your post using argument, not name calling?
Examining the historical rate of these sorts of events proves quite interesting.
http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Analysis-of-FBI-Mass-Public-Shootings-Report1.pdf
That was interesting. I wonder what the records would show if taken back another 50 years, or confined to attacks with no apparent motive (i.e. eliminate robberies and personal vendettas). Perhaps it is mostly media hype and our vastly connected world that makes it appear there are more incidents. I certainly feel the world is going more insane withe each passing year whenever I take a dip in the infostream.
Perhaps it is mostly media hype and our vastly connected world that makes it appear there are more incidents. I certainly feel the world is going more insane withe each passing year when I take a dip in the infostream.
I think our 24-hour news cycle, the flash-crowd nature of the blogosphere/twittersphere, the lack of critical thinking skills possessed by a large chunk of our population, and the complexity and noise of modern life have created a perfect storm of fear, anxiety, and knee-jerk reaction in the mob.
Who benefits?
So how is Bae's implying that I don't think not an attack? Just because he made it general?
So how is Bae's implying that I don't think not an attack? Just because he made it general?
My reply to you was a serious response, not an attack. There is a fundamental difference between people who process things by emotion, feeling, and intuition, and those who operate with fact and reason.
I made no judgment about which is valid - they *both* are, in different contexts. The context of violence and its remedies is a classic case where the difference in approaches leads to divergence of solutions, and inability to compromise.
Do you want charts and graphs and peer-reviewed studies on this?
Your perception of an attack is entirely within your own mind.
I think our 24-hour news cycle, the flash-crowd nature of the blogosphere/twittersphere, the lack of critical thinking skills possessed by a large chunk of our population, and the complexity and noise of modern life have created a perfect storm of fear, anxiety, and knee-jerk reaction in the mob.
Who benefits? O, now you opened a can of worms! Who indeed. We will buy anything, and do anything we're told, when we're scared.
My "feeling" personality has saved people's lives in my career. Maybe you should try a little more of it.
Maybe this reply will get removed too. Sometimes people spend way too much time in intellectuality, in order to feel better than others.
***MOD COMMENT - Emphasis mine. Personal attack removed, remainder of post left in tact. Please refrain from making derogatory personal comments. Feel free to contact me for further explanation or for a copy of the Forum Guidelines. Thank you. Gregg
Who benefits?
Always a revealing question, aye? While that 24 hour "news" cycle (almost) certainly doesn't facilitate such events, their ability to immediately capitalize on them is staggering. The fame the shooters garner through that channel has to be intoxicating for someone with the mindset that allows them to deliver such violence. And since fame is one of the drugs our society is most addicted to should that part of the equation be a surprise to anyone?
I've been reading an interesting book called The Vanishing Neighbor about how recent societal/cultural changes are impacting us - for the good and bad. The changes have been pretty drastic in the past few decades and their outcomes are now playing out. The author writes that most of us no longer have the middle layer of community we have had since founding this country, ie the village or township, that imparted a sense of trust and stability in our lives. Neighbors, familiar faces at the places we do business with, family friends, church, and on and on. People of different types that we interacted with on a daily basis and that looked out for each other. I find it interesting too that most of the public schools around here look like prisons. Barren, block buildings with no greenery. Perhaps we will look back someday and realize what a bumpy time this was before we adjusted to the new realities.
Always a revealing question, aye? While that 24 hour "news" cycle (almost) certainly doesn't facilitate such events, their ability to immediately capitalize on them is staggering. The fame the shooters garner through that channel has to be intoxicating for someone with the mindset that allows them to deliver such violence. And since fame is one of the drugs our society is most addicted to should that part of the equation be a surprise to anyone?
That brings me back to my original thought: where is that mindset coming from, and, considering Bae's fact link, is it really more prevalent than it once was?
I think the media whomping up hysteria (as in bae's example above) goes a long way in making it easy for the government to further abridge our rights. Just as the hysteria around 9-11 allowed the Patriot Act to be rubber-stamped. I don't agree that we have too many rights--quite the opposite.
iris lily
10-27-14, 1:59pm
Why was my comment to Bae removed? Why can he be allowed to be such a arrogant jerk and I can't respond to it?
Well, I can think of at least one way to respond using argument, maybe more, that isn't in the TOS rule breaking arena of "Jane-you-ignorant-bitch." I'll bet that you can, too.
I've been reading an interesting book called The Vanishing Neighbor about how recent societal/cultural changes are impacting us - for the good and bad.
I also found these two books on related topics interesting:
Putnam's "Bowling Alone" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone
David Beito's "From Mutual Aid to the Welfare State: Fraternal Societies and Social Services, 1890-1967"
Any evidence I have is purely anecdotal, but it certainly FEELS like there are more incidents such as school shootings than there were in the past. It also feels like the rise in numbers is disproportionately larger than the rise in population. Whether true or not, this may be a case where the perception is as important as the reality for describing both the motivation of the media and the anxiety of the society.
Well, I can think of at least one way to respond using argument, maybe more, that isn't in the TOS rule breaking arena of "Jane-you-ignorant-bitch." I'll bet that you can, too.
"Ignorant slut," to be precise. :D
I often wonder how violent video games and the way teens become addicted to them figure into all of these shootings? What are your thoughts? And, all of the parents with guns, should we keep the cabinets locked? We don't at our house, but should we?
And, all of the parents with guns, should we keep the cabinets locked? We don't at our house, but should we?
In our household, where everyone knows how to properly use firearms, and where my daughter has been shooting since she was 6 years old, every firearm that is not in immediate use is locked up in a vault at all times.
Prevents theft, keeps random visitors to the house from gaining access, provides fire protection, ...
Yes, you should keep the cabinets locked. It's unlikely your children are homicidal, but it's extremely likely they're curious little kids.
I do wonder if all the media - games, movies, and the incredible prevalence of stories about 'people' who can't die, be they vampires, zombies, super heroes or just the protagonist in more or less every hollywood movie made - contributes to desensitization. The other day I watched some silly cooking "reality" show, and one of the participants had been shot and it was a really big deal to him, getting beyond it was his whole motivation for winning the prize. I was startled with my first reaction, which was 'seriously, it was that big a deal?' Then my rational mind took over and said of course, yes, for the individual in question, it's a HUGE deal, being shot is not a normal part of most people's lives, but that first random thought was weird.
Still, I don't know where we go from desensitized to actually ok with personally, purposely committing lethal acts against random human beings who represent something negative to us.
Gardenarian
10-27-14, 2:37pm
It's because some of us "feel" and some of us think.
I hope most of us do both!
gimmethesimplelife
10-27-14, 2:41pm
I hope most of us do both!Once again, Thanks for your post, Gardenian. I couldn't agree more. Rob
I guess I haven't had the radio on the last few days. I hadn't heard about this latest school shooting until today. I think there are as many reasons as there are cases. I can't lump them all together.
ApatheticNoMore
10-27-14, 3:01pm
I mostly think of that old popular science book "Descartes Error", when people have damage to the emotional parts of their brain, they can't actually think very well at all. So you can't separate thinking from emotion entirely.
Maybe I'm just an old lady now, but the few times I've been flipping through channels lately I've been very shocked at the level of violence portrayed in weekly dramas that would have been unthinkable in the past.
Maybe I'm just an old lady now, but the few times I've been flipping through channels lately I've been very shocked at the level of violence portrayed in weekly dramas that would have been unthinkable in the past.
I occasionally think to myself, "this is really just a venue to show as much killing as possible." Maybe we should be glad we have TV and not coliseum events.
I occasionally think to myself, "this is really just a venue to show as much killing as possible." Maybe we should be glad we have TV and not coliseum events.
Its all bread and circuses (says the conspiracy theorist within).
This may be a little off topic, and I don't have kids, either.....I am however of the opinion that if I did have kids, I would want to get them out of public education as quickly as possible and have them do as much as possible online from home. There just seems to be too much risk of some kind of bad outcome - and I don't mean just shootings, I'm talking more of bad life choices that can haunt kids as they get older and become adults - from being in the public school system.
I don't think its unreasonable to believe that kids benefit from social interactions with other kids. They even learn things from the negatives (what? there's consequences?). All three of my kids did. There are also a few people that will argue that maximizing screen time has physical as well as emotional downsides. I don't know about the latest case, but it seems several of the school shooters in recent years were more prone to spending a lot of time alone and often a lot of that was online. Another purely anecdotal case, of course, but you don't hear much about mass killings in cultures that are connected in ways that don't involve technology.
I haven't listened to any news yet today, but it is odd that this kid didn't seem to feel like an outcast..........He was a "prince" at Homecoming and seemed to have friends. I did hear that he was upset about a relationship gone bad, and wanted to leave (die), and take his friends with him. He was sitting at the lunch table with his friends when this happened.
I would like to know more about him........if he was on any prescription drugs, was he happy at home, etc. Maybe kids that young don't truly understand death and the finality of it. I just don't know. Or what makes a young person snap like that. This case seems different than the others with regard to his seemingly being fairly happy with friends. That reason being presented (his wanted to take his friends with him), seems like a possibility, since his grandfather said that 2 of the boys he killed were great friends......like brothers.
Two of the boys targeted were the shooter's cousins, not just friends.
I often wonder how violent video games and the way teens become addicted to them figure into all of these shootings?
I wonder about that too as I try to control my grandson's time playing video games. But then again:
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a0/bf/0d/a0bf0de2f2ddee32b266f461fd353054.jpg
awakenedsoul
10-27-14, 8:35pm
Gardenarian, Touchee!
CathyA, I am alarmed by all of the school shootings, as well. I don't normally read anything on the Public Policy Forum, because of the favoritism and inconsistent moderation. One person gets away with breaking the rules for years, yet another is "corrected" for standing up for themselves. I've mentioned it in a PM to the moderators.
I had an experience where some newbie prepper guy was putting me down for not storing enough water in an emergency. I confronted him, and my post was deleted by Gregg. (His post remained, but he never posted again...) The poster was treating me the same way you've been treated. Some people think that's okay. I don't.
Anyway, I agree with you. I've noticed that you have been quoted and jeered at like you don't know what you are talking about when you have a professional background in ER. It doesn't surprise me. I actually expect it. When a person does that, it says more about them than about you. Some people thrive on conflict. They are combative. No coincidence they are drawn to combat in their careers. Maybe it's part of their soul...a way to use their talents.
I've been riding the bus with the kids lately. They seem really happy and friendly with each other. It's nice to see, since I hear the worst of everything on the news. These are tumultuous times. I try to focus on the good and discipline my mind. Art can give us hope and inspiration. I hope you find some. I am not a mother, but I also find this all very shocking and dismaying.
And now I am gone from the Public Policy Forum, for obvious reasons...
I'm surprised no one has brought this up.
I'm find myself surprised when another is surprised that a topic they are interested in was not brought up. If you are interested, just start the thread:-)
ToomuchStuff
10-28-14, 12:53am
This may be a little off topic, and I don't have kids, either.....I am however of the opinion that if I did have kids, I would want to get them out of public education as quickly as possible and have them do as much as possible online from home. There just seems to be too much risk of some kind of bad outcome - and I don't mean just shootings, I'm talking more of bad life choices that can haunt kids as they get older and become adults - from being in the public school system.
This is really relevant to me as it was just a week ago that I went to my 30th high school reunion and since then I have been thinking a lot about my life mistakes and my life choices. I know in Arizona high school can all be done online which I think is absolutely wonderful and a saving grace for some kids but I'd like to see even lower grades just all online without the BS and pressures and toxicity that our youth are exposed to in public education.....Just my seventeen cents from having survived a pretty horrible middle school and high school experience - I wouldn't wish this on anyone. Rob
Staying out of the school system and home schooling isn't always an answer. I know a few who have home schooled, and not all have social skills, or views that incline them to gain them.
Where I was born, we moved due to school violence in elementary schools (kids were carrying knives etc.). Yet growing up, I was around my parents generation enough that you learned kids made guns in school (back in the 50's), people had rifles in their vehicles during hunting season, a knife was a tool you always carried (even scouts taught this), etc. Learned more about the ammo plant that is local, from someone whose family used to supply the bullet molds, and as a kid he had access.
Responsibility can be taught, but that doesn't mean someone can't reject it as well, or is always responsible. In the district I moved to, by the time I graduated, I had had a knife to my throat, a pistol to my stomach (both in school) and a rifle to my temple (out of school, "friend" set something up where I was moved into a trap he set). We also had a kid who died at the school, from a single punch. He had medical issues and he was mouthing off, because he thought no one would touch him and everybody knew.
It doesn't take a weapon to kill someone, heck among kids around my generation, the Anarchist Cookbook as well as some old military manuals, were common.
I know what it is like to wish the school burned to the ground, but I also knew about death and abuse/killing etc.
My "feeling" personality has saved people's lives in my career. Maybe you should try a little more of it.
Maybe this reply will get removed too. Sometimes people spend way too much time in intellectuality, in order to feel better than others.
Thank you for the laugh. Irony, thinking that using their head instead of heart, is all about heart stuff (emotions).
If I were to base a statement like that on what I know, people spend time intellectually to not make the mistakes of/become like those who act/react emtionally on wants and needs. But that statement wouldn't be true either, just in the cases I am aware of (no statistics to prove either).
Allen, did you ever play cowboys and indians or soldier? While less physically active, the main difference I see is the gore level and some games you can adjust that on.
I'd be more apt to include music then video games.
Ohio, by CSNY
I hate Monday's by the Boomtown rats
One I hear a lot of people sing, without knowing what it is about:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3ldsF65cLM
Pumped up Kicks by Foster the People
ApatheticNoMore
10-28-14, 2:51am
Staying out of the school system and home schooling isn't always an answer. I know a few who have home schooled, and not all have social skills, or views that incline them to gain them.
there is no one answer on best ways to school (of the options available in the modern world anyway!). I mean home schooling might be best with truly optimal parents who have the time and money to do it, in an very functional family, and who make sure their kids gain social skills and experience through other activities etc.. But back in the real world many parents won't be optimal. And even those carrying out family patterns of addiction etc. in their families will be convinced they are ideal parents (denial).
And some kids will go to school and not get social skills because they mostly experienced teasing and bullying in school. And some kids (not as many because home schooling isn't that common) will be kept out of school in bad family situations where 6 hours a day or more away from the crazy home would have done them a world of good (although I think school very rarely overcomes a bad family situation - but it can be a *break* from it for some).
Irony, thinking that using their head instead of heart, is all about heart stuff (emotions).
If I were to base a statement like that on what I know, people spend time intellectually to not make the mistakes of/become like those who act/react emtionally on wants and needs. But that statement wouldn't be true either, just in the cases I am aware of.
Yea it can be. Some have also proposed as a ideal that both be well developed (Fromm's capacity to love and think (critically) for instance). Hmfp, an ideal. But one can't go through life afterall terrified one's Meyers Briggs type might change :~) , as shifts are usually attempts to overcome the limitations of the prior type.
I hate Monday's by the Boomtown rats
well I always interpreted that as being more about suicide than murder (nope never watched the vid). And I've belted it out! In the car, driving to work etc. Because it's the perfect start of a workweek anthem afterall.
Tussiemussies
10-28-14, 7:33am
I think the media with all of it's violence and not enough time at home in a loving environment, since so much emphasis is placed on what you are doing with extra curricular activities and other ones. Recently my nephew, who is a freshman in high school went to a party where there were senior football players that were punching holes in the wall, throwing bottles in the pool and the first version of what I heard was that they were doing cocaine. I think everyone here has heard about what happened with the senior vs freshman football team in Sayreville, NJ. There is a lack of caring and empathy for others...Just my opinion...
ToomuchStuff
10-28-14, 10:10am
well I always interpreted that as being more about suicide than murder (nope never watched the vid). And I've belted it out! In the car, driving to work etc. Because it's the perfect start of a workweek anthem afterall.
The video was Pumped up Kicks, but the Boomtown Rats is probably a perfect song for this whole conversation:
"Tell me why,
I don't like Monday's
What reasons do you need to die"
And the song is about a 1979 shooting where a girl opened fire at kids at an elementary school, across the street. (also shows that girls can cause school shootings)
I don't normally read anything on the Public Policy Forum, because of the favoritism and inconsistent moderation. One person gets away with breaking the rules for years, yet another is "corrected" for standing up for themselves. I've mentioned it in a PM to the moderators.
I had an experience where some newbie prepper guy was putting me down for not storing enough water in an emergency. I confronted him, and my post was deleted by Gregg. (His post remained, but he never posted again...) The poster was treating me the same way you've been treated. Some people think that's okay. I don't.
Emphasis mine. Its an oldie, but a goodie. The forum guidelines are clear. If someone stirs the pot, infers, projects or otherwise baits another poster, but does not personally attack them the post will remain. We're not in the censorship game here, there are no teacher's pets and moderation has nothing to do with how anyone is being treated. This isn't a court of law and the mods aren't judge and jury. Moderation exists only to help maintain a minimum level of civility by limiting personal attacks. If you (the collective you) feel you're being mistreated either step away or find a way of dealing with it that's a little more clever than name calling because that is against the community's accepted rules.
Even though it's not in the rulebook..........I find it offensive that some can cloak their put-downs/insults with 50 cent words and images that imply the insult and don't come out and say it out loud....then when they're called on it, they can make up another definition of what they said. Oh well......rules are rules are rules. I'll try to follow them, even though some people actually deserve emotional feedback on their behavior.
Oh well......rules are rules are rules. I'll try to follow them, even though some people actually deserve emotional feedback on their behavior.
I think emotional feedback on other's behavior is often a good thing, although it's always better to say "I disagree with you because....." rather than saying "I disagree with you and you're a jerk." The former requires no moderation while the latter clearly violates guidelines. It's simple really.
gimmethesimplelife
10-28-14, 11:52am
there is no one answer on best ways to school (of the options available in the modern world anyway!). I mean home schooling might be best with truly optimal parents who have the time and money to do it, in an very functional family, and who make sure their kids gain social skills and experience through other activities etc.. But back in the real world many parents won't be optimal. And even those carrying out family patterns of addiction etc. in their families will be convinced they are ideal parents (denial).
And some kids will go to school and not get social skills because they mostly experienced teasing and bullying in school. And some kids (not as many because home schooling isn't that common) will be kept out of school in bad family situations where 6 hours a day or more away from the crazy home would have done them a world of good (although I think school very rarely overcomes a bad family situation - but it can be a *break* from it for some).
Yea it can be. Some have also proposed as a ideal that both be well developed (Fromm's capacity to love and think (critically) for instance). Hmfp, an ideal. But one can't go through life afterall terrified one's Meyers Briggs type might change :~) , as shifts are usually attempts to overcome the limitations of the prior type.
well I always interpreted that as being more about suicide than murder (nope never watched the vid). And I've belted it out! In the car, driving to work etc. Because it's the perfect start of a workweek anthem afterall.I think you are dead on about the schooling thing, ANM.....it isn't one size fits all. Some of my wish to pull kids out of public education is because I myself was so bullied and tormented for being gay and obviously different back in the day - I would not want my kids (if I had any) to be subjected to bullying or heaven forbid participate in bullying. So yeah I'm projecting some of my experience onto my hypothetical kids. And I do think some social interaction with other kids is a good thing - in Arizona online only schools there are activities the kids can participate in with other kids face to face so they do have some interaction but not that catty interaction of what they are wearing, whose hanging out with who, you know, the whole high school hierarchy thing. Not everyone is good at surviving those BS high school games. I wouldn't want any kids of mine subjected to that, but I would want them to have some social interaction with other kids, too. I guess if my kids truly hated the online format, I would bend and put them in public school on a trial basis and see how that went.....Rob
ApatheticNoMore
10-28-14, 12:23pm
I didn't find anything offensive about Cathy's second post that was censored and can't fathom why it was. The first post that was censored, I didn't even see it before it was censored.
Okay Alan.........I'll try. I'll practice in front of the mirror..........although I might make faces while I'm saying it the "right" way. :~)
Read the terms of service. In a nutshell you wrote a personal attack. Respond to arguments, not people--that's the central idea. Why don't you
re-frame your post using argument, not name calling? Yes, but wee would sure like to see the personal attack! After all, "drama" is entertainment. That's what Tee-Vee and Moovvees deliver, like piping hot pizza. Well, isn't it? As for the "Yosemite Sam" character that Alan made his point with, it was introduced into the Warner Brothers' series of cartoons in the 1950's. Kids at that age are now 50-60-70 years old. I believe the character was a parody of the reactionary, gun-nut types that you still find in the hills and dales of America. It ridicules the type of person whose first reaction in negotiating & resolving conflict is to grab their gun. Also, they had the overzealous hunter Elmer Fudd, who was a dunce. Believe me, as a resident of this area, there are plenty--a whole lot of "Yosemite Sam" & "Elmer Fudd" types around, in the generation that grew up with those TV programs. But, I will offer this: that the likely effect of Sam's irresponsible cartoonish behavior and influence was to further polarize the viewers as they became adults--they either moved farther to the "left" or the "right", insofar as their position on guns in the hands of citizens. Now do you see?
The thing about going to school as a juvenile is not just A-B-C's and GW chopping down the cherry tree & not telling his Dad (GHW) a lie. And how Reggan ended The Evil Empire & brought prosperity. No, it is also supposed to be about Socialization---functional training during your formative years. Adjusting to the stress of an interactive, competitive situation. In some cases, home schooling may be the best option. But not usually. Let me use an analogy: if kittens are not handled by a human within a month or so of birth, they will be feral. See? I suggested to BAE that he homeschool his daughter, instead of sending her to Princeton, and save a LOT of money. Plus, it would spare her from hurtful rejection by other people and exposure to other risks. But, no one chose to respond. I'd guess "they" thought it absurd. Just my point. My view on school shootings is that teens are VERY impressionable and the result is---media hyper-coverage influences a few of them to excess, and we have what seems like an epidemic of mass murders by students. It's front-page news, every time. Most juveniles have a limited perspective on real consequences; that is why they make the best soldiers and worst drivers. Some of them have not learned to cope with life's unfairness. With over 300 million people in the USA, something really bad is happening 24-7, somewhere. Just like people are winning the Lottery, everyday, too. These events are all reported immediately by electronic media, perpetuating the syndrome. You can't just blame the NRA, make them the scapegoat; there are other issues that need to be addressed. That's my theory, anyway. Seriously. I want to make it clear that I am not a firearms enthusiast, either.
I think you are dead on about the schooling thing, ANM.....it isn't one size fits all. Some of my wish to pull kids out of public education is because I myself was so bullied and tormented for being gay and obviously different back in the day - I would not want my kids (if I had any) to be subjected to bullying or heaven forbid participate in bullying. So yeah I'm projecting some of my experience onto my hypothetical kids. And I do think some social interaction with other kids is a good thing - in Arizona online only schools there are activities the kids can participate in with other kids face to face so they do have some interaction but not that catty interaction of what they are wearing, whose hanging out with who, you know, the whole high school hierarchy thing. Not everyone is good at surviving those BS high school games. I wouldn't want any kids of mine subjected to that, but I would want them to have some social interaction with other kids, too. I guess if my kids truly hated the online format, I would bend and put them in public school on a trial basis and see how that went.....Rob
Instead of encouraging kids who were/are bullied or otherwise marginalized to drop out of the traditional venues why don't we focus on the bullies? There is a cause to that behavior that we should be smart enough to address. I've been blessed to have a lot of kids running through my life and have never seen any naturally gravitate toward bullying behavior, kids get pushed to that somehow. Getting to the root cause there should be the lowest common denominator. Once that's done all the other problems would be solved (no one gets bullied if there are no bullies). But its absolutely un-American to look for root causes, isn't it?
ApatheticNoMore
10-29-14, 12:14pm
But its absolutely un-American to look for root causes, isn't it?
I think some of it like why do people shoot up schools is just too broad a question to have an answer to without a very broad base of study in that subject (criminology, sociology, anthropology, psychology - and not just some general knowledge of the fields which is all well and good, but study in that particular question). If one doesn't have any intuitive access to that behavior because one would never do such a thing, and would be strongly morally blocked from it from the start then .... uh good that one has those restraints, but it's puzzling. And it's not a very pleasant topic for most to think about why people do it.
What one can discern without all that is that's it's very obvious this society is messed up and no wonder people get messed up in it, it's amazing far more don't. A society that seems to mostly value money above all (at least on the surface level. Deep connections with other people or inner grounding might counter the surface level), well what could possibly go wrong .... besides you know absolutely everything.
Now bullying isn't shooting up a school (though it might push others along that path), but there's many forms of bullying. There's beating the @#$# out of people, and there's subtle teasing mean girls bullying. I frankly find it hard to imagine a junior high where at least the latter isn't going on. I don't know what causes all bullies although at least it's a more narrow question. I figure there's often violence at home (but does this cross some anti-american line, what people do in the privacy of their homes?). And I also figure most school staff are probably too overwhelmed to play the mock extended family/community/social worker/psychologist role in full.
I think a big problem is that a lot of parents aren't really the ones raising their own children. We need so much in this society that both couples need to work, just to keep up. And the kids are also being raised on TV shows/movies/etc., that aren't good. It almost seems like people have children, but then don't really get involved in their lives.
I'm not bragging......just mentioning something interesting that my DD told me. She told her friends (mid-late 20's) that she tells me things, let's me know what's going on her life, who her friends are, where she's going, etc. They just couldn't believe that she told us so much. I guess they are hardly ever in contact with their parents. I think this is fairly common.
I just wonder, these kids who shoot-up schools..........what kind of relationship did they have with their parents? Did their parents have a clue? I doubt it.
I wonder about that too as I try to control my grandson's time playing video games. But then again:
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a0/bf/0d/a0bf0de2f2ddee32b266f461fd353054.jpg
we were watching a few hours a week vs hours per day with the kids now being the shooters in video games. Just throwing it out there, no idea if this is a factor. Also aware that not all kids are hooked on the violent video games.
we were watching a few hours a week vs hours per day with the kids now being the shooters in video games. Just throwing it out there, no idea if this is a factor. Me neither, but I tend to doubt it. I do know that in the late 50's and early 60's, when westerns and gunplay pretty much dominated the airwaves, I had my share of low slung gunbelts and cap guns and spent a lot of time practicing my quick draw and shooting at my friends, pets, birds, anything that moved. And it wasn't just me, all my friends did as well. We also spent a lot of time with our BB guns and throwing knives and hatchets, just like Mingo (Ed Ames) on the Daniel Boone show. We emulated what we saw on TV in our everyday play and probably spent just as much time as today's avid game players engaged in make-believe violence.
I think there's something else at play.
Me neither, but I tend to doubt it. I do know that in the late 50's and early 60's, when westerns and gunplay pretty much dominated the airwaves, I had my share of low slung gunbelts and cap guns and spent a lot of time practicing my quick draw and shooting at my friends, pets, birds, anything that moved. And it wasn't just me, all my friends did as well. We also spent a lot of time with our BB guns and throwing knives and hatchets, just like Mingo (Ed Ames) on the Daniel Boone show. We emulated what we saw on TV in our everyday play and probably spent just as much time as today's avid game players engaged in make-believe violence.
I think there's something else at play.
Saturday mornings...........Gene Autry or Roy Rogers! had to get up early and we were ready. This was in the early 60s. Good Times
I'm sure there are myriad reasons why these things keep happening but sometimes things are overlooked. Could these mostly males be afflicted with some sort of head injury, disease state (autism), etc that propels them to look at their world differently and react inappropriately? Perhaps something that did not exist in previous days?
I sometimes wonder if humans are running their course, and it will be downhill from here (in terms of more people not having the greatest of brains).
I wonder if this recent shooter was put on any meds recently. Sometimes certain antidepressants and ADHD drugs can make you suicidal or intensely angry.
Yeah, I know. It's a mystery, isn't it! It's kind of like my friend who can't for the life of her understand why her kid is gaining so much weight and becoming unhealthy. She says to me...
"I just don't understand it. I put the Twinkies on the high self but he still gets them. The cookies are in the cookie jar, out of sight, but he still goes through them faster than a speeding bullet. After I go to the store, it only takes him a few days to go through 3 bags of chips, 4 boxes of ding dongs, a jumbo bag of candy bars and every box of cocoa puffs in the house! And when I bake 2 dozen cupcakes on the weekend, he eats every single one! I don't know what to do!"
Yeah, it's such a mystery why people keep showing up with bullets in their bodies. Can't imagine how they get there. Must be the video games, right?
What I remember of the old movies and TV shows is that people operated on some basic principles of moral behaviour that we tried to emulate and out parents tried to promote as well. Are our heroes of today more self-centred and narcisstic for all generations?
Yeah, it's such a mystery why people keep showing up with bullets in their bodies. Can't imagine how they get there. Must be the video games, right?If I had to take a firm yes/no, I'd say no. I think Razz has the gist of it.
Lots of folks try to put the blame on guns, but if that were the case we would have had more school shootings back in my day. There were always 30 to 40 guns in the parking lot, I think it just never occurred to anyone to use them on their classmates.
What I remember of the old movies and TV shows is that people operated on some basic principles of moral behaviour that we tried to emulate and out parents tried to promote as well.
What I remember of the old movies and TV shows is that people operated on some basic principles of moral behaviour that we tried to emulate and out parents tried to promote as well. Are our heroes of today more self-centred and narcisstic for all generations?
+1 In the olden days only the bad guys shot anyone without a 'good reason'. Then the good guys only shot the bad guys, and even then only after the bad guys first tried to shoot them. Oversimplified as a snapshot of society's virtues, sure, but I also think there is something to having some kind of basic compass present. Its not that the entertainment of today, with the nearly infinite string of guys you need to kill just because they're on the other team, will cause most people to snap. It won't. But at the same time it seems naive to assume that the input is completely without effect.
ApatheticNoMore
10-29-14, 7:03pm
Yeah, I know. It's a mystery, isn't it! It's kind of like my friend who can't for the life of her understand why her kid is gaining so much weight and becoming unhealthy. She says to me...
"I just don't understand it. I put the Twinkies on the high self but he still gets them. The cookies are in the cookie jar, out of sight, but he still goes through them faster than a speeding bullet. After I go to the store, it only takes him a few days to go through 3 bags of chips, 4 boxes of ding dongs, a jumbo bag of candy bars and every box of cocoa puffs in the house! And when I bake 2 dozen cupcakes on the weekend, he eats every single one! I don't know what to do!"
That's a very simplified example. Obesity in the modern world, everywhere there is sufficient calories, is precisely such a mystery, clearly there is a calorie excess but what causes the overeating?
Clearly people get killed with guns (although occasionally with other things) but this probably also needs to be combined with a badly dysfunctional society to lead to the mass killings it does in the U.S.. But then things like chronic war-making would serve as condemnation enough of the culture even if there were no mass shootings. And then your back to: why are some societies so violent?
And I'm really not convinced there is any guarantee that people wouldn't get guns even if they were illegal (nor of course would I expect the law to be enforced equally, not if drug laws are any example). When I talked about different ways of approaching the issue though I can't say I'm strongly convinced of any video game theories as the cause, though it would be hard to argue graphic gore was *good* for people but saying it makes mass murders takes a little more than that.
Maybe it has to do with the media today, the instant attention?
Maybe it has to do with the media today, the instant attention?
That certainly seems to play a part in at least some of the shootings. There are several instances of these kids leaving behind messages with themes like "I'll show them" or "now they'll notice me" or even "now I'll be famous". It just makes a tragic situation even sadder when you think about it.
pinkytoe
10-30-14, 10:16am
How about that our society has become extremely impulsive about everything? Remember the marshmallow experiment with kids, where some kids maintained self-control and did not eat them as instructed but others did the minute the adults left the room? Studies show that those same kids who stifled their impulsive urges did not fall prey to things like unwanted pregnancies, unfinished educations, crime etc. Little self control for lack of a better word...thinking about what the outcome might be before following through.
ApatheticNoMore
10-30-14, 12:34pm
If it's premeditated as such killings seem to be far more often than not (whole plans in many cases), then it's not an impulse.
That certainly seems to play a part in at least some of the shootings. There are several instances of these kids leaving behind messages with themes like "I'll show them" or "now they'll notice me" or even "now I'll be famous". It just makes a tragic situation even sadder when you think about it.
I've heard some discussion, and actual action taken on this. Trying to push the focus onto the heroes of the event rather than 24x7 focus on the shooter. I think it's a good idea.
That's a very simplified example. Obesity in the modern world, everywhere there is sufficient calories, is precisely such a mystery, clearly there is a calorie excess but what causes the overeating?
Clearly people get killed with guns (although occasionally with other things) but this probably also needs to be combined with a badly dysfunctional society to lead to the mass killings it does in the U.S.. But then things like chronic war-making would serve as condemnation enough of the culture even if there were no mass shootings. And then your back to: why are some societies so violent?
And I'm really not convinced there is any guarantee that people wouldn't get guns even if they were illegal (nor of course would I expect the law to be enforced equally, not if drug laws are any example). When I talked about different ways of approaching the issue though I can't say I'm strongly convinced of any video game theories as the cause, though it would be hard to argue graphic gore was *good* for people but saying it makes mass murders takes a little more than that.
My point wasn't a total ban. Of course you can't/shouldn't ban all chips, cookies, candy, etc...It would be impossible, on many levels. And you can't/shouldn't ban guns. Again, impossible. But just as my hypothetical friend should limit easy access to the junk food, we shold try to limit easy access to guns. And yes they are 'just' a tool, but they are a tool with a sole purpose to kill. That's what the tool is designed for, and trying to make light of that, or ignore that truth altogether is irresponsible and clearly dangerous to our society. We won't be able to control easy access, or start addressing this problem until gun owners...no, gun nuts...agree to talk sensibly about the issue.
*I say gun nuts because I believe most gun owners are for good gun laws.
This kid got that gun from somewhere, and whoever he got it from, I believe should stand trial for accessory to murder. His folks, a friends parents...whoever/where ever.
But, of course, if he bought it at a gun show or through craigs list from a 'private collector', there is no way to trace this weapon back to the last 'responsible' owner.
Every gun sale should be registered. Every one. If a gun is used in a crime, that gun could then be traced back to the last 'responsible' person who owned/sold it. If that last owner sold it at a gun show, or on craigs list, and had the sale properly registered, then they would be fairly safe from prosecution. if however it comes out that this 'responsible' gun owner seems to sell a lot of guns that just seem to wind up in criminals hands, then they won't be safe from investigation/prosecution.
And yes, if the same name keeps popping up on those sales receipts/registrations as the buyer, again, worthy of investigation.
If your gun is lost or stolen, you would report that, and again you are protected from the law. However, if you seem to be 'robbed' with regularity, again, investigation.
It isn't video games, or teenage angst, or kids are so so so horrible today (those dang kids just won't keep off my lawn!). It isn't the attitude of these gosh darn kids today..what generation hasn't said kids today are selfish, greedy and don't have respect. It's guns, and the ATTITUDE towards guns.
I'm sure you went to a well armed school Alan, apparently, but MOST schools didn't sport 40 or 50 guns in the parking lot. In fact, most schools didn't HAVE a very big parking lot because kids back then didn't expect to have a car. Having a car wasn't an automatic thing. We walked or rode our bikes.
Today, with the NRAs urging, people are being conditioned to see guns not as something to respect and use cautiously, as I'm sure you were taught, but as an accessory to wear/carry everywhere...church, grocery, bar, school, where ever you want. In fact, if you listen to NRA blathering, it's actually NECESSARY to be armed at all times! Don't leave the house without packing a pistol! Going to eat at the local restaurant? Better carry a gun! And of course let's encourage red neck mouth breathers to sling an assault rifle over the shoulder and parade through the local mall, or target, or grocery store. Maybe it wouldn't have occurred to your classmates to shoot up the school, but I also bet it wouldn't occur to them that they need to be armed to buy milk. It's not the kids, it's the attitudes.
Guns have gone from a tool to hunt with, to a weapon to intimidate (guns at political rallies), to force your point of view, and intimidate (idiots armed at the mall), to whip up the lowest common denominator in ideological idiocy (Sarah Palin: "Lock and Load"), and have become the 'patriotic' badge/excuse of choice for every paranoid, Wyatt Earp wanna be who has visions of grandeur in their save-the-day scenario from a violent world that ironically they (through their own paranoia) have/are creating.
JMO
I've heard some discussion, and actual action taken on this. Trying to push the focus onto the heroes of the event rather than 24x7 focus on the shooter. I think it's a good idea.
I believe that happened after Aurora. The local officials didn't mention the shooter's name, but the media carrion-feeders couldn't resist.
It's not the kind of thing I suppose you could legislate, but I would think a healthier culture might make it a breach of acceptable standards.
Ok. Just passing this along. I'm currently watching a documentary called "Wisconsin Death Trip". ... no no, don't bother, it's absolutely awful. It's about a supposed "bizarre" series of tragedies and apparent acts of lunacy that occurred in Black River Falls and surrounds during the years 1890 - 1900. Although I see no Bizarre Confluence, it does seem to me that most of the weird and stupid things various people here were doing weren't all that different from incidents we're currently experiencing -harsh conditions leading to religious fanaticism, shootings, mysterious illness, suicide, vandalism, drug abuse, 'depravity'. Sort of ... reassuring? We've always been nuts, or at least prone to extreme breakdown under stress?
I'm sure you went to a well armed school Alan, apparently, but MOST schools didn't sport 40 or 50 guns in the parking lot. In fact, most schools didn't HAVE a very big parking lot because kids back then didn't expect to have a car. Having a car wasn't an automatic thing. We walked or rode our bikes.
I know that wasn't everyone's experience, but there are a lot of us of this certain age that grew up in rural settings where that was the case. There was a much larger percentage of the population on farms and in small (and very small) towns 40 or 50 years ago. I can't speak for everyone in that situation, but we did expect to have a car because the bus wouldn't get us to and from school for any extracurricular activities and our parents couldn't afford to take time away from the farm to be a taxi. Don't want to start an argument about it, but another part of it was that we all hunted and so always had guns in the car with us. Just the fact that the situation was more common then than now combined with the idea that I don't remember ever hearing about any incident (1979 high school grad here) is what interests me. Trying to figure out what changed in society from then to now just seems like a logical starting point.
Guns have gone from a tool to hunt with, to a weapon to intimidate (guns at political rallies), to force your point of view, and intimidate (idiots armed at the mall), to whip up the lowest common denominator in ideological idiocy (Sarah Palin: "Lock and Load"), and have become the 'patriotic' badge/excuse of choice for every paranoid, Wyatt Earp wanna be who has visions of grandeur in their save-the-day scenario from a violent world that ironically they (through their own paranoia) have/are creating.
JMO
I don't agree 100%, but I don't think you're wrong, either. As stated above, we all had guns and we all hunted when I was a kid. That's what guns were for. That and various target shooting events for sport (that were designed to make us more efficient hunters). I know a lot of people right now that own guns that have never hunted and never will hunt. I didn't know anyone like that 40 years ago. Granted that was a very small, very rural town so hardly a cross section of America, but even just as anecdotal evidence its still interesting and, I think, a valid argument.
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