Another good reason to be frugal even when you dont need to be

[Molly]

I just got off the phone with a friend who had an emergency procedure done at the hospital. She is now being cared for by her husband who is recovering from an injury. They are both in their 50s.

Most of my friends are in their 50s and 60s. Unexpected illnesses and injuries are happening, myself included. Those who have lived frugally can afford time off work or early retirement. Those who didnt must slog through.

Every occupation comes with hazards. Even desk jobs can cause eye strain, carpel tunnel, shortened hamstrings and hip flexors which result in back problems, etc.

You may be able to afford cleaning service, cosmetic surgery, designer clothing or other luxuries now, but do your future self a favor and send the money ahead. I had a cleaning woman for awhile but decided to pay myself to clean, and invested that money each week instead. Over a 15 year period, it grew to 40 thousand dollars! I am now dealing with many orthopedic issues, probably due to a desk job, but I was able to retire early and now have the time to work on regaining flexibility and strength. And yes I did exercise while working, but 30 minutes a day does not undo 8 hours at a desk plus another hour or so in a car.

You never know what is going to happen.

[catherine]

I had a cleaning woman for awhile but decided to pay myself to clean, and invested that money each week instead. Over a 15 year period, it grew to 40 thousand dollars!

Great idea! I have never had a cleaning person but never thought to pay myself.

[pinkytoe]

Mr Money Mustache has a recent blog that struck a similar note - he advises to think of it as paying your future self. It is so hard when you are younger though to imagine yourself being older - time seems infinite then.

[Molly]

Pinkytoe, yes I agree. There was some discussion I was involved in here awhile back about cleaning help. Some people claimed it simplified their lives. I countered that it might seem like it at the present, but remember, you have to work to pay someone to do your work. My guess is that a lot of people are on this forum to trying to escape the 9-5 grind. Working to pay someone to do your work only extends the length of time you have to work. I suggest taking the long view. Figure out how much you would spend on cleaning help over 10, 20 or 30 years. The amount is staggering.

I will only pay someone to do work I cant do myself.

[Molly]

Another thing I was surprised about was how many people on this forum either had cosmetic surgery or approved of it. It's their decision certainly, but it doesn't make sense from a financial standpoint. Changing your thoughts about yourself is free. Besides, we all continue to age and that facelift, eye lift, etc is either going to droop again, or it's not going to match the rest of you.

I worked with a very pretty lady who took a multi-year loan for some cosmetic procedures. When she returned to work, honestly, none of us could see the difference. Then the recession hit and she got laid off.

If you want to read some horror stories, check out the reviews for Lifestyle Lift.

I'm sure there are some people who are happy with their procedures, but for myself, I would rather work on self acceptance and spend my money elsewhere.

[catherine]

Changing your thoughts about yourself is free….

I'm sure there are some people who are happy with their procedures, but for myself, I would rather work on self acceptance and spend my money elsewhere.

Totally agree.

[bae]

I ... decided to pay myself to clean, and invested that money each week instead.

That's brilliant!

[Teacher Terry]

I think that the only way that cosmetic surgery makes sense is if you are disfigured from an accident, etc. Basically I would never undergo elective surgery-too many things can go wrong & you die over vanity. Totally not worth it to me. I am 60 & aging is hard but I agree with Molly that you have to just accept that fact & it certainly beats the alternative:cool:. I think it is more important to exercise & try to stay as healthy as possible as we age. Things will happen out of our control.

[sweetana3]

I think anyone wanting cosmetic surgery just for looks should watch a video of an actual surgery with all its warts and have a list of complications. But it probably wont change many minds. I know that I dont want to have anything to do with medical people unless i am seriously dying.

[awakenedsoul]

The same thing happened to me. Because I lived frugally all of these years, I was able to "retire early" from teaching dance and yoga. I am still able to follow my heart and audition for Broadway shows and tours. Years ago I had a lady clean my house a few times when I was exhausted from teaching. I studied what she did, and then I replaced her. (with myself.) She was really sweet and understanding about it. My neighbor hires people to do all kinds of things for her. She makes a lot of money in the movie business, but she has huge bills. She describes herself as a workaholic. I realized I'd rather take a relaxed and committed approach to housework, gardening, cooking, and mending. It saves me money, and it's grounding. My neighbor told me she's anxious because she doesn't have security. I'm fortunate in that my home is paid off, and I am set for retirement. Spending a lot of money creates stressful obligations.

[ApatheticNoMore]

One may not plan for that specifically I guess (and one can't plan around the u.s. healthcare system aspect long term imo - seems too unpredictable to me). But all I ever hear these days is people in their 50s who can't get jobs to save their lives (age discrimination). Plus in exactly what field are the job prospects actually supposed to be good in the future even for the young? Not many.

[goldensmom]

I had a cleaning woman for awhile but decided to pay myself to clean, and invested that money each week instead.

I've never paid anyone to do something I could do myself but I also cannot afford to pay myself. I'm frugal out of a sense of being a good steward of what I have and not desiring more than I need. Financially, I probably do not need to be a frugal as I am but I find great satisfaction in it.

[Molly]

Apathetic, you are right. A friend of my mine is a department manager and has advertised for a part time entry level position. She has been flooded with applicants with advanced degrees and years of experience. Sounds like mostly laid off, middle aged people. The pay is under 10 dollars an hour and no benefits. So sad.

[Molly]

I thought of another example. A 50 something teacher in our area suffered severe head injuries and lost an eye when someone threw a rock over a bridge and struck her windshield. The teachers in that school district are among the highest paid - topping out in the $90,000 range. She will probably never be able to return to work. For all I know, she and her husband were good money managers and this tragedy will not bankrupt them.

But worst case scenario - let's say someone in their mid 50's is making $90,000 a year and also has a spouse who makes decent money. This gives them confidence to maybe remodel their home, send their kids to pricey colleges, take expensive vacations, etc. They may be confident in taking out loans because they are able to repay them. Then tragedy strikes.

I think the best course of action is to get your ducks in order first. Strive to be debt free as soon as possible. If you need to take loans, let it be for cars and college, and only in moderation. If you wish to remodel your home or take a fancy vacation, save the money first and pay cash.

[kib]

I think I have always viewed debt with fear, probably because I was never entirely certain about earning money. It always seemed marginally crazy to me when I heard about people borrowing astronomical sums based on their confidence in the economy or their own abilities, as if they lived in a static vacuum. This probably came from my war/depression era parents ... I am not certain it was entirely a good thing, that worst-case realism vs. powerful self confidence isn't a pleasant place to be, but it made me find ways to build a life I could feel confident about without ever borrowing beyond what I could pay back in a year or two by shaving down to austerity if I I had to. I have been fortunate in my finances, but I think I would have been ok even if fortune wasn't in my favor.

Do you think raising children with a view skewed away from "hopium" and more toward possible worst-case realities would be helpful? It's an idea so out of fashion it seems mean, but ...

[iris lilies]

...
Do you think raising children with a view skewed away from "hopium" and more toward possible worst-case realities would be helpful? It's an idea so out of fashion it seems mean, but ...

While worst-case scenario thinking is fine, also just the practical view of showing someone how much interest costs them is a good lesson in frugality. Like the PP above says, save for it before you buy it, don't buy it on credit. I think of all of the people squealing about good deals on sale next week but once they start paying interest on it, bye bye "good deal."

[catherine]

Do you think raising children with a view skewed away from "hopium" and more toward possible worst-case realities would be helpful? It's an idea so out of fashion it seems mean, but ...

I don't know about that as a strategy with kids. Kids seem to be immune to thinking bad things will happen to them. I've done some research into why teens start smoking and what motivates them to stop. All those scary pictures of diseased lungs and all the stats about how it shortens your life do nothing. (Incidentally, the most motivating messages that teens responded to in one research study I read about were messages that they were being controlled by tobacco companies, so not smoking was more of an F-U to Big Tobacco. )

When it comes to motivation to save money, I think it's more of how kids are raised relative to the values the wind up pursuing as adults. Just as you said, kib, your parents had a direct influence on how you view money--if you ask yourself, is it fear that motivated you to saving, or an appreciation of a simple life? If you value the simple life, good money management is going to follow, IMHO. You won't need fear tactics.

[kib]

I think I was motivated to save out of fear. Not outright terror, and not "fear tactics", but this low uneasiness telling me it could all fall apart at any moment, I should be prepared. Both of my parents were estranged from most of their families and lived far from them - I've met my mother's relatives but to this day she never tires of telling me they're not "really" family because I didn't grow up with them - and I was an only child, so I really felt like there were two other people in my world ... not a great safety net. I definitely didn't look at my parents and say oh, they're so smart, I want to be like that (as I child I was perpetually annoyed that we had as much $$$$ as anyone else but people thought we were poor), but the general distrust of eternal good fortune seems to be ingrained in me. And as I went along, I came to realize how freeing (and actually fun, since it's not essential) it can be to live under your means, look for alternatives, build a little tiny stable fortress that doesn't depend on a static infrastructure to function.

[Molly]

I think the answer is balance. Build a good foundation, not out of fear, but out of prudence. Teach your children to have a healthy relationship with money. The principles are so simple; spend less than you earn and build an emergency fund as a buffer for life's storms. Then when the winds and rains come, you will be able withstand them. And if they don't come, all the better.

I think Amy D did a really good job of this, especially after I read interviews of three of her adult children. (Here's a link to one: http://thefrugalshrink.blogspot.com/2013/05/dacyczyn-interviews-rebecca.html)

[Molly]

Amy D also had an article something like, "When you don't need to be a tightwad anymore". She recommended living at your current frugal lifestyle even if your income goes up. Then, if you experience a job loss, health problem, or if the economy goes south, you won't feel the financial pain.

Boy did I remember those words when the 2008 recession hit! My husband and I both took pay cuts. Our only debt at the time was the mortgage, so we were able to keep up with all the bills since we didn't have any other extra debt to pay.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Do you think raising children with a view skewed away from "hopium" and more toward possible worst-case realities would be helpful? It's an idea so out of fashion it seems mean, but ...

well it has a downside right? I mean they'll take the first job they land rather than looking for one more suitable perhaps because "they're lucky to have a job in these times" etc.. And even if it's well beneath their capabilities it's still "lucky to have a job, so many people have it worse these days ...". I'm not sure it's conductive to being a super high earner as that needs more confidence (like asking for more money). PhDs were doing dishes in the great Depression afterall and were happy they found jobs even (I heard that story plenty), and what if one doesn't even have a PhD!? Right?


I think I was motivated to save out of fear. Not outright terror, and not "fear tactics", but this low uneasiness telling me it could all fall apart at any moment, I should be prepared. But the general distrust of eternal good fortune seems to be ingrained in me.

yes.

There's books on wisely using pessimism as a practical advantage in life (similar to those on using introversion rather than trying to be extro). I should read them :) Because it quite clearly can be - you want your organizations computer security person to be a bit of a pessimist looking for worst case scenarios for example (so long as they don't become so depressed they stop bothering).

[Lainey]

I think Amy D did a really good job of this, especially after I read interviews of three of her adult children. (Here's a link to one: http://thefrugalshrink.blogspot.com/2013/05/dacyczyn-interviews-rebecca.html)

Thanks for posting the link, Molly. I was just wondering about Amy D's kids the other day, looks like they've done just fine.

[catherine]

well it has a downside right? I mean they'll take the first job they land rather than looking for one more suitable perhaps because "they're lucky to have a job in these times" etc.. And even if it's well beneath their capabilities it's still "lucky to have a job, so many people have it worse these days ...". I'm not sure it's conductive to being a super high earner as that needs more confidence (like asking for more money). PhDs were doing dishes in the great Depression afterall and were happy they found jobs even (I heard that story plenty), and what if one doesn't even have a PhD!? Right?



yes.

There's books on wisely using pessimism as a practical advantage in life (similar to those on using introversion rather than trying to be extro). I should read them :) Because it quite clearly can be - you want your organizations computer security person to be a bit of a pessimist looking for worst case scenarios for example (so long as they don't become so depressed they stop bothering).

In thinking about myself and my own attitudes as a child and now, I know I was taught common sense. My father taught me how to use the dictionary when I was 6 and the first word he taught me--and he made me memorize it--was "prudence: the ability to make sound judgements in practical matters"

I was taught it, but not raised with it. From my father who lost everything through alcoholism, and my mother, who inherited some money and set out buying three luxury cars and two closets full of blazers while her second husband pill-popped away the rest, I didn't exactly have a good example to follow.

However, when I got my first job I made a regular habit of saving 30% of my pay--even when my pay was $92/week. So there was hope for me early on. In ways that I don't want to share here, some choices I made in life made it really, really difficult to stick to sound personal finances. So it's been kind of a roller coaster for me.

However, while I do whatever I can to do the smart thing (well, I have done some stupid things for sure), my motto in life is the Julian of Norwich saying, "All shall be well and all shall be well and all manner of things shall be well." And I truly believe that. And it has been for me. All is well in my world. I consider myself to be filled with abundance. I have $186,000 worth of non-mortgage debt, and I have exactly 7,771.52 in a retirement account at age 62, and I still am infused with this knowledge that no matter what happens, all shall be well.

[iris lilies]

I think anyone wanting cosmetic surgery just for looks should watch a video of an actual surgery with all its warts and have a list of complications. But it probably wont change many minds. I know that I dont want to have anything to do with medical people unless i am seriously dying.

I agree with that so very much! Me choosing to have a knife slice into my perfectly healthy, functional flesh would be insanity. And then, the god-awful infections that float around hospitals--ugh.

[Teacher Terry]

The only people I have known that had it had their eyelids lifted because the skin was falling over their eyes & they could barely see. That made total sense to me but they said it was very painful. It happens more frequently then I imagined to both men & women.

[Packy]

Years ago, I was sick for a month--spent the last 11 days of it in the hospital. After I got out, I was sick for another 2 1/2 months--with a weird kind of pneumonia; felt like I was suffocating. So, yeah--hospitalization can be hazardous to your health.