Public education: is it too late?

[Lainey]

http://www.salon.com/2014/11/01/we_must_still_hate_our_kids_philadelphia_and_educa tion_reformers_fight_demented_war_on_elementary_sc hools/

For those who do not have children in public schools, this article may come as a shock. I have a relative who is a teacher in the Philadelphia public schools, and sadly, all of this is true.
Public schools are being starved of funding and resources. Their system to allocate monies depends on local district property taxes which of course means poor areas do not get enough money.

Even Arizona has a more equalized system, but that was only after going to court.

I fear this situation in Philly is just another step on the road to the inevitable privatization of the U.S. public school system - something which was formerly the envy of the world.

[ApatheticNoMore]

It's been too late forever. The public schools were beyond aweful here when I went to them. Now this doesn't mean things can't get worse because things can always get worse.

What are significant steps in things getting worse? Oh probably things like no child left behind, since many a good teacher doesn't want to teach to test. But the poor districts not getting money didn't start then, it has been true for decades and decades. That's why I say an endless topic of conversation at the office (any office! I literally change jobs and the main subjects of conversations never change :treadmill:) is whether one's kids are going to a good school district.

[iris lilies]

http://www.salon.com/2014/11/01/we_must_still_hate_our_kids_philadelphia_and_educa tion_reformers_fight_demented_war_on_elementary_sc hools/

For those who do not have children in public schools, this article may come as a shock. I have a relative who is a teacher in the Philadelphia public schools, and sadly, all of this is true.
Public schools are being starved of funding and resources. Their system to allocate monies depends on local district property taxes which of course means poor areas do not get enough money.

Even Arizona has a more equalized system, but that was only after going to court.

I fear this situation in Philly is just another step on the road to the inevitable privatization of the U.S. public school system - something which was formerly the envy of the world.

ok, I'll play.

Here in the failing uncredited St. Louis city schools, in an urban core, there is more money spent per child than in other "successful" districts in the state. This chart is old but was the first one I Googled. There have been more recent ones and if you need proof, I'll find them. https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/re/articles/?id=392

When I use quotes around "successful" I mean that the systems at least graduate a higher percentage than city schools. Their test scores are certainly higher. Isn't that "successful? "

Isn't much of the school "problem" really a cultural problem where mom (and dad, if there even is one around) do not value education? On a very specific note, Lainey, would you consider it a failure of the public schools to have bright young things graduating and working who regularly use the word "axe" as in "I axed her"? It's now common here, it's not even debatable. Isn't that a cultural problem? Is that my cultural problem? ;) Would you blame lack of money in the schools for that?

Someone is building a $700,000 house across the street from me, and while I am thrilled and giddy about that (hey ho property values!), I have to wonder who in their right mind spends that kind of money in an neighborhood where one cannot even send their children to a public school. 25 years ago when we bought our house, boarded up houses were on our block, Bobbie the neighborhood panhandler hung around and no one expected to send their children to public school unless one could magically gain entrance into a magnet school. But I digress.

It's not all about money. Nor is it all about eschewing public control and screwing the teacher's unions. My city has a fair number of seemingly professionally run charter schools and their test scores are inconclusive (better in STEM, worse in communication/arts.) I also don't think that test scores are the end all and be all.

[Zoe Girl]

I am in education, before and after school and community programming. I am also a certified teacher with a master's degree. I am watching at the school I am at and have been for 3 years that the teachers are generally in their early 20's, have a BA and sometimes not even a teaching certificate, and we have a HIGH population of kids with behavorial issues. And I appreciate everything we have because we DO have resources. Healthy breakfast to all students, lunch ( for many free) and in after school programs snack and in some cases dinner.

What is happening in Philadelphia is beyond horrible. To have children DIE!I have some issue with the charters, there are many states with no oversight and the students do not always excel despite the claims. At least in Denver if you are in the area of a failing school the district has to provide another school, and if you want to provide transportation then you can choose any school you want.

[Tradd]

Here in Chicago, there was a big hullabaloo in 2012 when Rahm closed about 50 failing public schools. There was a big outcry from the black community because the closed schools were in predominantly black neighborhoods, but the truth is that the failing schools generally are in those neighborhoods. The teachers then went on strike at the beginning of last school year. It's a mess. It doesn't help that CPS is under direct control of the mayor, with a school board appointed by the mayor. I think things would improve some if the school board was elected.

Of course, there are going to be a lot of failing schools in the black neighborhoods. Single mothers lead many households, lack of jobs, a lot of violence, parents who may not see the point of education (and who knows how widespread illiteracy is among these neighborhoods). It's just a mess. Throwing more money at the situation, which Chicago most certainly does not have, doesn't seem to make much of a difference.

[mschrisgo2]

Public education is a microcosm of everything that is "wrong" in the larger society: inequity in public funding, and healthcare, and rundown inner city buildings, etc. etc.

We have not had school nurses in California for many years now; there is generally one nurse per district, who pushes paper in the district office.

I am currently teaching in a very poor area, a fifth grade class of 34 students: 6 of them have severe asthma issues, one is on suicide watch, and another has seizures. And I went into teaching specifically because I did NOT want to be a nurse! But my cellphone is in my pocket at all times, and in an emergency I will be calling 911 even before I call the school office.

We are in a brand new building, that replaced one that was rat-infested, leaking roof, water running down the hallways instead of flushing the toilets, etc. But we have no music program, the 5th graders have 45 minutes of PE a week, unless we have a Monday holiday, and then they have none. If I want them to do any kind of art, I have to buy the materials out of my own pocket. Yes, we are a Title I school, and Title I monies are supposed to buy all materials and supplies, but we have no textbooks, so all the money is being used to make copies so we have print materials to teach reading.

There are dozens and dozens of computers in the building, but no one can figure out how to get enough electricity and bandwidth into the building to power them. But, oh yes, the required state testing will be ALL done electronically this year. They have until April to figure it out.

One of my students dared another to write FU** on his paper- the kid did it, then they were going to fight, literally. I stopped them, sent them to the office, separately. One of the mother's told me- during the "required phone call from the teacher" when I send them out- that she never wanted to hear from the school again, that I'm incompetent, and too old to be teaching young children (10-11 year olds). I tried to tell her that I just saved her son from being beaten up in a fight that he started, but she hung up on me. The other mother told me "Thank you for working with us and holding my son accountable. He needs to learn that fighting will get him nothing but trouble. If he mouthed off to a police officer like he did to you, he could get shot. That is how our black boys get killed." Both boys are black; one mother understands the issues, the other clearly does not. In her great denial, she makes the teacher and the school the bad guys. Yet both boys face the same fate.

I'm a very good, very experienced teacher. I do the best I can; most of the kids know that. But I can't fix everything for them. It is a broken system, and has been since the very beginning: one room schoolhouses where the teachers did everything including the custodial work, and were paid only room and board, moving from home to home throughout the school year. It hasn't changed much, not much at all, except that it has gotten to be a much bigger mess, because the are far more kids.

[catherine]

I agree it's a very complex problem. I have never been a teacher, but always felt it was a missed calling, so I tend to enjoy books about teachers and schools--I've read books by Jonathan Kozol and others that outline some of the troubles you're talking about, and it is horrifying.

I think the allocation of monies to fund schools based on property taxes creates horrible inequalities and makes no sense whatsoever. But to iris lilies' point, dumping money at the problem is not the answer. If that were the case, all the kids coming out of those one-room schoolhouses would have been failures, which, of course, is not the case.

Community is incredibly important. One day DH and I were in a restaurant and ran into our kids' old principal. I actually helped to hire him in 1989 when I worked for the Board of Ed, so we were always friendly. He was still working, but it was past normal retirement age. So we said, "Joe, when are you going to retire??" and he said, "Well, my work is getting easier now, so I'll just stay until it's not fun anymore."

Of course we were surprised to hear his job was easier--we knew of all the bad stuff going on in public education. So we asked him how. And he told us it was because the community has evolved into a South Asian majority (true--most of my neighbors are South Asian), and those parents are supportive of the schools and the teachers and the kids pretty much toe the line.

I applaud all you teachers who are dedicated to your students despite the community, the parents, the school administration, whatever your particular ills are. I've known teachers who just couldn't deal and quit, and it's a shame. We need every good teacher we can get--we need a culture that respects what teachers are trying to do every day, and we need schools that have what they need to do the job, whether that's new textbooks or inspired leadership or parental support.

[Zoe Girl]

Chris, I used to live in California and subbed. I had decided to not go into education because the resources were so bad. I talked to special education teachers that had growing class sizes bordering on unsafe. The asthma issue is a big deal, I called 911 one time after school. Suicide watch here too, do people know we have elementary kids on suicide watch? Even in a pretty well funded district (read about it in family section) I deal with the variety of parents. One set of parents have limited ability to come into the school to pick up children from after school care, step dad was banned by me and mom is on watch for using the f-word in my program room.

[nswef]

This makes me so sad and angry. I started teaching in 1970 in a rural newly integrated school. Parental support good. Then in 83 moved to a city school..more racial mix, more poor, still good parental support. Somewhere in the 90s we lost parental support, administrative support "you deal with it" attitude from the central office down to the school adm. By the time I retired in 2001 after 31 years I was sad and discouraged. Until this society believes that children are important nothing will change. I now substitute about once a month at my local, rural school and even it is suffering. There is great community support, but the constant push to master the test has pushed out all the fun of teaching. My ideas to fix...smaller schools, healthy communities where people can work for a decent wage, lots of art and music for the preK, K and first grades especially and for the entire preK-12 spectrum. Small classes- having 27 Kindergarteners is insane! Add in troubled children and even 20 is too many to meet the needs of the children. Will any of this ever happen? I am not hopeful at all. Those making the laws tend to be self motivated, middle/upper class people who never struggled in school. They just don't get it! Add in all the STEM push because that's where the money is along with a .disrespect of the arts because it is not quantifiable or easily tested and you have the current system. Quality of schools based on zip code.

[creaker]

What's really sad is when these kids grow up, they'll be blamed for the "choices" they made that led them to their current economic situation.

[Zoe Girl]

I have a couple staff who are from lower income backgrounds and heard all the encouragement to go to college when they were in school. Both of them have gone for awhile and then had to take time to pay for loans because their life had a crisis and they couldn't keep up with school. They work part time in the educational system and there is not the magic money most people seem to think we have in order for them to get ahead.

What breaks my heart is the huge focus on the test (which does not include any arts of course) when the teacher has a child whose parent is in jail, another who just had a parent die, a kid on suicide watch and others who miss school because going through the social service type of medical care is not very effective so they are sick or need more appointments. I have seen teachers lose jobs over the test scores and no one has ever asked how many kids are homeless or hungry in that class

[pinkytoe]

Public education is a microcosm of everything that is "wrong" in the larger society
I think there are huge demographic shifts going on in this country that are affecting everything - housing, jobs, education, etc. Case in point - in my city, the inner core is being quickly gentrified from lower and middle income to high income. Guess what - the higher income folks (if they even have children) send them to private schools. Our public schools now consist of something like 65% minority with a huge portion having spanish as a second language. This reshuffling of "thems who's got and thems who's don't" is really very unsettling. DD is very lucky as she was probably the last generation who received a solid public school education in a middle class neighborhood school. At 31, she even still gets together with her kindergarten teacher who is 90. The elementary she attended now has to transfer in students from other parts of town just to stay open.

[iris lilies]

Did anyone hear that NPR story recently (although I think it was a re-broadcast) and the New Jersey school district that was run by Hassidic Jews who sent all of their own children to private school? It was pretty interesting. I think it was an This American Life story.

In a nutshell: New Jersey law allows public school funds to be given to private schools for transportation. Only for transportation. For many years the public schools and the religious schools coexisted happily with this exchange of money. Then, the public schools started keeping more money, and meanwhile the school district went after taxe increases. So, in this lower middle class area where a lot of Hassid live and work, taxes kept climbing yet the Hassid got little value from the increases. So they worked to get a majority on the school board to stop the tax increases and to change allocations of existing funds.

pinkytoe's story of richer people moving in but not using the local schools reminded me of this. While the higher Austin property values may temporarily bring in more money and will be good for a short term, in the long run it may backfire as tax initiatives come on the ballot and moneyed people vote them down.

[ApatheticNoMore]

This reshuffling of "thems who's got and thems who's don't" is really very unsettling.

all of that is very old news here. Most of the people who initially experienced that have kids of their own now (unless they aren't breeders :) ) and not that young kids either.

[Gardenarian]

The conditions of the schools described are disgusting. I wish I were shocked, but why would I be? This is how we treat our children, our poor, our Earth.

I have homeschooled my daughter for many years because I did not want her growing up in the poor public school environment. By poor, I mean lacking in beauty, interesting educational materials, access to the natural world, and the individual attention that children need. No public school can come close to providing both the stimulus and the comforts that are available at home.

That being said, dd, now 15, is having a hard time socially, as most of her friends have gone on to college. (She has always had older friends.) This was part of the reason we decided to move to Oregon; the city of Ashland has a very well respected high school. I know that dd has learned enough at home to take what good she can from school, and hopefully leave the rest behind. And if it doesn't work out -there are options: Take the GED, go back to homeschooling, start early college -she'll be okay - but only because dh and I have flexible schedules and the time (and education) to give her what she needs to be happy, healthy, and successful.

The whole idea of putting children in a room and forcing them to sit and do the same thing as each other all day is insane. There was a NYT article today on ADHD (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/02/opinion/sunday/a-natural-fix-for-adhd.html?emc=edit_th_20141102&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=69136398) which found that all those hyperactive kids are simply bored - surprise!

[Lainey]

I wonder if the true pupil per capita spending would be different if the budget for the special needs students was not included. Of course, I am not advocating going back to the days when these students were not educated, but, without that, what would be the per pupil cost to taxpayers?
And does that include building maintenance - or in Philly's case, the lack of maintenance - costs?

I find it sad that there are so many who do not think the lack of a decent public education in a decent setting for all is not a real loss for our society. We cannot be surprised when other first world countries overtake us when we forfeit our responsibility to the next generation.

[iris lilies]

Chris, I used to live in California and subbed. I had decided to not go into education because the resources were so bad. I talked to special education teachers that had growing class sizes bordering on unsafe. The asthma issue is a big deal, I called 911 one time after school. Suicide watch here too, do people know we have elementary kids on suicide watch? Even in a pretty well funded district (read about it in family section) I deal with the variety of parents. One set of parents have limited ability to come into the school to pick up children from after school care, step dad was banned by me and mom is on watch for using the f-word in my program room.

California citizens voted in their various Propositions to keep taxes flat. I guess that if they are unhappy with that outcome, they can change it.

One of our amendments on the ballot tomorrow is a state amendment to require teachers to be evaluated according to standards of merit. It's know as the "anti-tenure" amendment.

I will vote no because I vote no on all amendments, that is a very poor way to legislate. But I completely agree with the sentiment, I'll just leave it up to each school district to decide how to evaluate their employees.

[iris lilies]

I wonder if the true pupil per capita spending would be different if the budget for the special needs students was not included. Of course, I am not advocating going back to the days when these students were not educated, but, without that, what would be the per pupil cost to taxpayers?
And does that include building maintenance - or in Philly's case, the lack of maintenance - costs?

I find it sad that there are so many who do not think the lack of a decent public education in a decent setting for all is not a real loss for our society. We cannot be surprised when other first world countries overtake us when we forfeit our responsibility to the next generation.

I don't know what the per capita comparison includes, I assume it's an apples-to-apples comparison.

There IS something to be said for my city's schools having more expensive physical plants to maintain than some of of the suburban districts. Victorian building are more expensive to maintain and outfit than those built 20 years ago. OTOH, we have 20 year old school buildings here, too.

This reminds me of one of many interesting shenanigans of our school district; it passed legislation that buildings they owned, and abandoned, could not be sold to charter or private schools. Didn't want that ready-made competition moving in on them I guess, afraid of being shown up.

[JaneV2.0]

Iris Lily, are your amendments similar to our initiatives or California's propositions? Because I find that sometimes the best ideas (if not the best-crafted laws) come up from the bottom, and I vote for them quite often. I had to laugh when our legislature passed a same-sex marriage law, and fundamentalists got all exercised about it and drafted an initiative to overturn it. Something like "same sex marriage, yea or nay? The joke was on them when the yeas won handily. I'm glad they advanced an initiative though, because it made the law that much more meaningful. And one of these days I'm going to take advantage of our marijuana initiative, just for fun.

[Lainey]

The other issue with initiatives is that they do not come with the increased revenue they usually require. That's because most voters are schizophrenic, so we end up with stuff like, e.g., Initiative to restrict class size to 28 or less - Yes! Initiative to increase taxes to fund this class size - No! Initiative to add 15,000 more acres to public parks - Yes! Initiative to increase taxes to fund maintenance of this park - No! etc etc.

That's what has made California almost ungovernable.

What I find in AZ, another initiative state, is that the state's legislators craft an initiative for the voters because they themselves are too chickens*!t to make the hard choices that need to be made. Case in point: voters in Phoenix had to raise the food tax during the Great Recession because our elected reps would not do it lest they be on the record as raising taxes. When it passed it raised enough revenue to keep everything going; unfortunately, after a while the city rolled back the tax increase too soon and now we're in deep crap yet again.

[iris lilies]

Iris Lily, are your amendments similar to our initiatives or California's propositions? Because I find that sometimes the best ideas (if not the best-crafted laws) come up from the bottom, and I vote for them quite often. I had to laugh when our legislature passed a same-sex marriage law, and fundamentalists got all exercised about it and drafted an initiative to overturn it. Something like "same sex marriage, yea or nay? The joke was on them when the yeas won handily. I'm glad they advanced an initiative though, because it made the law that much more meaningful. And one of these days I'm going to take advantage of our marijuana initiative, just for fun.

Ideas are a dime a dozen.

Do you honestly think that politicians in our state legislature have never entertained the concepts in the amendments, either pro or con? The amendments are a bad way to legislate.

If I'm going to do all of the work as a citizen (pass the legislation at the ballot box as amendment) then what are those clowns doing in the legislature?

[iris lilies]

...What I find in AZ, another initiative state, is that the state's legislators craft an initiative for the voters because they themselves are too chickens*!t to make the hard choices that need to be made.... .
Exactly.

Again, why should I do their work for them?

[ApatheticNoMore]

The citizens judgements on initiatives are usually pretty sound (I mean in California over time, a trend I've noticed - this is not a comment about this Nov nationwide). There are exceptions, yes the glaring ones. And there are those I merely disagree with. But the judgement making seems much better on average than our so called "representatives" utterly corrupt as they are. Big money sometimes sways the initiative vote? Sometimes, it is the danger there, but also massively funded measures also fail when people see through them. That's what I mean the decision making is more often good than bad. Meanwhile politicians are always and at every point for sale.

[JaneV2.0]

Apparently legislators are too cowardly to pass pro-marijuana legislation--and other controversial laws--so I'm happy we have an alternative method to get things done. It is a government of the people, after all.

[Alan]

Apparently legislators are too cowardly to pass pro-marijuana legislation--and other controversial laws--so I'm happy we have an alternative method to get things done. It is a government of the people, after all.When you remove legislation from the picture and relegate such things to the judiciary (or the executive for that matter), is the government really of the people?

[LDAHL]

When you remove legislation from the picture and relegate such things to the judiciary (or the executive for that matter), is the government really of the people?

Exactly. I never understood the thinking that measured government's value in terms of "productivity", as if it were some sort of factory for imposing new rules, curtailing obsolete liberties, redistributing property, and generally fine-tuning society in conformity with the latest fashion.

I think the true genius of those dead white slave-holding males who drafted the constitution was in a superior understanding of history and human nature. The last thing they wanted was for government to be an efficient tool for any group or individual, even a clear majority, to impose new rules. Anyone wanting to create new obligations for his fellows needs to run a gauntlet of checks and balances before he can get his way. I can see how that would be frustrating to zealots or demagogues or wannabe autarchs or credentialed experts looking to save us from ourselves. I just happen to think that's a better way to run a country.