Americans, and lack of vacations

[bae]

Apparently many Americans don't even take the limited paid vacations they are offered.

http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20141106-the-no-vacation-nation

That can't be good for long term health and stability.

[kib]

Mastercard has made a commercial about this (obviously to encourage people to take expensive travel days, not just days off), using little kids as commentators. The first little boy, about 4 years old, upon hearing that people leave vacation days unused, says, "That's the stupidest thing I ever heard". His intonation sticks with me and it's one of those phrases I now want to use all the time, but can't because it's rude. Too bad.

http://www.ispot.tv/ad/7NVK/mastercard-onemoreday-of-travel-priceless

[catherine]

I had a client request a quick-turnaround project in the EU at the end of December, and the report had to be delivered in early January, meaning interviews would have to be conducted between Christmas and New Year's. I called a bunch of recruiters and they all basically said, "Are you kidding me? No way. We're on vacation over here." So I told my client that, and she told me to just throw more money at them, assuming that would solve the "problem." I tried to tell her that their vacation isn't for sale, but she didn't believe me until she saw for herself.

We also stay away from international projects in August because there's no way we'll find people do do them. Not the case among my colleagues. Now that I'm freelance, I hear complaints from my corporate colleagues who are pushed to the limit and feel that they have to take work with them on vacation.

[lessisbest]

Hubby has been with the same company for 40-years (in February) and it's rare that he takes all his vacation. When he first got 2-weeks vacation they had a policy where if you worked one week of your vacation time, you could get double pay. So he would work one week of vacation in order to pay for us to go on a vacation for the other week. If you timed it just right during a Monday national holiday, you could get 10-days off for that 5-days of vacation time. They have since removed that policy.....unfortunately. He's in upper management and there's really not a "good" time to be gone so we take a couple day trips each quarter using a couple days of vacation, he also takes off Canadian Thanksgiving (October - our daughter and her family who live 12-hours away always have Columbus Day off - which is also Canadian Thanksgiving - so we've moved Thanksgiving to October and skip the hectic travel time in November) and he usually manages some time off after Christmas.

[Alan]

I get 6 weeks of vacation a year, plus this year (2014) my company instituted a one week paid mental health break in July of each year when they actually shut down operations to ensure that no one is bothered by emails, deadlines, etc. As usual, I'll use the last of my vacation between Christmas and New Years, no paid time off goes to waste in my world.

[Tradd]

I think a lot of it depends on the nature of your work. I actually have a few friends who go away for a week or two, and while they are gone, their workload just sits there. Coworkers provide only minimal, if that, coverage. I can't get my head around that.

I was recently gone for a week (returned Oct. 29). I had to do as much as possible before I left (or prepared). The nature of my work, with constant deadlines from arriving cargo, is different from many others. I handed a few files I wasn't able to get done to a coworker, and she actually got peevish with me because the files weren't pre-done. You only have so much time. If you run out, well, you did as much as you could. I just recovered from being gone Friday, when I finally plowed through the stack of documents received since I was gone that had to be put in the appropriate files. In my case, preparing to be gone for a week is almost too much work. I only am gone for a week once a year. I take the rest of my days in small increments.

I get three weeks vacation (I've been there eight years), plus two personal days and two floating holidays. That's on top of 6-10 sick days (I don't remember the exact number).

My European counterparts aren't gone for all of August. The nature of the business doesn't allow it. But there are definitely fewer shipments from Europe in August.

[Lainey]

One senior manager in my dept. is forfeiting 80 hrs of vacation this year due to a months long project with a hard deadline. That project actually resulted in the recent and earlier-than-he-planned retirement from one guy on the team who was just exhausted.

Agree with bae. This is not good for long term mental and physical health of employees, and good, experienced employees close to retirement are deciding to leave vs. endure any more.

For myself, I have 4 weeks and I take it all including holidays. I'm rarely sick so things don't get backed up, and I'll occasionally work extra hrs to stay current with my workload.

[Tradd]

Lainey, does someone cover your workload while you are gone or does it just sit there? My customers get parceled out to coworkers.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I can see strategically saving vacation days like to say go to interviews (though sick days work much better).

Otherwise the most I've ever gotten is 4 but far far more often it's closer to 2 weeks vacation (it's 12 days a year now). Never more than 5 days sick time, never sick time that carries over more than one year, never any personal days as part of employment. I'm actually often enough genuinely sick, just seasonal bugs, since everyone comes to the office sick it's hard to avoid.

[bae]

I can see strategically saving vacation days like to say go to interviews (though sick days work much better).


I used to save my vacation days to provide me some buffer for when I quit to start the next company.

In retrospect though, the reason I generally wanted to quit involved overworking and never taking vacation days :-)

My very last company had more progressive vacation and sabbatical policies, and that seemed to result in much higher employee happiness and retention - some of the folks I started with there ~20 years ago are still there, and happy about it.

[iris lilies]

You can all tell me what kind of vacation I need to take and when, but perhaps I am a better master of my own universe than you are.

My work place allows us to take "personal leave" (i.e. vacation) in increments of 1 hour. I like that. I also like taking those hours seasonally so that April - July I use a few hours a week for outdoor activities, and then during the winter, I have little interest in vacation. My preferred job would be part time, seasonal, working August 15 - Feb or March.

[jp1]

My employer is fairly generous. I get 27 PTO days per year. I generally carry over between 5 and 10, but take close to the full allotment each year. The longest I've been out of the office at any one time is 8 days. We also get 10 paid holidays, and unfortunately this year I'm also getting 10 bereavement days. Thankfully my role is such that large amounts of work don't really pile up while I'm gone.

[JaneV2.0]

I had something like nine weeks off by the time I retired. And I took every single one of them. Having time off didn't exactly make me like my job, but it sure helped me tolerate it.

[SteveinMN]

Where I worked, they went from a policy of allowing fairly generous banking of days (annual plus up to twice your annual extra) to only allowing the annual allotment -- use it or lose it. There was no option to trade the days for pay. So a lot of people took weeks of vacation throughout one year to burn through it. Not a productive year.

DW has several months of PTO banked after 25 years. There's just not enough opportunity to take it all. They are allowed to sell some days, and she'll be selling the maximum she can. We figure the county will come to the same conclusion that my company did: letting employees keep large amounts of vacation on the books is an expensive liability -- and it only gets more expensive as people get new jobs/promotions and paid for those even if they earned those hours as a clerk or aide.

DW has learned, however (as I did) that the way to take a real vacation is to take three or more weeks at a time. For a week's vacation, we found, you pretty much work a week's overtime in the office to prepare and recover from the time off. Two weeks is pretty much an amplification of one week, though at least you still have some vacation when you finish your first week of spooling down. Three weeks, though -- that's long enough that they can't hold a decision or a project for your return. They have to deal with it without you. And it allows you to forgo some of the endless meetings. "I'd be happy to, but I'll be on vacation during that project. So it doesn't make sense to go to the meeting."

[Tammy]

I like to keep a month or so vaca in my PTO bank for emergencies. Our sick and vaca is blended into one account. We also accrue long term sick leave which is only used for illnesses longer than 3-5 days- I can't remember. Between the two, I've got enough to get paid for about 8 weeks, and I can stretch my income to make that cover 4 months. At 6 months I'm eligible for long term disability. Savings will cover the last two months before long term disability. So I no longer have to pay for short term disability with this much in my bank. That alone saves me almost 80 a month.

I didn't think like this when I was younger. But at 50-something I realize I could be out of commission for awhile if my body doesn't cooperate with me.

I still take time off (a week usually) a few times a year. I pair it with some of the 10 holidays to make it stretch longer. And I take 3-4 day weekends several times a year. But I can't use it as fast as it accumulates. If I plan a day off, then work overtime a few hours the other 4 days, I end up not using PTO for the day off cause it's only paid if I don't reach 40 hours. I gets lots of overtime in nursing with the surprises that occur in that type of work.

[Simplemind]

I was sitting in a pretty sweet spot before I took early retirement. All my time banks were full and I was earning one day off a week in a use it or lose it situation. I decided to take off two hours early four days a week so it felt like a part time job. When I left they cashed me out for my banks and handed me a check for 14K.

[catherine]

My preferred job would be part time, seasonal, working August 15 - Feb or March.

Interesting block of time--any reason why that particular timeframe?

I wish there were more jobs (kind of like my freelance one) where you got paid based on results and not on # of hours put in. Not all jobs could be performed that way obviously--sometimes you have to put the hours in. But if you do project management, why not just work the hours you need to get the project done? What difference does it make if you are sitting in the office suffering through downtime or at home catching up on chores as long as you've done what you've needed to do for the day? In some ways, I think the whole punching the time clock thing is an anachronism for some jobs at least.

As for vacation, I agree with Steve--one week is nothing but a tease. It would be great if we could join our European counterparts and just all go on vacation for the whole month of August.

[Packy]

You can all tell me what kind of vacation I need to take and when, but perhaps I am a better master of my own universe than you are.

My work place allows us to take "personal leave" (i.e. vacation) in increments of 1 hour. I like that. I also like taking those hours seasonally so that April - July I use a few hours a week for outdoor activities, and then during the winter, I have little interest in vacation. My preferred job would be part time, seasonal, working August 15 - Feb or March.Well, I think you: A) Prolly don't even NEED a vacation. Vacation, to me implies complete rest from all that hard work & stress and stuff. And fortunately, you don't really have that problem, do you? If you go on a "Vacation", this means you'll be spending big bucks on something with no return or equity; sitting on an unclean airplane and in filthy, germy foreign airports, etc., for hours on end. Eating restaurant meals, the whole time. Even at the really premier bistros, some employees forget to wash, and you don't want to risk getting hepatitis, do you? B) It is my understanding that you have pets; They will miss you. Sometimes, due to anxiety, they become destructive. See? I've also heard that you live in Da Hood; the minute you are gone, the thugs will be kicking down da door, going after your Tee-Vee. You don't want to be without a Tee-Vee when you arrive home, not even for a minute! Do You? C) It comes a time at any place of employment that no matter how valuable you think you are or how much um, "tenure" you have, all you need to do is take leave for a week or two, and your co-workers will manage to be amazed at how well everything functioned, anyway! You really don't want to be part of the next cost-cutting plan at the Lirrrarry, am I right? Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mee.

[ctg492]

Some just don't take vacations. They suffer from work addiction. Bottom line. With cells, wifi and 24/7/365 mindset of today's world some do not know how to break free.

[iris lilies]

Interesting block of time--any reason why that particular timeframe?


Oh sure, gardening season is March - August.

[gimmethesimplelife]

This is one area in which I am glad I have waited tables for so long, especially during the tech bubble and the housing bubble. So many food and beverage employers are not going to give you benefits or if they do they are very lame benefits (but better than nothing). That said, it was not hard to jump from restaurant to restaurant for awhile there as even though serving is hardly rocket science, you were at one time really needed as a server. Point being you could leave one restaurant, take off X number of weeks, and then quickly get rehired at a new place, or perhaps even the old one if you left on good terms, though this last only worked for me once. Those days are gone now for the most part unless you are willing to work seasonal jobs, say in National Parks, and then perhaps winters at a ski resort, with time off in between jobs. That way of working is still possible, but it is more competitive than it once was.

So I had my way of getting around how little down time means in America. In Austria where my mother's family is, you are guaranteed four weeks off a year with pay AND a full months salary every year as a Christmas bonus, although they don't call it a Christmas bonus any more. How I wish we were worth that here, but it can't be because it's all about the rich getting richer - so quality of life for average working people really means nothing in America. This fact though is also positive in a way as I'm sure it has inspired some people towards self employment so that they could have the human dignity that comes from having some control over their time. So there's some good to it in a way I guess. Rob

[catherine]

Oh sure, gardening season is March - August.

I should have figured that out myself. :)

[gimmethesimplelife]

Some just don't take vacations. They suffer from work addiction. Bottom line. With cells, wifi and 24/7/365 mindset of today's world some do not know how to break free.I've always found it amazing that some people are addicted to work. Absolutely amazing. For me, I work to live. I will never live to work - I don't see anything in living like that for me. And I don't care to have stress related health issues, or miss out on life in general. So glad I found YMOYL and simple living.....Rob

[catherine]

I've always found it amazing that some people are addicted to work.

I'm going to be honest here.. sure people can be addicted to work, but that means different things to different people. Addiction to work may be a way to distance yourself from intimacy with your family. Or keep you from dealing with your own issues. Or to be used as an ego-prop.

Or it can be a way to manifest your passion. I can think of people who have done wonderful things because they were "addicted to work." Doctors who work for Doctors without Borders. People who throw themselves into service or a genuine calling. Steve Jobs. Martin Luther King. Are they "addicted to work"? Maybe, and maybe we're better off for it.

I understand that people need and want leisure time, of course. But maybe the simple life can include those with a singular passion to achieve something. Just playing Devil's Advocate… I don't we should judge everyone who devotes a large portion of their time to work. However, if the company they work for is exploiting them and demanding hours that are unrealistic, and the worker is burnt out and resentful, then that's a whole different story.

Finally, frankly, I can think of worse things than being married to a workaholic, versus other "holics" But then again, I like to be by myself a lot.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I'm going to be honest here.. sure people can be addicted to work, but that means different things to different people. Addiction to work may be a way to distance yourself from intimacy with your family. Or keep you from dealing with your own issues. Or to be used as an ego-prop.

Or it can be a way to manifest your passion. I can think of people who have done wonderful things because they were "addicted to work." Doctors who work for Doctors without Borders. People who throw themselves into service or a genuine calling. Steve Jobs. Martin Luther King. Are they "addicted to work"? Maybe, and maybe we're better off for it.

I understand that people need and want leisure time, of course. But maybe the simple life can include those with a singular passion to achieve something. Just playing Devil's Advocate… I don't we should judge everyone who devotes a large portion of their time to work. However, if the company they work for is exploiting them and demanding hours that are unrealistic, and the worker is burnt out and resentful, then that's a whole different story.

Finally, frankly, I can think of worse things than being married to a workaholic, versus other "holics" But then again, I like to be by myself a lot.I can see your point, Catherine, and I agree with you. There are some people who find a true calling and are able to immerse themselves in it completely as it is a perfect fit for whatever their gifts are. Such people in my book are rare and very lucky indeed. I'm thinking more of people who are mentioned in your last line - burnt out and overworked and resentful. There's a lot of that going around these days I'm afraid. Rob

[catherine]

burnt out and overworked and resentful. There's a lot of that going around these days I'm afraid. Rob

Yup. I'm with you there.

[rodeosweetheart]

I'm taking an interesting course right now and the psychiatrist who is teaching it talks about all addictions as being problems regulating energy states.

This has been an interesting way to look at the problem of addiction. Obviously, work that is your passion is not really the problem. It is that unease that comes when one must work obsessively to stave off some feeling like anxiety.

Was just at a meeting where the boss announced that tomorrow is Veteran's Day and that technically, it's a holiday, "but that is a joke" she said, "we don't take off work, right."

I decided right then and there I am taking my holiday tomorrow. And I don't think it is a joke, and I think that's a bad message for her to send.

I think the joke is evidence of addiction. . .

[iris lilies]

My friend's husband was at work 54 hours straight last week. 54 hours at work, not he came home at night, then went back to work. He's an IT guy who keeps systems running at a hospital. She wants him to start thinking about retiring but he's thinking of working another 10 years. He is 58 now. Money will not be a problem, they will be inheriting at least a million from her dad who won't live much longer.

I've been a workaholic off and on in my past. At times, it's more fun to go into work than to sty home and do home chores.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I'm going to be honest here.. sure people can be addicted to work, but that means different things to different people. Addiction to work may be a way to distance yourself from intimacy with your family. Or keep you from dealing with your own issues.

well such things take TIME, and if you spend all your time working ... (I'm meaning over 40 hours here, I tend to think 40 is way too many (requires constantly juggling something always falls through), but it still allows some time - but an 80 hour week - where is the time for others and self going to come from? You can't get blood from a stone. So by necessity it seems to me that it is distance from those things whether or not that's the motive)


Or it can be a way to manifest your passion. I can think of people who have done wonderful things because they were "addicted to work." Doctors who work for Doctors without Borders. People who throw themselves into service or a genuine calling. Steve Jobs. Martin Luther King. Are they "addicted to work"? Maybe, and maybe we're better off for it.

Maybe, but it's the minority. And sometimes came at a great sacrifice of family life etc. (some famous accomplished people were frankly neglectful parents - which doesn't negate their other accomplishments of course). Why is it considered so impossible to do good work and not spend every waking hour working? Why is it never considered that leisure might ENRICH and improve certain kinds of work (creative work for instance).


I understand that people need and want leisure time, of course. But maybe the simple life can include those with a singular passion to achieve something. Just playing Devil's Advocate… I don't we should judge everyone who devotes a large portion of their time to work.

In an ideal society everyone is included, everyone in, no one out (although with a few extreme cases there is probably no choice but to protect society). But meanwhile, in the real world, it's not these people who are judged, they conform to the social idea (won't anyone please thing of those who perfectly match the social ideal!?!?) It's people who would like something in life besides PAID work that are judged (lazy, lacking work ethic, took too long between jobs (omg you took a year off to travel - you'll never work again), leave promptly after 8 hours, no company commitment etc. etc.). And these type of ideals are used a cudgel to beat everyone else over the head with. And being that most jobs (80%?) aren't by nature particularly fulfilling in themselves this is almost certainly the majority. Is it really true Americans don't WANT the vacation time Europeans get? And jobs aren't DESIGNED to be fulfilling, they aren't designed on a basis of "work needs to get done how to we make it as rewarding or at least as unobjectionable/least painful as possible". They are designed to maximize perceived profits period.

And so we judge the constant preaching of that ideal because maybe it is responsible for the fact the U.S. has the least vacation time in the entire industrialized world pretty much, doesn't even have a paid sick time policy so those who work at places without any sick days come to work with the flu (I mean this is a level of ridiculousness that goes way beyond wanting leisure), has very few overtime protections, have few protections for people who want to work part-time etc. etc.


However, if the company they work for is exploiting them and demanding hours that are unrealistic, and the worker is burnt out and resentful, then that's a whole different story.

how would you even know the difference if they depend on their income from a job? (hey if they are independently wealthy and workaholics then ... shrug). Maybe if they were being utterly honest with themselves they could tell you, but I'm not sure it's that easy to tell externally as that pressure to work overtime in certain companies is felt at not just conscious levels (and sometimes communicated, I've heard at jobs things said like "the people who only work 8 hour days and leave promptly after 8 hours won't be here next year") and the pressure to appear happy and say you love/like/at least don't hate your work is also great. Maybe they are just putting on a good face about things they feel they have absolutely no power to change.

[sweetana3]

Iris lilies, that is why we live in Indiana. My husband had a job in Alaska where he worked from August to February without a single day off. He was making money hand over fist and made more than the mayor (one week he was paid for 120 hours or so) but he was burned out. It was IT and the contractors kept coming for 2 weeks and going home for 2 weeks but he was always there. We moved to get away from that since there was no end in sight and a new administration wanted all kinds of new changes. The money was not worth it.

[catherine]

My friend's husband was at work 54 hours straight last week. 54 hours at work, not he came home at night, then went back to work.

A mere 54 hours a week? Before I was driven to quit, I was often doing 70-80. Here's an entry in my journal in 2005:


--Chicago O'Hare President’s Club. This has been a wild two and a half weeks. NY, San Francisco, Ft. Lauderdale, Chicago, NY, Dallas, Chicago again. And two projects simulataneously, full 16 hour days. Two presentations within two days of each other. Stress.

I’m looking forward to sitting home and cleaning it. That’s what’s on my mind.

I’m very tired. Sometimes I wonder if this is what I want to do much longer.

My battery is running out.

Believe me, I wasn't alone. (And I apologize for probably sounding like I'm actually bragging about the ridiculous hours--I'm sensitive to that, because that's typical workaholic posturing of the overworked American. My saving grace is that I got out.)

ETA: IL, I just noticed that you said it was 54 hours in succession, with no break/home time. That is pretty brutal.

[ApatheticNoMore]

My fictional journal entry on that would be:

I don't even have time to cook anymore, dishes are growing mold from the cooking I did a week ago on the single day off I got, and I come home and collapse into bed despite that, I wish someone would do my dishes for me, and then they could pay my bills, and take my car for maintenance that is says it needs. I feel bad even wasting time to do this journal, bills haven't been paid and probably are getting late charges, I'm gaining weight, I feel very fat and like I can't stop it because I'm on a runaway train, I never get any exercise anymore, I'm starting to just eat whatever, grab junk food on the run that I know is bad for my health and makes me feel like @#$#, and I eat when I'm tired because I can't sleep, I'm starting to abuse caffeine more and more even though I know it only ruins my sleep more and more, and I get more and more tired, I feel like it's a vicious cycle I can't break out of. If only I could get a break! Just a week off to get my life sane. I feel alienated from myself, I don't know what I feel anymore, do I even feel anymore? I'm a human machine, no time for feelings, no time for thoughts, no time to breath. Is this which I am living even life? There's got to be some way out of here!!! I've got to get out, no matter what, I've got to get out. But I have no time to get out because .... I have no time, I'm in too deep, it's a trap. I survive on hope that things will improve, that someday I will find a way out.

[P.S. I don't actually write journal entries that read like that, but I have had most of those thoughts when overwhelmed]

[catherine]

My fictional journal entry on that would be:

I don't even have time to cook anymore, dishes are growing mold from the cooking I did a week ago on the single day off I got, and I come home and collapse into bed despite that, I wish someone would do my dishes for me, and then they could pay my bills, and take my car for maintenance that is says it needs. I feel bad even wasting time to do this journal, bills haven't been paid and probably are getting late charges, I'm gaining weight, I feel very fat and like I can't stop it because I'm on a runaway train, I never get any exercise anymore, I'm starting to just eat whatever, grab junk food on the run that I know is bad for my health and makes me feel like @#$#, and I eat when I'm tired because I can't sleep, I'm starting to abuse caffeine more and more even though I know it only ruins my sleep more and more, and I get more and more tired, I feel like it's a vicious cycle I can't break out of. If only I could get a break! Just a week off to get my life sane. I feel alienated from myself, I don't know what I feel anymore, do I even feel anymore? I'm a human machine, no time for feelings, no time for thoughts, no time to breath. Is this which I am living even life? There's got to be some way out of here!!! I've got to get out, no matter what, I've got to get out. But I have no time to get out because .... I have no time, I'm in too deep, it's a trap. I survive on hope that things will improve, that someday I will find a way out.

[P.S. I don't actually write journal entries that read like that, but I have had most of those thoughts when overwhelmed]

I'm afraid that you speak for many people, ANM, including myself at different points in my life. And what comes to my mind is, as much as I love Mark Bittman and Michael Pollan, I think to myself, are you kidding me? People are living this life from end to end with no time for re-creation and you're telling them they need to cook at home? They need to shop organic. Make a pastured-beef dinner with organic potatoes and herbs lovingly grown outside your kitchen door? No prob! Well, it's hard to integrate our lives and nurture what needs to be nurtured when the balance is all tipped in favor of the Company Man.

[pinkytoe]

I usually take about four weeks total per year in vacation time. Currently, I have about two months worth that can either be "spent", cashed in at retirement or used to buy service credit for a higher pension along with accrued sick days. One of the great perks of working at the university is quite a bit of time off during the holidays - usually 2-2 1/2 weeks when everything shuts down. I look forward to my winter break. I agree that there are some people who love whatever it is they do - my brother case in point - is still happily working away as a venture capitalist at age 71. There are those though who really do seem to be addicted to work...or maybe it is fear of not being able to make that $600 car payment or of being idle. I don't know.

[Lainey]

Lainey, does someone cover your workload while you are gone or does it just sit there? My customers get parceled out to coworkers.

Some of my work can get done by my co-workers, but I try not to leave anything critical in limbo. Otherwise, yes, it waits. Typically I only take a week at a time, so waiting 5 working days for something is not too outrageous for our customers, and I do give my main ones advance notice. They also know not to try to get much done the last 2 weeks of the year because most of our employees are gone.

[Zoe Girl]

Or it can be a way to manifest your passion. I can think of people who have done wonderful things because they were "addicted to work." Doctors who work for Doctors without Borders. People who throw themselves into service or a genuine calling. Steve Jobs. Martin Luther King. Are they "addicted to work"? Maybe, and maybe we're better off for it.
.

I agree, I am intentional about my hours when i go above 40. When I am working on one of my areas that I could do fine in but I have the chance to excel then I will put in the time as I have it. Right now that is planning the curriculum for our extra camp days (when school is out and we provide full day care). I got a rousing congratulations for the last one I facilitated in creating. The other area is doing mindfulness lessons with children in the classroom. So those are passions that I am documenting for future resumes, and as part of our tracking process for our goals and general accountability. So basically I can see what I am getting out of it.

Now when I go over in hours (salary so no overtime) just to get the basics done I get mighty grumpy. I pretty much know the response is going to be that I coule have delegated, managed, planned ahead, etc better. WIth delegating always comes training and managing, and it can be easier to do it yourself. I am building a career that hopefully someday will support me better financially and use more of my talents. I cannot afford to miss deadlines or not be on the top of my game. So it isn't necessarily work-aholism but survival and hopefully thriving.

Did anyone mention yet that

[Tiam]

Apparently many Americans don't even take the limited paid vacations they are offered.

http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20141106-the-no-vacation-nation

That can't be good for long term health and stability.

One reason I don't take PTO given to me, is a work ethic. The PTO is only two or three days and I usually can't 'take' it, and accomplish my work quota too.

[ctg492]

I think???Many are just born to over excide, over excel, over do work, just as we are all born a certain way whatever that is. I assume most realize this now? At my ripe old age now I am accepting this thought and specifically in the thought of my husband. His work hours are insane as are All he surrounds himself with. The Team of associates has changed often through the years, companies and contracts come and go, but the effort, dedication remains the same for all these types. I am sure if I googled it there is a name for it. Vacation? That is when you stay out of the office and "work" from home for a day. To put people like this into a {{{relaxing}}} situation is not relaxing to them, their character does not allow it. It is easy to sit in judgement and wonder why someone would want to die working and I did for years, but in the end each does what they will for whatever reasons they tell themselves.
There was a new vehicle model coming out years ago. It was a time of over the top hours spent over seas. To this day I never see that model on the road and think how many gave up so much so that car could roll down the road. I am sure it is the same for pretty much every item we have. I listened to a show on Apples and the new varieties being developed. I am sure those involved are living breathing sleeping Apples!

[gimmethesimplelife]

Something that I find amazing that I believe fits into this thread - I am in touch with a few people from my college days that are actually jealous of my lack of success per this society's standards. It's not that they are jealous that I'm not making much money - they have told me they envy that I have more time on my hands than they do and that my time is not booked up way in advance and that I'm not in a constant fight with time as they are. I found this very flattering actually and I was nice enough not to say in return that I don't envy them their possessions or their high stress lives. I do believe that in this society you can have time - the price tag seems to be accepting a lot less materially and giving up a lot of what society would have you believe as to success and life purpose and work ethic above all else. I'm glad I'm not living the life of these people I knew in college, I really am. Something else that strikes me about that life - they seem worried constantly that they will be laid off but yet they are in debt up to their eyeballs but look great on the surface. Ugggggh! I'd much rather look less great on the surface and look better on paper (meaning minimal debt and some savings and some investments).

I guess I've made my choice long ere this - I wonder if these people ever thought of this as a choice, though? Or did they just blindly accept the American work ethic and materialism, never questioning it once? Amazing to me if they didn't. Rob

[catherine]

Something that I find amazing that I believe fits into this thread - I am in touch with a few people from my college days that are actually jealous of my lack of success per this society's standards. It's not that they are jealous that I'm not making much money - they have told me they envy that I have more time on my hands than they do and that my time is not booked up way in advance and that I'm not in a constant fight with time as they are. I found this very flattering actually and I was nice enough not to say in return that I don't envy them their possessions or the high stress lives. I do believe that in this society you can have time - the price tag seems to be accepting a lot less materially and giving up a lot of what society would have you believe as to success and life purpose and work ethic above all else. I'm glad I'm not living the life of these people I knew in college, I really am. Something else that strikes me about that life - they seem worriend constantly that they will be laid off but yet they are in debt up to their eyeballs but look great on the surface. Ugggggh! I'd much rather look less great on the surface and look better on paper (meaning minimal debt and some savings and some investments).

I guess I've made my choice long ere this - I wonder if these people ever thought of this as a choice, though? Or did they just blindly accept the American work ethic and materialism, never questioning it once? Amazing to me if they didn't. Rob

I think there might even be a third category--people who are very ambivalent, either about their success, or their "failure" as only defined by today's culture. My DS30 fits that category. He never went to college, is a wonderful musician and poet, and a kind and loving soul with a fantastic sense of humor. Rob, you'll appreciate this--like you, his "day job" is as a server/bartender. Before moving to Vermont, he worked at a really cool venue in Hoboken, NJ. Hoboken is now a very tony place to live, and you can see Wall Street very clearly from the downtown area. Lots of Wall Street folks live there and take the PATH to work.

At that time, I saw a big chip growing on my son's shoulder, and in a bad mood he'd talk about "those people" who work in fancy offices and wear fancy clothes and are so full of themselves. I knew his comments were just a defensive position because of his own insecurities about his lack of the standard accomplishments that usually define success. I was thrilled when he moved to Vermont, because Vermont is filled with people who just work to live and I knew my son would fit in great there.

Yet, I still hear those sour grapes.. he has a lot of difficulty dealing with his own sense of self-worth, despite the huge amount of love and support he gets from his family and friends. I'm so proud of him! I aspire to be like him. He has no debt, no car, walks to work, has tons of friends, has time to write music and hang out. I truly wish that someday he will come to terms with the very solid choices he has made in his life and the person he has become.

[JaneV2.0]

I'm afraid that you speak for many people, ANM, including myself at different points in my life. And what comes to my mind is, as much as I love Mark Bittman and Michael Pollan, I think to myself, are you kidding me? People are living this life from end to end with no time for re-creation and you're telling them they need to cook at home? They need to shop organic. Make a pastured-beef dinner with organic potatoes and herbs lovingly grown outside your kitchen door? No prob! Well, it's hard to integrate our lives and nurture what needs to be nurtured when the balance is all tipped in favor of the Company Man.

Yes, and the amused and dismissive arrogance with which he made the observation--"Does this feel like work?" or words to that effect. Maybe it doesn't feel like work to him--he's chosen food as his professional arena, and he's getting paid to cook--but I bet it does to some poor soul who's been on their feet all day, has children vying for their attention, and maybe never liked cooking much anyway. Elitist ass. >:(

[gimmethesimplelife]

Yes, and the amused and dismissive arrogance with which he made the observation--"Does this feel like work?" or words to that effect. Maybe it doesn't feel like work to him--he's chosen food as his professional arena, and he's getting paid to cook--but I bet it does to some poor soul who's been on their feet all day, has children vying for their attention, and maybe never liked cooking much anyway. Elitist ass. >:(Hmmm.....Jane you have made me think, Thank You. Something else that I have that the people I knew in college don't have today - time to cook. Maybe not elaborate meals like these cooks mentioned, but cheap, healthy, nourishing meals. I also have the time to grow some of my own food - not that I have huge yields but at least some of what I am eating - such as tons of Armenian cucumbers that I have just harvested - I have planted and taken care of and now am rewarded by how great they taste and how I have some connection with nature while I eat them as I did all the work to bring them to the table. Interesting thought and something I am indeed grateful for. Rob

[ApatheticNoMore]

I don't know about Bittman, ok I haven't read/owned the cookbook of Bittman etc. but Pollan has made the offhand comment is one of his books to the effect that perhaps America's rushed and terrible food habits are inevitable in a society that works people to death, doesn't value time off and leisure, only values money making etc.. So I really don't think he's doesn't understand some of that, just doesn't make it his main focus (which he's made the food system). The arrogance really isn't there. Privileged? Sure but shrug. The people writing journalistic style books that get published are almost entirely privileged to some degree - geez just look at most of their educational pedigree, their usually untarnished middle or upper middle class backgrounds. But so what?

I'm pretty good at making time for food. But logically there's a limit. You make time for food on a 40 hour week (it's really 50 with commuting), maybe on a 50 hour week, but on a 60, 80, 100 hour week? It's pushing hard time limits then as there are only so many hours in the day. Even for me sometimes stuff slips, I pick up a salad at TJs for work occasionally even though I realize I should have made my own salad etc.. (usually do use my own dressing). I actual realize A LOT WILL slip, stuff slips EVERY SINGLE DAY nearly, but it's usually not food (because I usually do that). What slips is putting the laundry in the dryer rather than hanging it up, it's the dental appointment, it's keeping a journal (although it's goal isn't anything like the fictional journal above) etc. etc. Better planning and all that, yea, but time needs to be parceled so carefully, it's so scarce. But I still roll my eyes at all the "cooking takes too long" ads I see or hear. Ha, because I usually manage to make time for that.

[JaneV2.0]

I might cut Pollan some slack if I could remember which of the two tossed off that crack.

I certainly cook better, more often, and with better ingredients than I did when I worked.

[Gardenarian]

I'm very surprised that so many people on this forum work so much.
I guess I'm lucky, like Rob, to be in a field where part-time work is usually available, and reasonably well-paid.
I'd much rather have the time than the salary.

From what I'm reading it sounds like most people don't take long breaks from work because they feel that things will fall apart without them. That is how our system has been set up, I guess.

[herbgeek]

From what I'm reading it sounds like most people don't take long breaks from work because they feel that things will fall apart without them.

That is certainly true for me. I herd cats for a living (software project manager) and when I'm away, things just devolve into entropy/chaos and I have to work twice as hard to get back to where I was before vacation. My boss is pretty useless/already over his head and can't assist, so I have to beg/cajole others to pitch in to keep things running when I'm out, and others are also busy so I feel like I'm putting an undue burden on them when I'm out. So I wind up (like I am now) with lots of vacation time and a use-it-or-lose-it policy so I'm taking my time during Thanksgiving and Christmas to minimize the impact of my absence (lots of other people take the balance of their vacation time then too).

That said, I don't work more than 40 hours, and don't work weekends and work from home 3 times a week.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I'd much rather have the time than the salary.

I'd rather have it. But it really doesn't matter what I want ultimately, that's not how the world works. By the way, I may have lost a job in the past for trying to stay part-time (of course they couldn't say this but begging me to go full time a month before that ... odd behavior otherwise) But that's just the way the world is too. I went for what I wanted (part-time) and I likely paid the price. I don't stay unemployed when I lose work so life goes on. I mean it's better to start from a baseline understanding that things suck right? :)


From what I'm reading it sounds like most people don't take long breaks from work because they feel that things will fall apart without them. That is how our system has been set up, I guess.

frankly no the heck way I'd take responsibility for THEIR under staffing. No that's on them, not me. But I don't take long breaks because 2 weeks a year of vacation or so .... at best you can take the 2 at a time and then have NO days off the rest of the year (that's hard!). So 2 weeks vacation doesn't leave time for long breaks really. And that's what most jobs out there offer (maybe after 5 years to a decade or so at a company you get more).

I don't work massive overtime, but yes I've worked overtime, yes I regularly work some weekends etc.

[iris lilies]

I'm very surprised that so many people on this forum work so much.
I guess I'm lucky, like Rob, to be in a field where part-time work is usually available, and reasonably well-paid.
I'd much rather have the time than the salary.

From what I'm reading it sounds like most people don't take long breaks from work because they feel that things will fall apart without them. That is how our system has been set up, I guess.

Generally speaking as a manager, weeks can go by in my arena and things will not fall apart in my department if I'm not there because there just isn't that much change. I am there to manage change, and that's true for managers who report to me. If there is no change taking place, everyone knows how to operate.

But the problem is anticipating change on the horizon and that's one reason why I don't go for weeks at a time is because if I'm going to be gone for 2+ weeks, I want to go to Europe. That requires me to plan long in advance for airfare, dog sitters, itinerary and hotels along the way. And because I can't see that far in advance the sudden "gotchas" that could happen that require my presence at work, I dislike making these plans.

Sure I could pick up and leave tomorrow for a ten day vacation, but I don't really want to go any place that close by.

I realize that's not true for everyone's workplace, however, change happens much faster in other places.

[SteveinMN]

when I'm away, things just devolve into entropy/chaos and I have to work twice as hard to get back to where I was before vacation. My boss is pretty useless/already over his head and can't assist, so I have to beg/cajole others to pitch in to keep things running when I'm out, and others are also busy so I feel like I'm putting an undue burden on them when I'm out. So I wind up (like I am now) with lots of vacation time and a use-it-or-lose-it policy so I'm taking my time during Thanksgiving and Christmas to minimize the impact of my absence (lots of other people take the balance of their vacation time then too).
I think this is the boat in which a lot of people find themselves.

I worked in a company of 60,000 and yet when it was time to test the nameofcompany.com Web site, the person they came to was me. On paper, all of us testers were supposed to be able to test anything. But project deadlines were based on the "happy path" (the assumption that nothing would go wrong; AKA Dilbert's MFU1 and MFU2 (http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2006-01-30/)); using the same tester meant the tester did not have to familiarize themselves with a new test bed or who to call when things went wrong, what that group liked for metrics, and their preferred results format. Other testers specialized in the manufacturing apps and back-office apps. It's not that we were ever given the time to document this all so another tester could step in seamlessly. So we were scheduled around the major releases of all that software.

In the meantime, there were those "other duties as assigned". In my case, that was configuration and maintenance of our testing software servers. Except that if I were in the middle of some hot and heavy testing for company.com (which was around the clock but, fortunately, did not require very active babysitting) and the testing software was screwing up testing of the manufacturing apps, I now had two #1 Priorities. Plus all the other stuff I'd get dinged on in my review if I didn't accomplish it (like watching the annual video on work safety or filling out my weekly TPS reports). Add to that the guilt of knowing that even a couple days out sick were imposing on the rest of the group, and you have a very typical population of people who don't take the time alloted to them.

[JaneV2.0]

We used to feel sorry for the Japanese and their karoshi (death from overwork); now we're living it. I bailed just in time.

[gimmethesimplelife]

We used to feel sorry for the Japanese and their karoshi (death from overwork); now we're living it. I bailed just in time.I've been reading that society in Japan is changing markedly from how it used to be during it's heyday when if you flipped over almost anything it said MADE IN JAPAN on it. Honestly, how many things are made in Japan nowadays? At least basic consumer items, anyway? I've read that there is a generation of young men and women facing fairly bleak prospects and that some of these young men, supposedly around 40% - belong to this trend called "herbivore". They tend to work as little as possible to meet their basic needs and have given up on women also - not that they are gay, they just don't see the traditional Japanese road map working for them in light of today's realities and would rather hang with their friends and play video games - "gamers" I think they call them. And the young women supposedly are fine with this arrangement as they look at their mothers and their grandmothers and don't want that life for themselves either.

I do believe we in the US have taken on karoshi to some degree - hopefully we will unlearn it as the some of the young Japanese seem to be. Anyone interested in this societal shift in Japan, google "herbivore men in Japan" - it's pretty interesting in the sense that some of the young in Japan are giving up the traditional road map - even more interesting is the fact that Japan has a rapidly aging population and a very low birthrate. So low is the birthrate in Japan that more adult diapers are sold to the elderly than babies diapers are sold for the newborn. Scary when you think of the implications I think. Anyway, my point is that Japan, like anything else, is not immune to change. Rob

[rodeosweetheart]

I've been reading that society in Japan is changing markedly from how it used to be during it's heyday when if you flipped over almost anything it said MADE IN JAPAN on it. Honestly, how many things are made in Japan nowadays? At least basic consumer items, anyway? I've read that there is a generation of young men and women facing fairly bleak prospects and that some of these young men, supposedly around 40% - belong to this trend called "herbivore". They tend to work as little as possible to meet their basic needs and have given up on women also - not that they are gay, they just don't see the traditional Japanese road map working for them in light of today's realities and would rather hang with their friends and play video games - "gamers" I think they call them. And the young women supposedly are fine with this arrangement as they look at their mothers and their grandmothers and don't want that life for themselves either.

I do believe we in the US have taken on karoshi to some degree - hopefully we will unlearn it as the some of the young Japanese seem to be. Anyone interested in this societal shift in Japan, google "herbivore men in Japan" - it's pretty interesting in the sense that some of the young in Japan are giving up the traditional road map - even more interesting is the fact that Japan has a rapidly aging population and a very low birthrate. So low is the birthrate in Japan that more adult diapers are sold to the elderly than babies diapers are sold for the newborn. Scary when you think of the implications I think. Anyway, my point is that Japan, like anything else, is not immune to change. Rob

Rob, this sounds a lot like the social scene with young people that I saw in Portland a few weeks ago. IT was a very surprising shift.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob, this sounds a lot like the social scene with young people that I saw in Portland a few weeks ago. IT was a very surprising shift.Isn't it though? This seems to be spreading to the US and I have heard from Canadians I know that Toronto is very much like this too. Being middle aged I worry as how many workers will there be to support Social Security when I'm old given the lower birthrates these days? Good thing I'm saving what I can.....Rob

[jp1]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/21/magazine/will-portland-always-be-a-retirement-community-for-the-young.html

Apparently the NY Times saw this about Portland as well.

[ToomuchStuff]

What is a vacation?
Of course not everyone has paid vacations, just part of life and one difference between a job and "career". (traditionally) Yet if you own your own business, you have a "career" and work for a slave master and don't really have time for vacations for a while. Makes me think of a discussion between a couple of people I know. One a union butcher and the other a self employed person. The butcher was doing his usual B&Ming about the owners of his store making more then him and said another day at the coal mine. His buddy responded another day at the gold mine.
I haven't been on a trip style vacation since I was a kid (think I was 13). I took a "vacation" when I bought my home to get it straightened up. Tried to take one a few years back, I worked so others could go to the company Christmas excursion (takes place after the busy Christmas season) and four employees came back on crutches or injured (drinking and skiing don't mix). In the last few years, my hours have been up due to people being off due to surgeries (amputation, torn ligaments, etc). I've never had the travel bug, and we discussed that a while back (Spartana's thread on traveling), so for me a "vacation" when taken, has been a staycation, to get things done. Nothing relaxing about them, just time to do something else one has to, in life. The relaxing stuff is small events that happen at various times throughout the year and normally one just has a day off for them.

[rodeosweetheart]

For the last 5 years or so, we have deliberately lived in what most people consider vacation areas. We work at home, which means that we can rearrange our schedules and go out ad enjoy the areas where we lived. Many times we have remarked to each other that we have set it up so that what people save all year to do, we get to do any time we want to. It is something to consider in retirement. Sometimes, it feels as though one is on a permanent vacation, as we have been living in such beautiful areas.

(Although this one is too damn cold, lol.)