Do you consider yourself middle class? [Archive]

pinkytoe

11-12-14, 10:47pm

With all the societal and economic change the past decade or two, it seems we hear a lot more about growing income inequality. Perhaps it is just where I live but I am beginning to feel like a middle class/middle income category is quickly disappearing. I am not even sure what it means anymore. Those with advanced degrees and hefty incomes are rising to another level and those on the opposite end are just getting by. It seems like the average household income just to live in our area would have to be $100,000K minimum which not too long ago would have been considered a high salary. I think too that expectations just keep rising for those that have the benfits of the right education and career. Do you consider yourself middle class?

iris lilies

11-12-14, 10:51pm

yep, middle class all the way, from birth to death. Middle middle, not low middle or high middle, just--the middle.

I have no aspirations to rise because, as I've said before, I think that being middle-middle is probably the most freeing of any lifestyle on earth. You've got enough money to do what you want to do but aren't saddled with all sorts of limiting expectations for how one must live, all of which cost a lost of money.

ApatheticNoMore

11-13-14, 12:14am

Yes, completely. (not as a mark of pride or anything like that really, just as I think describing reality if we accept the term "middle class" at all). Middle class is more than just income it's background, it's type of job etc.. And yes it's pretty middle class. However people really should look at median income figures sometime (locally/nationwide.etc.). 100k is the median income almost nowhere in the country not even expensive places (except for a few small enclaves).

bae

11-13-14, 2:57am

I don't even know what "middle class" means really anymore.

"Income" probably isn't the correct metric though.

creaker

11-13-14, 8:54am

Not many want to say that they are poor - and it seems the richer people get, the higher their definition of rich gets and they don't want to say they are rich. So the self-defined middle class seems to encompass everything but the farthest edges of the wealth spectrum.

I think a better question might be who doesn't consider themselves middle class?

lessisbest

11-13-14, 10:29am

Poverty would have been a step up for my family growing up living in rural Kansas, but being poor is just a financial problem, not about who we were/are as people. Everyone around us was generally in the same financial situation. Post WWII wasn't a time of plenty for most people.

We've come a long way baby, from being poor - well below poverty level earning under $3,000 the first year we were married – 1971 – two incomes and one person in college living in a 10’x50’mobile home we owned – we’ve never rented. Now we are lower “upper class”. Hubby’s income (I’m a homemaker) is now in the top 20% of wage earners in our semi-rural area after being with the same company in a professional capacity (architectural degree) for 40-years. But it took a long time to get there……….

That same income wouldn’t go far in larger urban areas of the country. For a little perspective, we live in a rural town with a low cost of living and a labor pool just over 44,000 workers in a town with a population under 50,000. So we draw a lot of our work force from the rural region and small towns in the surrounding area. The average income for our town is $44,000.

Instead of “classes”, I’d say we have “rural values”, no matter what your income level, and you don’t find a great disparity based on “class” in such a small rural population. Even the “rich” people around here came from humble origins and worked hard for their money. Johnson is the most common name in the phone book, not Rockefeller. We lived in a small 1950’s rancher for 23-years (1979-2002) and had bank presidents and business owners all living in the same neighborhood I would generally classify as “middle class”, but there were also plenty of poor in the same area.

There are a lot of markers including income, ideology and emotions, used to determine “middle class”, but it’s different things to different people, and where you live is another marker – urban or rural, big city or town, has a lot to do with it. We’re the same simple hard-working people we’ve always been, no matter what level our income is. As I see it, income and “class” is something the government uses for tax purposes, and is not a dictate on how I live, or am treated where I live.

If you just check income for your area, the top 20% of income earners are usually considered “upper class”, the lower 20% “poor”, and that middle 60% is considered middle class. Some consider $30,000 to $70,000 a year as “middle class”.

I recently read these WORLD income statistics and jotted them down in my “Book of Odd Knowledge” because I found them interesting, and these numbers put income in a world perspective.

If you make $35,000 a year, you are in the top 4.6% richest people in the world.
$50,000 – top .98% (note the period in the front of the number)
$75,000 – top .82%
$100,000 – top .66%

Now who’s the “middle class”?

pinkytoe

11-13-14, 11:27am

Yes it is a moving target dependent on many factors. I don't really like the term "class" and all it implies - I guess I mean middle income but even that varies by where one lives. I think I ponder it because I grew up in a time when it felt like most of the "folks" around me came from similar backgrounds. Pretentiousness was never apparent even among those with greater wealth so one never really judged someone by their income or possessions. There were always one or two families with the proverbial house on the hill and a Cadillac but that was it. Things have certainly changed and I am grappling with it as we try to figure out where to move ourselves once we retire.

Rogar

11-13-14, 11:55am

I'm solid middle class and maybe on the lower end. From a non-money perspective I worked much of my career in American manufacturing. The neighborhood in which I live is mostly 50's ranches and of my two immediate neighbors, one is a retired postal worker and one drives a cement truck. And my car is a pickup truck. I'd suppose those are some decent middle class signals. Income wise I probably fall into a boarder line between middle class and poverty levels, but with my home paid off and some conservative spending habits it seems like I'm basically pretty wealthy.

catherine

11-13-14, 12:21pm

kib

11-13-14, 12:22pm

Maybe it's just that the word "class" doesn't belong in our terminology any more; it implies a social caste system with rigid rules, and if we're talking about money, we ought to be using the term "income level". I think 50 years ago the expectations of upper, middle and lower class were much more rigid. Making credit available blurred the lines a lot, our loosening social constraints blurred them more. When I was born, it was "low class" to have a child out of wedlock. it was "middle class" to own a house in the suburbs. It was "upper class" to raise prize irises or own a pleasure boat. Today, boating can be redneck, having a clothesline in your backyard is shifting from 'shirt tail' to 'progressive', irises can be raised by the middle class, and people intentionally conceive and raise children without partners. The traditional "class system" seems backward and judgmental and not very useful as a descriptor of anything.

ETA to Catherine: and yeah. my current income level is just about at the poverty line, while my net worth probably puts me in the 1%, so our lives might look almost identical while our financial situations are very different. Maybe 'class' is more how you spend than what you earn? I'm not attending many polo benefits myself.

jp1

11-13-14, 1:06pm

Maybe the reason people feel that they need more income to be middle class than they did in the past is because they have the perception that there's less of a safety net to catch them if they fall and less retirement income security with the end of defined benefit pensions for most people. We're certainly upper middle class if one looks at our income. We have plenty of money to do anything we need/want to do, and save a significant amount, but there's always that worry in the back of my head that if one or both of us lost our jobs our middle class comfort and security could end fairly rapidly and we would end up just another tragic economic hardship story in the news.

JaneV2.0

11-13-14, 1:44pm

Class, according to some long ago sociology course I took, is figured on a matrix of income, net worth, education, and values. Or consult Paul Fussell's seminal book. The indicators have shifted a bit, but I think they hold true. There has always been, and there will always be, hierarchies in social groups--like it or not.

I'm middle class--at the lower end of income, but pretty solid otherwise. Dabbling in genealogy tells me that most of my (recent) ancestors were too, with the predictable ups and downs. I'm fine with that, and if I don't have the money (cushion) I'd like, I have only my profligate self to blame.

kib

11-13-14, 1:58pm

values ... hmm. That's where it gets messy, to me. I guess it's agreed that "family values" - live in a house, have 2.5 kids and a spouse, go to church and attend Shriner parades = middle class, but what about everyone else? A life path I considered but didn't take had me living in Manhattan in a very small apartment, attending a lot of cultural events, definitely not going to church. "High brow" sort of events, I guess, like concerts and art gallery openings and nice restaurants, because I find those things enjoyable, probably mixed with a protest arrest or two for things I don't find so enjoyable. So ... that would have made me upper class? or would it have made me lower class because I was living in 350 square feet with a record and no car? or would I have been middle class because maintaining living space and a modicum of social activity left me with a small savings account but no real net worth?

ApatheticNoMore

11-13-14, 2:17pm

values ... hmm. That's where it gets messy, to me. I guess it's agreed that "family values" - live in a house, have 2.5 kids and a spouse

well religion is it's own thing as people may hold many different beliefs but the rest yes it's very consistent. Almost all the people I work with can be characterized by certain aspects like that, yes they try for a house in the suburbs, yes it's got to be in a good school district etc.!

A life path I considered but didn't take had me living in Manhattan in a very small apartment, attending a lot of cultural events, definitely not going to church. "High brow" sort of events, I guess, like concerts and art gallery openings and nice restaurants, because I find those things enjoyable, probably mixed with a protest arrest or two for things I don't find so enjoyable.

the people most likely to get arrested for protests are mostly those that maybe could have had money (middle class background) but have eschewed it (to do social justice type work etc.). So they aren't mostly all that middle class. Well those protest arrest may well impact one's ability to get a job much less a middle class job, they do do criminal background checks you know (and credit checks etc.). I make no comment on whether it's worth it (I can't even stay in the office if there's a protest going on below sometimes - it's not a protest of my company or anything, just a busy area) but it's living dangerously that ... people don't do middle class jobs to be radicals.

kib

11-13-14, 2:23pm

But that's what I'm saying. So if I earned $61K a year living in Manhattan but I attended Occupy and got myself arrested, I'm no longer middle class? (a lot of protestors get arrested who are not bat wielding lunatics but simple sitters who agree to be arrested for a cause.) What would I be, then? Or was I never middle class, because I had too much education and too little real estate? Can you be radical and also middle class, or does that "middle" refer to all things, including passion?

ApatheticNoMore

11-13-14, 2:28pm

But that's what I'm saying. So if I earned $51K a year living in Manhattan but I attended Occupy and got myself arrested, I'm no longer middle class?

well if you could no longer get a middle class income because of having an arrest record maybe, but I'm not sure that would happen or anything, is it a misdemeanor or a felony, how heavily due they employers check misdemeanors if it's a misdemeanor? I think it probably scares a lot of people economically but how rational that is I don't know. I've never had a professional job they didn't do some background checks for though, including a credit check as well as criminal checks. Not that I think most middle class people are by nature activists etc. regardless of any fear of consequences or anything.

kib

11-13-14, 2:32pm

Ok, so you're saying the protest arrest might have cost me my middle class income. Very true. But if it didn't? If I was "alternative" in every aspect of my life except my 9-5 corporate straitjacket income, am I middle class?

I'm basically saying that I think I've always been categorically middle-upper middle class as far as $. And I have never been any of the other things I associate with being in the middle.

JaneV2.0

11-13-14, 2:33pm

I think "values" comprise a vast smorgasbord, but I'd guess that honesty, responsibility, and industriousness are among accepted middle class values. I would add love of or respect for education (formal or otherwise) and community involvement or service. Others?

ETA: Note income is only one indicator--you could take a vow of poverty, work for the Little Sisters of the Poor, and if your family background, education, and values warranted it, you would be considered middle class.

kib

11-13-14, 2:45pm

Yes but ... how many people don't have those values? Offhand I don't know personally know anyone, of any income level, who doesn't ascribe those values to themselves, so how is this a distinguishing factor? It's sort of like waving the flag of American Ingenuity. Sure, Americans are creative ... and so is everyone else.

rodeosweetheart

11-13-14, 3:03pm

I have to say, I like the polo pony test. It reminds me of Ralph Cramden and his string of "Po LA po nies."

I actually did attend polo matches as a child, but I don't think that made me upper class. It was my understanding, then and now, that you had to be able to afford the string of polo ponies to be upper class, wealthy.

So I'm not sure how the polo pony test plays out in real life, nowadays. But I'm willing to consider it as the test.

Alan

11-13-14, 3:13pm

I don't think value defines a class, although a class may share common values. To me, upper/lower/middle class is an economic distinction. If you're not rich and not poor, you're middle.

I've fit into two of those categories in my life, poor and middle. I may change at some point, returning to poor or becoming rich, although I'm currently solidly middle. Will my values change as my income classification does? I would hope not.

iris lilies

11-13-14, 3:15pm

ApatheticNoMore

11-13-14, 3:31pm

Take this interesting quiz:

MIDDLING Your habits and perspectives most resemble those of middle-class Americans.

I would add love of or respect for education (formal or otherwise) and community involvement or service. Others?

I don't know many people who have TIME for community involvement really (well it helps not to be raising kids at the time). And I think a lot of people see education as mainly instrumental -> in order to get a good job.

ETA: Note income is only one indicator--you could take a vow of poverty, work for the Little Sisters of the Poor, and if your family background, education, and values warranted it, you would be considered middle class

actually no, if your struggling to afford everything (not just luxuries or something) I wouldn't consider that middle class.

catherine

11-13-14, 3:49pm

Take this interesting quiz:

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2013/1017/What-is-your-social-class-Take-our-quiz-to-find-out/dream-vehicle

We can discuss the results later. But I was pegged as Bourquise upper, and I admit that I skewed some of my answers that way. Btu that first question--I had strong convictions and yet my answer turned out to be lower class. I'll argue that one!

Very interesting! I was found to be "middling." The question that I found interesting was the one about reading emotions: "people with lower levels of education and social rank tended to be more accurate judges of others' emotions." I wonder why? I thought for sure I would get those right, and I got two wrong.

IL, that's funny--you being bourgeois. ..

ApatheticNoMore

11-13-14, 3:54pm

When I first glanced at the faces I guessed entirely different emotions than the two listed but just had to pick the lesser of two evils (the best fit among the two). I tired of the question, ugh look maybe at some level I'm borderline Asperger's, it wouldn't be the first time I've thought so (though obviously not extreme at all). So what if I am? Stop asking me this already!!! :~)

pinkytoe

11-13-14, 3:59pm

Interesting...I am middling.

kib

11-13-14, 4:04pm

Bourgeois Vous: Your habits and perspectives most resemble those of upper-middle-class Americans."

As usual I had arguments for almost every question, though. It seems like a lot of the "upper class" answers corresponded to thinking of other people as less important than oneself, or being unaware of the perspective of other people, or being above the rules. Being raised by liberals and being raised as a woman, I was definitely not given that message, had nothing to do with our money. And I agree with you about question #1, Iris, it wasn't about impressing anyone.

Gotta also say, i seem to have arrived at my outcome by answering nearly every question opposite of what was intended. Got low class points for my caring driving habits, upper class points for my fashion choices, which are all based on hunting thrift store secret treasures. But still fun, thanks.

dmc

11-13-14, 4:15pm

Nope.

JaneV2.0

11-13-14, 4:27pm

I don't think value defines a class, although a class may share common values. To me, upper/lower/middle class is an economic distinction. If you're not rich and not poor, you're middle.

I've fit into two of those categories in my life, poor and middle. I may change at some point, returning to poor or becoming rich, although I'm currently solidly middle. Will my values change as my income classification does? I would hope not.

Sociologists would disagree, unless something has changed since I was in school. And that makes perfect sense to me, though in this wealth-obsessed country, that might be a difficult concept for some.

JaneV2.0

11-13-14, 4:41pm

I scored "middling," not surprisingly.

JaneV2.0

11-13-14, 5:13pm

Very interesting! I was found to be "middling." The question that I found interesting was the one about reading emotions: "people with lower levels of education and social rank tended to be more accurate judges of others' emotions." I wonder why? I thought for sure I would get those right, and I got two wrong. ... ..

When even your life is potentially subject to the whims of your "betters," it's important to be able to judge which way to jump, so to speak.

pinkytoe

11-13-14, 5:30pm

"people with lower levels of education and social rank tended to be more accurate judges of others' emotions."
I work among highly educated professionals and professors. Think Harvards MBAs and PhDs. Even though I coexist with them, I am not of that demographic so this quote resonates with me. I find that upper income individuals often exist and operate almost solely in silos among their own kind. It never ceases to amaze me how insensitive they can be with offhand remarks that I find condescending or patronizing. It just doesn't even register with them. It is interesting to observe life from the middle. As Dh always say, theirs stinks too.

catherine

11-13-14, 5:48pm

When even your life is potentially subject to the whims of your "betters," it's important to be able to judge which way to jump, so to speak.

Yeah, I can see that. Also, I think that formal education and dependence upon relying on our heads vs. our sense experiences has dulled our ability to intuit. It's like culture, civilization, education, security, insulation, and denial are the six degrees of separation between our basic, human selves and our highfalutin' selves.

kib

11-13-14, 5:56pm

Damn you, Iris Lilies! The curse of the interesting online quiz. Ah well, at least I can now rest assured I know more about global warming than advert slogans... and shamefully little about classical villains or domestic terrorism.

kib

11-13-14, 6:04pm

When even your life is potentially subject to the whims of your "betters," it's important to be able to judge which way to jump, so to speak. Sorry to be so contradictory today, Jane ... I do agree with this, but my facial weather gauge came courtesy of a whacko parent; once again I've got the 'lower class' ability, but not because of money issues.

IshbelRobertson

11-13-14, 6:05pm

They say I am bourgoise vous (by American standards)!

lessisbest

11-13-14, 6:08pm

Thanks for sharing the link for the test. I was middling, which wasn't surprising at all.

JaneV2.0

11-13-14, 6:20pm

Sorry to be so contradictory today, Jane ... I do agree with this, but my facial weather gauge came courtesy of a whacko parent; once again I've got the 'lower class' ability, but not because of money issues.

Haha--your "contradictoriness" was lost on me. I'll have to check and see how I did on the faces, but I usually look at peoples' mouths for clues, so I don't expect much.

Alan

11-13-14, 7:44pm

I'm middling. Not surprising for a middle aged, middle class, middle manager from mid-America.

Lainey

11-13-14, 8:37pm

Haha--your "contradictoriness" was lost on me. I'll have to check and see how I did on the faces, but I usually look at peoples' mouths for clues, so I don't expect much.

I had read years ago that women were better than men, on average, at assessing facial clues. I also think it's something to do with being raised with a caretaking mindset, so you're always making sure everyone is doing okay.

Maybe it's similar to seeing the reactions of others in a public place when a baby is crying - many women turn their heads towards the crying baby, while many men just go about their business. It's not all women, and it's not all the time, but I've witnessed it enough that I've wondered if it's in the genes somehow.

But to answer the original question, I'm in the middle class but as others have said, I'm well aware I'm a step away from poverty via a sudden severe chronic illness or disability. The shift from jobs with pensions and health insurance to 401(k)s and high deductible/high cost health insurance has pushed many from a middle-class to paycheck to paycheck living. Our new world order.

iris lilies

11-13-14, 9:05pm

Oh I have a lot to say about this quiz. A lot! First all, I will admit some dishonesty since I claimed to not be aspirational for social climbing, yet, I skewed some of my answers toward what I thought they wanted for the upper class. So I took the test again and came out with the same BOURGEOIS VOUS results.

A few of the questions I felt VERY strongly about such as the first one. I think it is way cool when my neighbors get an old car like DH's 1979 450 SL Benz. We had 4 old Benz 450 SLs in our immediate neighborhood until recently. I loved it when new neighbors moved in with these cars and when an existing neighbor bought one. I wanted to to have a neighborhood 450 SL rally! Shared interests are what identifies a tribe. And in real life I doubt that the upper class, whoever they are, care a fig about what people drive, and if a buddy does come up with a newer model of their choice marque it's just one more topic of conversation to cement their bond.

I honestly thought that phone landline owners would be more wealthy. wrong! I also thought that little interest in brands signaled upper class, but instead, it's considered "proletariot" and therefore working class. Go proles! :D I care nothing for brands in clothing and most other things. The face recognition thing--I predicted incorrectly which responses meant lower class. I postulated that lower class=hard scrabble=tougher life, therefore they would tend to see anger and bad feelings more often than calm & benign feelings. wrong! I guessed 2 of the 3 faces correctly, but I was sure of only the first one, I knew the woman was smiling. I wondered about raising children as resilient or with high self esteem as better, but since I personally think that resilience builds self-esteem, I answered "resiliant." Oops, another wrong answer if I wish to be considered upper class. :D

But most of the other questions were easy to predict as to which answer meant lower, middle, or upper class.

I think it was the 2X annual dentist visit, scads of books in our house, and vegetables (oh they have no freaking idea how much we spend on vegetables, it's insane!!! ) that propelled me into bourgeois territory. And yep catherine, that's pretty funny. :laff:

iris lilies

11-13-14, 9:16pm

Sorry to be so contradictory today, Jane ... I do agree with this, but my facial weather gauge came courtesy of a whacko parent; once again I've got the 'lower class' ability, but not because of money issues. Well, also you are a woman and I would guess that women are better face readers than men are.

I also had the same thought as ANM,being a little bit Aspie myself, I may not read faces well and frankly (being bourgeois) dont' really care to! haha.

jrpoole59

11-13-14, 9:22pm

Being forced to retire on Social Security a couple years ago due to a hemorraghic stroke at age 52, I now consider myself out if the middle class, on the low side.

ApatheticNoMore

11-13-14, 9:26pm

- I kind of don't care what car the neighbors drive (especially if it's the exact car I drive, sheesh I already have that car, why should I care?).
- I don't' care about brands per se, however there ARE brands whose style I like, so ... it's an indirect way of having some fondness for brands even if it's not really about having a brand tag I guess, but mostly that's I don't care
- I didn't think who would guess what about the faces I just strained under my inability to answer those types of questions and picked a reply
- I picked resilience over self-esteem. I certainly respect it more

- I think it was the 2X annual dentist visit

yea usually but lately I've scarcely had time, I know I should ...

- scads of books in our house,

yes

-and vegetables (oh they have no freaking idea how much we spend on vegetables, it's insane!!! ) that propelled me into bourgeois territory.

I buy organic vegetables whenever possible, so of course they're more than $5. But it's middle class I guess.

kib

11-13-14, 10:08pm

JaneV2.0

11-13-14, 10:47pm

Vegetables. I wonder how much of that is culture, and how much is just availability; food deserts aren't known for nice produce. $5 a week? Even in season, I am sure I spend $10 a day on produce unless I've managed to grow some of my own.

But again, some of these are so off the rails. Yes, I have good dental care. I go to Mexico and get it for $35 per cleaning/exam.

Clothing ... like I said, nothing floats my boat like finding some unlabeled thing for $5 and thinking omg, the seams. the zipper. when was the last time I saw this quality of wool. what IS this? Chasing down info on something that seems truly out of the ordinary is fun, it's not a matter of a label at all.

Emotion recognition ... it's my theory that women are better at it because women are expected to anticipate and accede to the wishes of others, more so than men are. Times are a changin', but for someone bred to please, it's a vital part of the toolbox.

Some days, I hate to admit, I waste that much produce.

I used to go to the dentist 3 times a year. Now I go as needed. Cuts way down on my stress.

Clothes with expensive labels, meh. They impress me only if I got a great deal at a discounter or thrift shop, and can brag about that.

That last part--I was thinking about how to put that, and you did a better job than I could. "Woman as toadie," or words to that effect. As in we had better anticipate the moods of whomever is powerful in our lives or we may be kicked to the curb without a shopping cart to call our own. I've met a number of women who lived in fear of that very thing.

Asperger's tendencies, eh? I suspect that goes along with the INT* classification, and I don't believe it's a pathology.

As Temple Grandin said
"Mild autism can give you a genius like Einstein. If you have severe autism, you could remain nonverbal. You don't want people to be on the severe end of the spectrum. But if you got rid of all the autism genetics, you wouldn't have science or art. All you would have is a bunch of social 'yak yaks.'"

I once got a 34 on an on-line test for Asperger's Syndrome (test at Piepalace.com--doesn't work on my current browser or IE now). Those results were described as possibly indicative of a borderline "extreme" (34 being the cutoff). That made me wonder how many ostensibly neurotypical people are just wandering around waiting to have that label slapped on them.

jp1

11-13-14, 11:01pm

I got BOURGEOIS VOUS also. I'm not especially surprised at that. The faces questions were interesting. I hadn't had any idea that lower income people tended to be better at judging emotions, but the explanations here make sense. I happened to get those questions correct, but I would attribute that to having lived as a gay closeted man for a number of years. When hiding such an important part of one's identity one tends to get good at taking non-verbal clues to intuit stuff about others.

Packy

11-14-14, 5:35am

I've got ancestors who participated in the American Revolution on both sides of the family. So I would definitely say I am High Class. Very Upper-Crusty, but Downwardly Mobile at the same time.

iris lilies

11-14-14, 12:00pm

Middle class might be defined by income, but I think it also has to include net worth, and also, as others have said, certain intangibles based on social strata.

I'm in the .66% income-wise but with almost no net worth, no family history of wealth, and can't recall the last time I went to a charity polo match.

Here in the midwest we don't even have opportunities to attend polo events, so that's yet another reason why flyover country is a good place to live for financial reasons. Status markers are fewer and the range isn't as wide. While they are increasing, I suppose, like lessisbest I saw growing up in small town Iowa similar homes and values from just about everyone. There wasn't much variation.

Gregg

11-14-14, 7:32pm

I don't think value defines a class, although a class may share common values. To me, upper/lower/middle class is an economic distinction. If you're not rich and not poor, you're middle.

I agree. Its too messy if you start dragging values and other imprecise terms into the mix. Defined economic strata is really the only reason I've ever had to estimate someone else's class or define my own. During our high earning years we tipped the scales above the government's estimation of middle class in regard to income. Our clients OTOH were without fail the 1/10th of the 1% that own everything and I learned the signals used used within that group as a way to identify them and help insure they could afford our services. They obviously knew I wasn't a member of their club, but most were quick studies making sure I wasn't a rube from too far down the ladder when they hired me.

We've retained an appreciation for some of the things we were regularly exposed to during those years riding the coattails of the super rich which probably makes us come across as either bourgeois or just snobby trailer trash. The point being, an appreciation for a few gazingus pins of the wealthy doesn't make us wealthy. For example, we always loved good food. We got exposed to even better food and liked it, too. Those high end dinners only fit into our budget for a very special occasion these days, but we still love to eat at that level so we just learned how to make food that way. Does it make us upper crust? Nope. It makes us bourgeois trailer trash that knows how to cook. Lets see the politicos chase that demographic!

JaneV2.0

11-14-14, 9:04pm

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_States

"Most definitions of class structure group people according to wealth, income, education, type of occupation, and membership in a specific subculture or social network."
Everything isn't all about money.

awakenedsoul

11-14-14, 10:55pm

Interesting question. My dad's family is "old money". My mom's parents worked in a gas station. My mom was and is an impeccable housekeeper and homemaker. Our house was just gorgeous because of her. She always looked beautiful and put together. I've made great money when touring with Broadway shows, and have struggled as the "working poor" when teaching ballet and yoga. I definitely like being rich much better than being poor! Currently I live in a working class neighborhood. My parents live in a stunning part of the Bay Area. It's interesting to go back and forth between the two.
I've been told that I look upper class. When I was in Sugar Babies, the director took me out of one of the skits because he said I looked too sophisticated. (It was a burlesque style show.) "You look like you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth," he explained. "I was," I answered. He's very perceptive. He wrote a new skit for me, where I played a fortune teller. My roommate at the time said, "Yeah, you can be wearing hiking boots and leggings, and still look classy." So much of casting is about how you look. The owner of our health food store told me that my bone structure makes me look wealthy. I think he sizes up his clientele. This is kind of a poor area, and it's hard to stay in business. His shop has closed...
I've also inherited some beautiful jewelry. I wear it because it's pretty, and it was a generous gift. It reminds me of my favorite aunt, too.
Funny thing is, I've lived on about twenty grand for most of my life. My cars have been used VW Bugs, Rabbits, and a Kia Rio. I've guess I'm a hodgepodge. My parents also live frugally, even though they are wealthy. Inheriting money does make life much easier. I used to worry a lot. Debt was a terrible strain.
Show business has its own upper class. It's based on success and who you've worked with...I worked with some of the best in the business, but ate popcorn some of the time to make that happen.
Am I middle class? I'm not sure. I don't really care. Artists are sort of no class. It's up and down. I was born into very fortunate circumstances. However, the wealthy people I know are very disciplined, intelligent, and focused.

Polliwog

11-15-14, 1:18am

I consider myself middle class even though my retirement income might be lower middle class. Query, how many of whom we perceive as middle class are so in debt that they are really lower class. Is our class a perception or reality and does it really matter? Middle class is what drives the economy and we are losing our once strong middle class. For example, after WWII, everybody (it seemed) could by a house, washing machine, television set, new car, etc. It was so easy to get a job, and the middle class was rolling along and the economy was good for quite some time, until the 70s when wages began to stagnate, etc.

catherine

11-15-14, 8:47am

My mom was and is an impeccable housekeeper and homemaker. Our house was just gorgeous because of her. She always looked beautiful and put together.

Maybe the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. That's how I picture you.

awakenedsoul

11-15-14, 2:19pm

Maybe the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. That's how I picture you.

Thanks catherine. I try, but compared to my mom I always feel a bit sloppy. (She now has an amazing housekeeper, though.) Both of my parents are extremely neat, clean, organized, and punctual. I guess it's all relative. I associate those things with class.

I'm trying to emulate what they've produced on a smaller scale. I do the landscaping, cleaning, and all meal preparation myself. Reading these posts, I'm seeing that in show business, it's really based on how you look, your connections, and your resume. It seems in other lines of work it's more about how much money you make. Our incomes in theater are dictated by the contract.

In our neighborhood, I'd guess that many people have financed expensive cars, boats, trucks, campers, etc. I'm not sure they have much, (if any) net worth. My father used to say that I have champagne taste on a beer income. That's pretty accurate.

Funny thing is, since I don't have a car anymore, I think people assume I must be really broke. They offer to take me to the store for milk, or suggest that I don't make home repairs that are expensive. I like taking the bus, train, and bike. I also like fixing up the house and hiring talented professionals to do the work. I have the money set aside to maintain this cottage, since it's older.

ToomuchStuff

11-18-14, 12:35pm

I've been wondering how to answer this. Knowing as many people I know, I wouldn't say values play a part, because I have seen so many varied values among the same "economic class". By national poverty standards that I have found (and they do vary by state), I am lower middle class. By most of my peers, I am either poverty, or just above. Yet I am the one with a paid for home, cars and other then utility bills, I only owe under $150, due to using a CC to order some gifts online. (still leery about using a debit card online, another discussion)
My economic class does, and will hamper being able to do things with some of my social group, but that would happen with other classes of friends due to other factors besides money (time being the other big factor).

catherine

11-18-14, 12:48pm

Reading these posts, I'm seeing that in show business, it's really based on how you look, your connections, and your resume. It seems in other lines of work it's more about how much money you make. Our incomes in theater are dictated by the contract.
...

Funny thing is, since I don't have a car anymore, I think people assume I must be really broke. They offer to take me to the store for milk, or suggest that I don't make home repairs that are expensive. I like taking the bus, train, and bike. I also like fixing up the house and hiring talented professionals to do the work. I have the money set aside to maintain this cottage, since it's older.

Regarding the first paragraph, I also have a background that was arts-oriented (although nothing/nowhere like you), and sometimes I feel a bit of a conflict there. I am finding that I need to really determine the value and place the arts have in my "simple" life. It's hard, because I love museums and the theatre (which skew to the upper class--my kids were in several plays in Lincoln Center and the people in the audiences there were a FAR cry from the folks I met just 40 blocks south in my permaculture class).

And on a side note, I loved to draw and paint as a youth and teen, and really considered developing it in college. But I couldn't get past, "What do I do with these canvases once I've painted them??" They seemed to have no utility to me. And really, at that stage of my creative life, they certainly didn't have much artistic value either. I did love my improvisation work when I conducted workshops for teachers. That seemed very worthwhile--and theatre in general is about creating magic from nothing more than space, movement, lights, words, and actors. So there doesn't seem to be as much detritus there--theatre is a very eco-friendly art form.

As an artist, do you ever have to work to see the intrinsic value in the arts? Because even though I truly see God in art, at times, I think about the world's problems, I wonder where my calling is. I feel like I'm on a bridge right now leaving my "artsy" life behind and embracing the "soil" of the permaculture life.

Regarding your second paragraph--so true! I live within walking distance of many amenities, a convenience store, post office, pharmacy, and church, and a bunch of other things, and sometimes I just feel like walking out of my neighborhood to get to them. I can't tell you how often a neighbor will pull over and ask to give me a lift--assuming that my car is broken.

ToomuchStuff

11-18-14, 1:11pm

Catherine, I think you hit on something I have seen without knowing it. There are those for whom arts are a compulsion and there are those with artistic talent and a business head or surround themselves with those that do. Even then, some art has a wider audience then other art, (painting verses poetry) which affects the ability to earn from it.
I think a lot of people have a draw to art, that either don't do it (never developed the ability), or tend to get into it in retirement (from the elderly to those famous that get into it after they retire, because they don't have to worry about eating from it).

ApatheticNoMore

11-18-14, 1:30pm

my kids were in several plays in Lincoln Center and the people in the audiences there were a FAR cry from the folks I met just 40 blocks south in my permaculture class

and of course permaculture people probably come overwhelmingly from very solidly in the middle class (even if not rich rich), from what I've seen.

pinkytoe

11-18-14, 1:44pm

I think that being middle-middle is probably the most freeing of any lifestyle on earth. You've got enough money to do what you want to do but aren't saddled with all sorts of limiting expectations for how one must live, all of which cost a lost of money.
I keep going back to this quote by Iris - it nicely verbalizes the conflict I sometimes feel around those who make considerably more. The professionals I work with seem harried most of the time but I guess they enjoy it.
I have never been drawn to that lifestyle.

ApatheticNoMore

11-18-14, 3:35pm

I keep going back to this quote by Iris - it nicely verbalizes the conflict I sometimes feel around those who make considerably more. The professionals I work with seem harried most of the time but I guess they enjoy it.
I have never been drawn to that lifestyle.

Is one drawn to it or does it have a centrifugal force of it's own that has a tendency to draw one in ... people WANT to give me high paid, high stress opportunities .... they knock at all hours of the day and night. Swimming against it is always fighting the tide and draining in it's own right.

awakenedsoul

11-21-14, 7:58pm

As an artist, do you ever have to work to see the intrinsic value in the arts? Because even though I truly see God in art, at times, I think about the world's problems, I wonder where my calling is. I feel like I'm on a bridge right now leaving my "artsy" life behind and embracing the "soil" of the permaculture life.

Regarding your second paragraph--so true! I live within walking distance of many amenities, a convenience store, post office, pharmacy, and church, and a bunch of other things, and sometimes I just feel like walking out of my neighborhood to get to them. I can't tell you how often a neighbor will pull over and ask to give me a lift--assuming that my car is broken.

I'm one of those people that has to have art in my life. I do it whether or not I'm making money. It's just part of who I am. I spent the last two days at Jersey Boys auditions. It was an incredible experience. I just love that show, and eat up all of the direction they are giving me at these calls. The choreographer's asst. told me, "I'm going to be all over you." He's a really good dancer. I felt like I was in my twenties again, dancing with him. I'm exhausted today, but happy. It just feels good to make every effort to land a show. That way, I don't wonder if I could have done it.

I think there are so many artistic outlets a person can have: homemaking, cooking, gardening, knitting, sewing, artwork, etc...It's good therapy. Art helps me to forget about the world's problems and to pursue big dreams. I also like being part of something bigger.

Back to the OP, my impression of the middle class NOW is that they carry a lot of debt. It seems stressful. They also seem overworked. (Doing two jobs for the price of one...)

Spartana

11-24-14, 6:06am

I consider my self working class (as opposed to lower class as I dislike that term). By that I mean I have what would be considered working class social values regardless of my financial situation, education level or even my job title. I worked blue collar jobs - enlisted military and then government compliance officer, own a home in working class ethnic neighborhood, I drive a modest vehicle. I enjoy more frugal hobbies. Not sure what the actual definition of working class is (other than a Marxist definition) but it seems to fit me. However I also paid my house off fast, have a 2 college degrees, was the head of my dept, and became financially independent (a very modest FI though) and retired at 42, and have financial assets that probably rival some middle class people (without the debt load they seem to have due to keeping up with the Jones and a more spendy lifestyle). But my core values are solidly working class despite that.

jp1

11-24-14, 9:27am

Is one drawn to it or does it have a centrifugal force of it's own that has a tendency to draw one in ... people WANT to give me high paid, high stress opportunities .... they knock at all hours of the day and night. Swimming against it is always fighting the tide and draining in it's own right.

I think this is certainly part of it. But also, a lot of people in professional jobs probably don't feel like they have other options, at least not in the short/mid term. I'd love to not work full time and if I could continue to make as much hourly I could afford it. But my roll doesn't exist on a part-time basis anywhere and any part-time job I might find would not pay anywhere near what I make per hour. So I continue to work full-time with the plan of being able to retire at a reasonably young age.