View Full Version : When cultures collide?
I hope this doesn't turn into a shouting match. I just want to talk about things.....without being judgmental. (Although it's hard not to be sometimes).
I like figuring things out. As I've mentioned before, I have my doubts as to whether the U.S. can survive, if the varied cultures (all having the same rights) demand to maintain their culture.
I'm thinking of Ferguson, and all the protests that have ensued. I'm not black, so perhaps I can't appreciate feeling that the deck is stacked against me (in terms of police, etc.). But I do know what it's like to be discriminated against, for various other reasons.
But I'm wondering if the combination of the freedoms in this country, coupled with the encouragement of all cultures to come here, is asking for conflict?
DH always talks about how his grandma came over from eastern Europe and all of those people were so intent on learning English and fitting into the culture. They were hard-working, clean, and ethical.
But now it seems that different cultures want to maintain their cultures within the U.S. and hide behind the constitution in order to express conflicting values/behaviors.
I'm not saying different cultures can't get along. I know that some of you live in areas of mixed cultures, and it all works out great.
But what about the groups that want to keep their own culture/behavior/etc., and demand the right to act a certain way that appears inappropriate?
With blacks in particular.......all the protests going on seem to be something more than being upset with police. Are some of the people joining in because of other problems in their lives and using these protests to just vent in general?
I keep hearing on the news about progress/no progress with race relations, and it makes me wonder if this is a clash of cultures that will always be here?
Again.......can we have a discussion about this without name-calling? I really do think a lot about this and try to understand what's going on.
And I know some of you will say it's all about poverty.........but I'm not sure that's all of it. It's a complex issue.......but like I said......maybe mixing cultures up in a society just is bound to cause problems......no matter what the law is.
My take is at the end of the day, you can honor your own culture and beliefs but where you end up in life, a lot of that depends on you. If I did the things that were culturally accepted in my own family, my life would be far different. I chose to think for myself, work hard and keep going, not blaming anyone. It's that simple to me.
Well, the news has reported that 3 thugs in St Louis just murdered a Bosnian immigrant in St Louis, using a hammer(s) as the murder weapon. Attacked him in his car. Do you suppose this will be handled as a significant event by the Media? Will YoBama be calling any special meetings, on account of it? Doubtful.
I don't know that this would solve anything -- perhaps make things worse? -- but I do believe the US is too big and too diverse to be One Country. First of all, I think "we" should have let the South go instead of having the Civil War, but maybe that would have been worse than what we have ... but, anyway ... we should be five or perhaps six countries -- or even more. The South (where Idaho belongs, so I don't know how we'd deal with that :D ); the South West, the Far West, the Midwest (Central), and North East. I have no idea what to do about Alaska and Hawaii. I don't have the answers, but I know we're in a lot of trouble here ... and I'm just rambling on this Tuesday morning here in Red Idaho ...
I don't think more separatism is the answer at all. I think IL and Alan and I are quite similar, demographically speaking, but we have very different views, and I'm guessing none of us wants to be pushed into a one-size-fits-all model of what a White Person is supposed to think and value, and then told that in order to live productive and happy lives, we need to move to Montana. (My apologies to either of you if you aren't white or already live in Montana). Why would a Black or Hispanic person, or a Jew or a Muslim, or a LGBT or a pro-lifer be more amenable to that idea? People do naturally fall into neighborhoods and groups based on their culture, race, finance and other self identifying characteristics, but it needs to be an individual decision.
ETA: I don't know if this is what you're getting at, but I don't see healthy cultures as being naturally violent or unreasonably disruptive to the people around them, regardless of the nationality of the people. Very few people living comfortable, safe and productive lives are excited about the prospect of upheaval. So yes, it is about money. Money and the justice and opportunity or lack thereof that seem so intertwined here.
ETA: However, if you can find me a group of truly like-minded relatively wealthy pro-choice unitarian (or maybe even Buddhist, Buddhists are ok) gift economy believing inventor-type environmental-advocating minimalist anti-gun social radicals with utopian-ideals, cat-loving people in their early 50's who don't like brussel sprouts, we'll take Hawaii, thank you.
iris lilies
12-2-14, 1:47pm
...
ETA: However, if you can find me a group of truly like-minded relatively wealthy pro-choice unitarian (or maybe even Buddhist, Buddhists are ok) gift economy believing inventor-type environmental-advocating minimalist anti-gun social radicals with utopian-ideals, cat-loving people in their early 50's who don't like brussel sprouts, we'll take Hawaii, thank you.
Don't start that sproutist talk here lady! We nurture an environment where all vegetables are respected.
;)
No, I was more-or-less suggesting geographical divisions, not (necessarily) cultural, though that sometimes seems to happen. Like follows like, or something like that. I'm just randomly throwing out off-the-wall ideas, tho I doubt they're that off-the-wall.
I'm a former Californian (FAR Northern California) and there's a long-standing movement afoot to make a separate state out of FAR Northern California and Southern Oregon: The State of Jefferson. This was going on before WWII, but obviously got sidetracked because of the War, and never picked back up, though it's been brewing all this time. Neither area feels their state represents them adequately. I'm mildly suggesting the idea that there be countries, rather than states. Just something to think about -- not to ARGUE about, as sometimes happens here.
I do understand the idea of wanting to feel more represented by my government and being around like-minded people, believe me. I just don't think that somehow defining territories based on people's ideals (and especially by race or some other huge defining characteristic) is going to work unless people are already moving in that direction by choice, as with the split of northern and southern CA.
And I still want Hawaii.
Don't start that sproutist talk here lady! We nurture an environment where all vegetables are respected.
;)Siiiiigh. I refuse to look at a brussel sprout plant, they're unnatural. You can have Alaska.
No wait, you're pro-dog too, aren't you? In that case, you get the western portion of Rhode Island.
ToomuchStuff
12-2-14, 2:33pm
First and foremost, there is NO way to win an argument when your discussing "race relations". For starters, that is flawed. Race, used by blacks, whites, or whatever color, implies there is more then one. (I thought their was only one human race, anyone have proof any different?) How can you have progress when the basic premise is both flawed and their are advantages to keeping it flawed for the group controlling the premise?
I see no reason to bring up slavery arguments (even ancient Rome had slaves), and property/livestock was bred for certain attributes. Slavery still exists (forced prostitution, green card slave labor, indentured servitude (slavery by choice of debt)).
That said, there has and always will be discrimination. It is a part of us. Wether you are discriminating against going somewhere, because there is a higher crime rate (for safety), or because you don't like someones color or beliefs (or their view that their beliefs should be yours, or else), there is the potential for conflict. Economics plays a part as well (see levels of privilege thread) and so does governemt (forced bussing in the other thread as an example).
It goes all ways (you typically see the black discrimination on the news, white discrimination tends to get glossed over until someone forces it into court records, for example: http://www.tonyskansascity.com/2011/12/tkc-breaking-news-look-at-this-kcpd.html), and cover ups happen all around (called CYA). When your talking police, some see color (white/black/hispanic/blue), others discriminate based on the amount of work it is for them to do. (drug charge for a joint/speeding ticket/legal status)
Yes on the clash of cultures thing. (we are not all homogenous people in one coutry)
Gardenarian
12-2-14, 2:40pm
Cathy A.
I also think that the whole melting pot thing is not working out.
There is a real difference between people (or their ancestors) who *chose* to come to the U.S., and Blacks, who were mostly forced here through slavery, and indigenous people, who had their lands taken away.
Who can fault the African Americans or indigenous people for wanting nothing to do with the culture of oppression that has been forced on them?
I don't have an answer to this problem. Reparations? 40 acres and a mule? Giving Hawaii and tribal lands back?
I have other issues with the Ferguson mess (why do our police carry guns, when in most civilized countries they are unarmed? and other questions...) But as for getting to some sort real 'equality' for all, I have no idea.
Cathy A.
I also think that the whole melting pot thing is not working out.
There is a real difference between people (or their ancestors) who *chose* to come to the U.S., and Blacks, who were mostly forced here through slavery, and indigenous people, who had their lands taken away.
Who can fault the African Americans or indigenous people for wanting nothing to do with the culture of oppression that has been forced on them?
I don't have an answer to this problem. Reparations? 40 acres and a mule? Giving Hawaii and tribal lands back?
I have other issues with the Ferguson mess (why do our police carry guns, when in most civilized countries they are unarmed? and other questions...) But as for getting to some sort real 'equality' for all, I have no idea.
+1
I am not a sociologist or a politician or a civil servant, so to worry about how to deal with people not getting along in this country based on culture or ideology is just futile. Not my job. I can only do what I can to a) be mindful when my own prejudices seep into my consciousness and deal with them appropriately b) look at all beings with compassion and recognize that I cannot possibly know what it's like to be them (black/immigrant/gay/handicapped etc.) and c) practice acceptance and tolerance loving-kindness wherever possible within my own circle of influence.
Stew, not fondue. I think differences can make something much better than either little piles or a total blending of all things, as long as the peas don't get prime real estate over the carrots every time. Again, in a healthy culture where people feel both satisfied and valued and are not swimming in envy or hardship, extreme violence and anger are not natural.
Instead of dividing everyone culturally, racially, economically, etc., and accepting or excusing their sometimes troublesome quirks, maybe we should come up with a list of 'Thou shall not' things such as kill, steal, rape, pillage, and then hold everyone accountable to the standard. I think that would clear up a lot of issues.
Teacher Terry
12-2-14, 3:24pm
I think when people come here they have an obligation to learn English so as to be able to function in this country. I do not believe in putting signs, applications, in other languages. Immigrants have done it for generations while still preserving their own culture/language. I tend to be very liberal but what we are doing is enabling not helping people.
Instead of dividing everyone culturally, racially, economically, etc., and accepting or excusing their sometimes troublesome quirks, maybe we should come up with a list of 'Thou shall not' things such as kill, steal, rape, pillage, and then hold everyone accountable to the standard. I think that would clear up a lot of issues.Interesting concept. Can we include something about brussel sprouts?
Interesting concept. Can we include something about brussel sprouts?Sure, I'll see your brussel sprouts if you'll allow me the same latitude with olives.
Deal. Thou shalt not grow small bitter vegetables.
Deal. Thou shalt not grow small bitter vegetables.Not to quibble, but I'm not liberal enough to support an outright ban, ;) so I'd change that to: Thou shalt not force small bitter vegetables upon others. That leaves weird people the option to indulge in their personally disgusting habits without affecting you or I.
Very well. I'm not conservative enough to ban things either. Except the things we're banning, of course. ;)
...
But what about the groups that want to keep their own culture/behavior/etc., and demand the right to act a certain way that appears inappropriate?...
Like the Hasidic Jews who maintain iron-clad control on the women born into their community? The Amish, who maintain a separate language and refuse to associate with their own children if they strike out on their own? Christian sects that sequester themselves. home school their children, and shun church members who "step out of line?" The FDLS, known for pretty much normalizing the rape of underage girls? I agree that cases like this are at best problematic, and at worst, criminal--but these communities aren't the rule. For the most part, people of all colors and ethnic backgrounds just go to work, raise their families, obey the laws, and don't make waves or headlines. I don't think mixing cultures is a bad thing, but a very good one--it gives us new holidays and celebrations, and new foods, and music, and ways of looking at the world that maybe we hadn't considered. In this country, we've had waves of anti-Irish, anti-Jew, anti-Chinese, anti-Japanese, and anti-Catholic sentiment. We've pretty much outgrown those, so it's on to the next group of targets, I guess.
I have an interesting take since I have a front row seat on this. I run programs in a school that is becoming more affluent, while we still have 77% free and reduced lunch students. So the culture clash is in our school. There are the famlies that I know of as homeless, I know 3 personally. Then there are the ones who comment loudly that their child can't eat anything except organic (we have free breakfast in our district to meet the needs of the high poverty rate, it isn't organic). The wellness committee is discussing whether food should be heated in plastic and I am trying to find leftover food and donations for some of our families. I hear how the classes are separated in at least the youngest grades tend to have some natural separation. The neighborhood kids are still more low income while the 'choice'n kids are put in classrooms later and are able to provide transportation to choose a school.
The worst instance of this was a family night we had. In the parent orientation a parent caught herself in a swear, just barely. Later another parent approached me because she was uncomfortable with how this parent was addressing her child. Mostly aggressive although she thought she was joking. I had already said something to her about not being able to say those things with us (she knows I called social services on her). Now I need a swear jar to see if she can keep her mouth clean, she is better overall. What a crappy conversation to have. But this is not a culture like some of our other low income schools so it is beyond not okay.
The funny thing to me is both the traditional neighborhood population and the new hipsters are heavily tattooed. :)
a) Glad you are finding new ways of peace, Zoegirl
b)--
https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/11702_10152635722922909_4577941845671052287_n.jpg? oh=6fedb1e1dcf495371090e31e8fe85684&oe=55073612
ToomuchStuff
12-2-14, 7:16pm
Instead of dividing everyone culturally, racially, economically, etc., and accepting or excusing their sometimes troublesome quirks, maybe we should come up with a list of 'Thou shall not' things such as kill, steal, rape, pillage, and then hold everyone accountable to the standard. I think that would clear up a lot of issues.
Where we start to blur the religion (or choice to not have delussions) line.
Sure, I'll see your brussel sprouts if you'll allow me the same latitude with olives.
Martini people will be revolting.:laff:
Where we start to blur the religion (or choice to not have delussions) line.
What came first, religion or common sense rules to live by?
ToomuchStuff
12-2-14, 8:03pm
Instead of dividing everyone culturally, racially, economically, etc., and accepting or excusing their sometimes troublesome quirks, maybe we should come up with a list of 'Thou shall not' things such as kill, steal, rape, pillage, and then hold everyone accountable to the standard. I think that would clear up a lot of issues.
What came first, religion or common sense rules to live by?
Show me someone as old as man has been around and we can ask them. (there is evidence of religion based on man's fear of nature going back to prehistoric days, and we have no evidence of who started/controled that. Tribal leader, witch doctor, etc)
Instead of dividing everyone culturally, racially, economically, etc., and accepting or excusing their sometimes troublesome quirks, maybe we should come up with a list of 'Thou shall not' things such as kill, steal, rape, pillage, and then hold everyone accountable to the standard. I think that would clear up a lot of issues.
I agree Alan. But what happens when an area starts to do that, and people start screaming that their rights are being trampled on, and then those who did the "trampling" have to back off....because if they don't, then there's lots of riots/protests to deal with.
If I took out the "Thou's" and "Shalt's" and replaced them with "Don't" kill, steal, rape and pillage, would that be secular enough to un-blur the lines?
I agree Alan. But what happens when an area starts to do that, and people start screaming that their rights are being trampled on, and then those who did the "trampling" have to back off....because if they don't, then there's lots of riots/protests to deal with.
Well, if we stopped telling people that they are justified in their wrong-doing and stopped promoting the idea that entire classes of people are victims, they'd probably stop acting the part.
I guess I'm confused Alan. Were you saying that if people just followed the ten commandments, we'd be okay? (Sorry my brain is sluggish tonight!)
I guess I'm confused Alan. Were you saying that if people just followed the ten commandments, we'd be okay? (Sorry my brain is sluggish tonight!)
In a way, yes. All modern law is based upon principles espoused in the ten commandments. It occurs to me that we treat people differently based upon their demographic, be that cultural, racial, gender or economic class. I think those are stupid qualifiers and should have no part in society's expectations of it's members.
I think I have a few graven images around here; that's it for me. (And I admit I've coveted another's husband, but as I recall, the Commandments said nothing about that.) That martini sounds pretty good about now...
I think I have a few graven images around here; that's it for me. (And I admit I've coveted another's husband, but as I recall, the Commandments said nothing about that.) That martini sounds pretty good about now...
Aw, come on, coveting thy neighbor's ass ... that's pretty close. oh. Ox. ok, I guess you can covet the asses if you want to.
“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
“You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
“You shall not murder.
“You shall not commit adultery.
“You shall not steal.
“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”
There Are cultures that don't agree with the 10 commandments. Personally, I'd go with 6, 7?, 8, 9, I kinda like 4 but I wouldn't make it a law, and if we could manage 10, we could get rid of the thread on privilege.
Is that a graven image of a heathen god in my avatar? And I've broken a few of the other ones, too. Oh well...
Alan..........but that's sort of what I'm saying........Not all cultures believe what "we" believe...be it religion, mores, acceptable behavior, how to raise your children, work ethic, etc., etc. But, in the U.S., we encourage the melting pot idea and have a "one size fits all" doctrine in terms of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I suppose it all was hunky dory when different cultures came here wanting to meld, but now for a number of reasons, groups are here who (because of our one-size-fits-all rights to individual freedoms), have no intention of melting into the big pot.
What our nation is famous for (melting) just isn't working anymore because people come here for the freedoms, etc., but they want to maintain their own beliefs, cultures, behavior, etc. (And the U.S. encourages that with it's 'individual rights' thing).
The problems in Ferguson, and now across the U.S. (with protesting and rioting) although worsened by a number of other issues, to me is an example of how the various cultures in this country just can't get along. And no matter how many laws we have (that we do or don't enforce), and how convoluted some of the laws and rules might get to accommodate the differences in cultures, it will never work. There will always be the cultural differences. We've gotten ourselves into a corner. We're talking out of both sides of our mouth..........freedom and acceptance for all......but you all have to follow the same rules, which may or may not fit into your cultural heritage/genetics/upbringing/weltanshauung, etc. And if you protest your unhappiness with these rules of conduct, then we'll make up all sorts of excuses why this is happening and we'll try to tolerate your bad behavior because if we don't, we don't look like we're accepting folks.
The melting pot idea is interesting as described ... However I struggle to apply it to ferguson. People in ferguson are not recent immigrants with glaringly unusual religions or cultures. They come from people who have lived here for as long as the white immigrants.
To me, ferguson is an example of what happens when a certain group is forbidden from joining the melting pot over 150 years since slavery ended.
I'm walking a thin line here, since any talk at all about "different" people seems to be unacceptable here........but I think that is such a lame excuse Tammy. Perhaps a sub-culture of the black community has been "forbidden to join the melting pot", but there are alot of blacks who HAVE joined it and are peaceful people. And if those other people don't seem to fit in, it is by their own choosing and because of their behavior. That's what I mean about cultural differences that might always be present and problematic for the U.S.
DH and I were talking about this this morning and the problem is so very complex. I wish we as a nation could figure out how to better handle it........whether it means enforcing laws that are there, or being honest about differences and then going on from there. But it seems like we have to bend the law when dealing with certain people, so as NOT to appear racist.
I heard that one solution to areas with large numbers of blacks was to hire a lot more black officers. How will this help? If black people are stopped for something, how would being stopped by a black officer change things? Would black officers not look into things if a black was involved, so as not to go against his race? Would black people questioned just feel less defensive if it's done by a black cop? Would it all be just a facade?
I'm also thinking of the increasing Islamic community in France and the problems it's causing.
Other people have been discriminated against in the past, but isn't it time to let it go and be responsible and reasonable? You don't see Jewish people protesting and rebelling and rioting in Germany today.
Something else is at work here, and I'm just not sure what it is.
I do think we are hard-wired to be with those who are like us, and be leary of those who aren't...........but as I've said before, being "civilized" means trying to separate ourselves from the animal kingdom and that includes totally denying any primitive, hard-wired tendencies in us.
I think there are several factors in play in the current activities in Missouri. It begins with a false narrative that attracts groups ostensibly interested in righting a wrong. It continues once the groups converge on the area and do what people in groups naturally do, sink to the lowest acceptable behavior rather than rise to the highest possible standards. The groups self-appointed leaders, and in this case the President and Attorney General as well, message their actions as understandable, which gives them credence.
The very fact that our social and political structures have devolved to the point that every interaction is seen through the lens of race, culture and gender is the primary enabler of mob mentality. We can't plant the seeds of anarchy without expecting some of it to grow.
Cathy, this isn't meant as a slam, but I have to ask, do you actually live around people who are different from you? My DH has relatives who live near Gary, IN, a primarily black community. Once, one time, one of them actually ventured into Gary and something unpleasant happened ... I think her car window got broken. And ever since, the whole family will warn me with big eyes to never never never go into the big bad woods of Gary. They really have no experience with the community or the people who live there, except this one bad incident that lives in everyone's mind as representing African America. My MIL, on the other hand, worked with developmentally delayed children in the same neighborhood for years, and she has a completely different view of the community - in her experience, the people are downtrodden but doing their best to make lives for themselves.
Part of my extreme discomfort with separatist ideas is just looking at these two groups of people, one with no experience so fearful and the other with lots of experience totally matter of fact about the idea that the larger black culture is different in some ways, it's looking for its own expression, but it's not threatening. To me, MIL's attitude is so much more solid, because it's backed by experience.
catherine
12-3-14, 11:51am
I heard that one solution to areas with large numbers of blacks was to hire a lot more black officers. How will this help? If black people are stopped for something, how would being stopped by a black officer change things? Would black officers not look into things if a black was involved, so as not to go against his race? Would black people questioned just feel less defensive if it's done by a black cop? Would it all be just a facade?
I've heard that argument, and the reason it was put forth is because the white police are seen as the "enemy" for various reasons--So their presence is seen to be to enforce the law by whatever means necessary.
In contrast, if there were more black police officers in the community, the relationship between the law and the community would start out with a greater level of trust--it would be more likely that they would be seen as protectors rather than enforcers.
I don't think we can put up false structures--we can't give the Blacks Texas and the Latinos California. And on the other side of the coin, we can't force integration these days--bussing turned out to be a failure. And if we did approach our relationships that way, once we cleared our neighborhoods of those "not like us," would we stop there, or would we then start separating ourselves on the basis of other things, like who is married and who is single (I felt deep separation in my white-bread neighborhood in the 60s when my mother got divorced and we became "that family"). Once you start with a mindset of separation, the delicate web of trust gets thinner and thinner, making you less, rather than more, secure.
What we can do is to minimize these perceived differences and give each other more reason to feel that we are all in the same boat, regardless of our primary language, our color, our music, etc.
Edited to comment on:
being "civilized" means trying to separate ourselves from the animal kingdom and that includes totally denying any primitive, hard-wired tendencies in us.
Why should we separate ourselves from the animal kingdom. We are animals, and in many ways they do a better job of fitting in with the world than we do--I know how much you love the environment, Cathy, so I would think you agree with me. Maybe we should become more primitive. Civilization is not necessarily a good thing--now that I've read Derrick Jensen, I'm starting to think about that.
For the most part, I don't see the separatist immigrants Cathy is talking about--stubbornly speaking their own languages, thumbing their nose at "American" customs and laws. I see people coming here, learning the language by the second generation, adding to our customs, and generally fitting in--paying taxes, getting an education, and obeying the laws. Certainly this is true of the immigrants I've known--from my German grandmother to my Chinese and Mexican co-workers at Bellevue College. Not to mention (really, do I have to?) my second-generation Mexican-American SO and his large, hard-working family. I read all the time about young students, scientists and entrepreneurs discovering and inventing and achieving, and as often as not they turn out to be immigrants or the children of immigrants. Dang furriners! :~)
Race is a whole different issue, and a difficult one. Remember Henry Louis Gates, the mild-mannered professor harassed by the police in his own house? Just one example of many. And I suppose Jews aren't rioting in Germany because 1) Germany has bent over backwards since WWII to see that those injustices never happen again and 2) because there aren't many Jews left there. That's a good example of what happens when you let fear and hatred of "the other" build to its logical conclusion.
ToomuchStuff
12-3-14, 1:18pm
If I took out the "Thou's" and "Shalt's" and replaced them with "Don't" kill, steal, rape and pillage, would that be secular enough to un-blur the lines?
Show me where we abide by that non secular approach, when countries who go to war, due just that?
These guidelines, get tossed to the wind, when convienent. (and killing is a form of sacrifice, in some religions)
Kib.......I didn't say it was good (to become civilized)......but rather that it causes a lot of denial and twisting lots of things around and actually doing the opposite of what animals would do.
And also........I live out in the country, but have had some negative experiences with blacks through my lifetime. I wasn't raised to be racist... But personal experience has affected me. Also a big factor is that in a city that's not far from here, it's becoming a huge problem. Almost every night there is a robbery or murder and it's the same race all the time. And it isn't media-driven, since the statistics show it. There's problems educating the young children because of the way their families are raising them. Jane.......you keep trying to make me into someone who is finding fault with all "furriners". I don't have problems with all of them, not in the least.
But the question I raised in my initial post was maybe we're trying to make a situation in this country something that might just not be possible, for many reasons, but also just plain cultural reasons that we're not willing to acknowledge, because of our wanting the lion to lay with the lamb.
Jane.......you always seem to want to put my questions into a racist light, and I don't think that's fair.
I don't group everyone together in a race. But if a large group I come in contact with consistently acts the same way, then I'd be sort of ignorant to not make a couple connections.
That's another thing ........"profiling". What's wrong with that? Its very much a self-preservation thing.......but we're supposed to ignore those feelings too.
My bottom line is that I think the world wasn't made to be all one big same culture. I'm not saying that as the racist you paint me, but rather just trying to understand all this turmoil.
ApatheticNoMore
12-3-14, 1:41pm
Yes the killing via war always comes up in my mind with "thou shalt not kill" as well, but if the wars were defensive (of course I'd support self-defensive on the level of the individual and I'm not sure "wars" should be lumped in there) but anyway if we are we talking about the U.S. - then they aren't.
But anyway on topic. The discrimination against blacks is NOT in the past. It's not a case of "why can't they get over the past", I think that's somewhat inaccurate. Ok it was worse in the past maybe (hard to top slavery most of the time). But it's not entirely in the past. And I'm not just talking subtle things like employment opportunities, it's not in the past even at the levels of official behavior and laws. California just recently made the practice of punishing people in prison/jail along racial lines illegal. What would happen is one black say would do something bad (or one white, or one mexican) and then all blacks/whites/mexicans would be punished in the jail. This was justified in that jail gangs tend to be race based, this is true, join prison as a white and your a "wood" or something like that etc.. But it was pure collective race based punishment. But who cares about some nogoodniks in jail and jails have their own laws anyway and aren't society? Yes and pathological behavior runs rampant in jail but some people in them are less disturbed than others, but what happens there also seeps out into the world. Go to a jail on a weekend, all the little kids are visiting daddy. That's just one example of very recent racial discrimination.
Now Ferguson, I am far from an expert on, and the punishment may have been more economic than racial, hard to say, but it fell heavily on poor blacks. The Ferguson cops seemed to be fee-ing the poor people to (metaphorical) death, funding the whole government with fees they couldn't pay and so that everyone had an arrest warrant against them for some fee they couldn't pay and they couldn't pay it because they were poor duh. This alone isn't going to lead to friendly relations with the cops.
ApatheticNoMore
12-3-14, 3:15pm
But the question I raised in my initial post was maybe we're trying to make a situation in this country something that might just not be possible, for many reasons, but also just plain cultural reasons that we're not willing to acknowledge, because of our wanting the lion to lay with the lamb.
but is there really any alternative, what would anyone even suggest as one? I don't think that cultures in this society are necessarily that well integrated to begin with, but I can't even imagine what utopia one hopes to create with them being even less so. Divide the landmass of the U.S. racially? Ha better not give the native americans the short end of the stick this time then! Send blacks back to Africa or something? If that notion occurs before "send all the whites back to Europe" one might wonder at why (true there would be more whites to deport .... but it's a bias as well).
One may have had a negative experience with a minority throughout their life (one doesn't have to and it would probably be weird but they could I suppose seek out corrective positive experiences - no not buying into a whole race is bad). However, regardless, perhaps that minorities experience of living in this society is far more negative than any negative experiences they may have had.
I'm not saying what should be done...........I just like understanding why we might have gotten to this point. I like thinking about human/animal behavior and trying to make sense of it.
Has no one here had a bad experience with people of their own race? Thought not.
As far as animal behavior, thanks to the Internet I can provide photos galore showing cats and dogs and mice and birds clearly crazy about each other. :D We are all members of the same human race, not cats and dogs. Humans, by DNA, are 99.9% identical, with racial identifiers being about .006%.
Yes--who should we expel first? Anyone want to (in the words of Mitt Romney) self-deport? I might volunteer; there are worse places to live than Germany. And let's not forget all those brilliant young people of varying ethnicities--begone, the lot of you! :D (And goodbye America's future...)
Some of the questions brought up are valid ones--immigrants who insist on practicing female genital mutilation, forced marriages, honor killings clearly act outside of our society's laws and values. One can only hope that between law enforcement and social disapprobation these customs will die out sooner rather than later. Some of these horrors, like forced marriages, are also sanctioned by long-time citizens.
This one of those conversations that can go round and round like a dog chasing its tail.
I'm curious how many of you recent immigrants learned to speak Hopi, Klallam, Siouan, Chumasan, Algonquian, ...?
Has no one here had a bad experience with people of their own race? Thought not.
As far as animal behavior, thanks to the Internet I can provide photos galore showing cats and dogs and mice and birds clearly crazy about each other. :D We are all members of the same human race, not cats and dogs. Humans, by DNA, are 99.9% identical, with racial identifiers being about .006%.
Yes--who should we expel first? Anyone want to (in the words of Mitt Romney) self-deport? I might volunteer; there are worse places to live than Germany. And let's not forget all those brilliant young people of varying ethnicities--begone, the lot of you! :D (And goodbye America's future...)
Some of the questions brought up are valid ones--immigrants who insist on practicing female genital mutilation, forced marriages, honor killings clearly act outside of our society's laws and values. One can only hope that between law enforcement and social disapprobation these customs will die out sooner rather than later. Some of these horrors, like forced marriages, are also sanctioned by long-time citizens.
This one of those conversations that can go round and round like a dog chasing its tail.
Well so can talk about nutrition and everything else. Maybe I just wanted some conversation about this particular subject.
Race is a whole different issue, and a difficult one. Remember Henry Louis Gates, the mild-mannered professor harassed by the police in his own house? .
I don't think even Gates himself would agree with the "mild-mannered" characterization.
I don't think even Gates himself would agree with the "mild-mannered" characterization.
Yeah--I thought when I wrote that it wasn't quite the right word. "soft-spoken" might be a better one. I must say his PBS series (Finding Your Roots) is outstanding.
ToomuchStuff
12-4-14, 12:52am
Well so can talk about nutrition and everything else. Maybe I just wanted some conversation about this particular subject.
And this has been a reasonable conversation, compared to some of the inserting racism into other conversations, that Redfox did.
"but I think that is such a lame excuse Tammy."
But it's only been 50 years since we had whites only drinking fountains and bathrooms. We did forbid them them from joining the melting pot ... In my own lifetime.
Heck, in living memory we rounded up Japanese-American citizens in concentration camps, and shot a few of them for trying to escape.
ApatheticNoMore
12-4-14, 4:11am
But it's only been 50 years since we had whites only drinking fountains and bathrooms. We did forbid them them from joining the melting pot ... In my own lifetime.
but I don't think it's 50 years ago, I think it happens much more recently, and I don't think one needs to go super topical in arguing that (today's news), and I don't think one needs to rely on hard to prove stuff in arguing it (ie economic obstacles faced by African Americans - very real imo, but people will want to debate causation there without any real attempt to suss it out). Laws and policies unlike economics are pretty clear cut.
Not to mention dropping the remaining handful of native americans in places that bear a striking resemblance to the moon. Maybe our 'melting pot' just has an incredibly uneven heating surface.
Not to mention dropping the remaining handful of native americans in places that bear a striking resemblance to the moon. Maybe our 'melting pot' just has an incredibly uneven heating surface.
That's not fair, KIB--More like Mars down your way. Although I will say the native Americans here in the PNW have some lovely coastal property.
lucky them.
http://www.phxtaco.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/tumblr_mcfl3u2ITO1r1iagxo1_1280-e1351228704766.jpg
OK. I'll concede--it does look a lot like the moon...
Heck, in living memory we rounded up Japanese-American citizens in concentration camps, and shot a few of them for trying to escape.I was reading last year(and now trying to recollect the source of the article)about a Japanese-American, living in New Mexico, who worked as a mechanic and stayed right at home for the duration of the War. No internment. I think that the internment applied to those living on the west coast. I'll check on it. THankk Mee.
***
Would it all be just a facade?
I'm also thinking of the increasing Islamic community in France and the problems it's causing.
Other people have been discriminated against in the past, but isn't it time to let it go and be responsible and reasonable? You don't see Jewish people protesting and rebelling and rioting in Germany today.
Something else is at work here, and I'm just not sure what it is.
****.
Pretty prescient comment Cathy considering today's horrific news.
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