View Full Version : Who ever decided what's good?
I wonder how certain concepts got started. I guess I started thinking about this when I grabbed my purse to run a bunch of errands this morning, and saw that the strap was falling apart........but it was still good, so I'll continue to use it. My tennis shoes are very worn.......but I still wear them. My hair is always pulled up in a barrette and is a bit disheveled, but it's always clean, etc., etc., etc.
I just wonder where the notion started that we "shouldn't" wear worn/faded things, or why we have to appear a certain way?
Seems like we could cut out a heck of a lot of unnecessary things, if we just accepted that things aren't perfect, but still extremely usable.
I'm sure to some people, I might even look like a bag lady.....hahaha. But these things just don't matter to me.
But I do wonder where all the notions got started on how people had to look, to be "acceptable".
Blackdog Lin
12-2-14, 9:53pm
I understand exactly what you're saying Cathy - and even understanding it, I still struggle with the modern-day ideal of "looking good".
Sure my hair would look better all expensively colored and styled - but it looks fine and suits me and is clean and kempt. I still struggle with the (idea? concept?) that I don't look as good as I should. As good as my friends do. Silly? Yep.
Same with my hands. A manicure - or pedicure? ("snort") Just not me. Just did my nails tonight - they're nice and short and clean and the upkeep of them costs me.....$0.00. But I see all kinds of women out and about with beautifully done nails and I struggle that I don't look good enough. Silly again.
My purse(s)? Not top-drawer, alas. Like yours, old but clean and functional. And 75% of my outerwear comes from Goodwill - I would like to be oh-so-stylish, but I'm just not very good at it. I could throw money at looking stylish, but.....it's not worth it.
You have hit a chord with me. Thinking about it though, it just makes me more willing to be what I am, and embrace even more my simple living ideals. With my faded Goodwill jeans and graying hair.
Thanks for the post.....
Instead of sniffing butts like dogs do, we tend to size up others by appearance. I think that's really all its about and with constant media it is more pronounced today because expectations continue to rise. I have noticed that one wonderful thing about getting older- is that much of the pressure of keeping up appearances seems to vanish for many. I have a barometer in my head that constantly measures the value of what I buy or do and that's what directs my decision about such things. A broken strap I would probably fix just because it would bother me. But I have no qualms about buying a $5 purse at a thrift store because I don't see the value in a $100 purse from a department store. Recently, my nails were very stained from shelling pecans. No amount of bleach would get rid of the discoloration and I felt embarrassed to show my hands for about a week. Not sure what that was all about. I guess the perception that I might not care?
I think it started with people just not wanting to look poor. An 'upstanding' person was clean, their clothes were mended and their shoes were polished, and that meant they had the time to care for their appearance and a concern about conforming. We wanted to be admired, and we wanted to be accepted. People selling products first went entirely for promoting their wares, "ours are the best", but eventually (see Edward Bernays) they realized they'd make more sales if they shifted to playing on people's insecurities in order to sell things. "You are not good enough, but we can help you."
Upshot: we all wander around somewhat dissatisfied and uneasy about how we look (not to mention what we own). Cindy Crawford wanders around uneasy. Lindsay Lohan wanders around uneasy. Michele Obama wanders around uneasy. And so do you and I. >:(
For most of us, this need to look a certain way peaks during our dating years. Maybe we realize the futility of it all later on, maybe we focus on different things, maybe we just "age out" of the process. For sad examples of people for whom "too much is not enough" see Jackie Stallone or Donatella Versace--it will make you feel just fine about yourself.
Aqua Blue
12-3-14, 12:32pm
Wabi Sabi
ApatheticNoMore
12-3-14, 1:04pm
The thing is I've never been all *that* focused on my appearance really. So I don't see it as a thing that comes with youth anything - if anything one would be much MORE focused on appearance with age as they aren't as attractive as the young right? Would seem so.
lessisbest
12-3-14, 1:09pm
It's all a social experiment from one generation to the next.... I was a young teen at the end of gloves and hats for women era. A woman out in public with curlers in her hair just couldn't be believed, unless she was taking the laundry off the line in her own yard. We couldn't even wear pants/jeans to high school. I worked downtown as a sales clerk in 1970 (18-years old) and was the first clerk to wear a (get ready for this) PANTSUIT!!!! (Such a rogue.) My husband (then fiancé) and I were going to go to Saturday night mass but I had a pantsuit on and would never have worn pants to mass!!! So I slipped my pants off in the car. The tunic top was as long as the skirts we wore back then, and I put on my coat (which reached the top of my knees) and went to mass. I witnessed my future mother-in-law have a hissy fit when my husband (then fiancé) wore an older pair of casual slacks with an open collar shirt (you always word a tie) to church.
Thankfully those days are long gone because today I'm a sporty/casual person who doesn't spend $100 a year total on clothing and adornment.
I think certain mores (norms, habits) were expected no matter what your station in life back 40-50 years ago. People acted differently when women wore gloves/hats, and even a farmer wore a blazer or suit jacket over his overalls when he went to town on business and removed his hat whenever he entered a building. We've just moved past that and have a "new" normal.
ToomuchStuff
12-3-14, 1:21pm
Not just poor, but also weak.
Kings giving an appearance of strength, may give those looking to invade a second thought. Same goes today for criminals (look for not the poorest, or the best and most secure, but somewhere between better off then they perceive themselve and look like a mark).
I wonder how class and culture would shake out if we were all naked??
OMG Pinkytoe..........I probably would have been stoned long ago...... :laff: (and I don't mean the good "stoned").......
I wonder how class and culture would shake out if we were all naked??The cost of tattoo's would go up.
ApatheticNoMore
12-3-14, 2:54pm
I wonder how class and culture would shake out if we were all naked??
probably even more emphasis on youth, because they look better naked ...
People would probably live much simpler, 'cause a lot less people would go out shopping.
I wonder how class and culture would shake out if we were all naked??
Real estate prices would drop here in the Great White/Foggy North.
(To be fair, one of the islands here is inhabited almost entirely by nudists, I do note that most of them flee to warmer climes come about September.)
I,for one, feel better about myself when I think I look nice. Although I don't color my hair, I do get a good haircut every 8 weeks. I do my own nails. Minimum make-up, but make-up nonetheless. I don't have a closet stuffed with clothes, my things are simple and stylish. When I get a compliment, I feel like a million bucks. (I'm 67)
Sad Eyed Lady
12-5-14, 11:47am
Wabi Sabi
I agree - a good concept.
awakenedsoul
12-5-14, 11:56am
Glo, I do, too. I henna my hair, and get a bob haircut for $10.00 every two months. I buy nail polish at Walgreens and put on a coat before I leave the house. I don't pay someone for manicures, but I do like the way my hands look with hand cream and nail polish. I scrub my nails in the tub each night.
I either knit my clothes or buy them at the Salvation Army. I'm still wearing sweaters from ten or fifteen years ago. They are really nice, though. I got a couple of cashmere turtlenecks at T.J. Maxx on clearance. They were inexpensive, but are lovely. I wash them by hand and lay them flat to dry.
My purse is ten years old, but I had it repaired at the leather shop. It was about $60.00 at T.J. Maxx, but will last another ten years. I try to buy top quality things that will last a long, long time. I wear hand knit tops, and I buy the yarn on clearance. It's the same yarn many of the designers use. I don't pay full price for it, though...
For me, looking nice and having a clean and tidy home ties into my health and well being. I just feel better about myself. I get depressed if I let those thing go...
But that's what I mean.......someone else has decided what we need to do to look "good". If we buy into that, aren't we making it harder to accept ourselves, if we don't do those things?
LOL! I never heard of Wabi Sabi and was thinking Aqua Blue was just putting some nonsense word in there. Yes.........it's a very interesting concept and it sounds good to me.
get a bob haircut for $10.00 every two months.
Hair is the one thing I don't let fashion dictate. By now, I understand what works and what doesn't but finding a really good cut for a reasonable price has been impossible. Right now I am paying $50 every five weeks and that is not sustainable when I retire. Just curious what sort of place you get your hair cut for such a good price?
get a bob haircut for $10.00 every two months.Just curious what sort of place you get your hair cut for such a good price?
That made me look, too. Even as a guy, the only places I've found that offers haircuts anywhere near that cheap are the chains where they're done chopping before the chair gets warm. :0!
awakenedsoul
12-5-14, 6:05pm
Hair is the one thing I don't let fashion dictate. By now, I understand what works and what doesn't but finding a really good cut for a reasonable price has been impossible. Right now I am paying $50 every five weeks and that is not sustainable when I retire. Just curious what sort of place you get your hair cut for such a good price?
I go to this little Korean lady who has her own shop. She doesn't have any employees. I give her a $2.00 tip. Most of her customers are little old ladies. She does men, too. I live in a low income area. She does a nice job. I have very thick hair. It seems to be easy for her to cut it, and I get compliments on it.
awakenedsoul
12-5-14, 6:08pm
That made me look, too. Even as a guy, the only places I've found that offers haircuts anywhere near that cheap are the chains where they're done chopping before the chair gets warm. :0!
I've actually gone to Supercuts, too. She's cheaper. Both places did nice work. She's fast, but I don't mind. She's good. The other places want to do a wash, cut, and blow dry as a package.
awakenedsoul
12-5-14, 6:16pm
But that's what I mean.......someone else has decided what we need to do to look "good". If we buy into that, aren't we making it harder to accept ourselves, if we don't do those things?
I guess I just see it differently. I don't wear any make-up when I go to the gym. I'm just going to swim and sauna. But, I do feel better when I take the time to groom myself. For me, I feel prettier with make-up, jewelry, and nice clothes. They don't have to be new clothes, but I do like quality, a good fit, and something clean and fresh. I don't feel like I'm buying into something, for me it's my personal preference. I don't put it on others. I do notice that I admire people who take the time to look nice, though. To me it gives off a pleasant vibe.
I also admire many women with grey hair. I worked with a classy lady in Berlin named Elke who wore her grey hair swept up in a French twist. She was gorgeous! I love the way the European women present themselves. I think they're so feminine and chic...
I go to this little Korean lady
Funny...the best cuts I have ever gotten have been from Asian women. They seem to have an innate understanding of the "geometry" of haircutting. Or maybe its because they know stick striaght hair like mine. The downside has been that I can't communicate with them well enough to feel secure in what I will end up with. I too feel better when I don't feel the house in a grungy state though I imagine it comes from years of societal conditioning. I was glad I went to the grocery today looking fairly put together as I ran into an old friend.
I used to go to a very chic salon and spent $65 a cut. Now I go to a walk-in franchise salon, and actually, my last three cuts have been just as good if not better, for 1/3 the price. I just got my hair cut today, actually, and went in with the intention of getting bangs for the first time in a long time, and I freaked out a little when I got a very young girl with purple hair and "little girl bangs" that were cut straight across, and very short.
I actually love my new bangs, and my new haircut! I feel rejuvenated!
DH and I go to a local salon. We love the ladies there and they have all become friends. Haircuts for both of us is $31; I give her a $10 tip. Worth every penny's!
I'm glad some here also like to look nice. We don't do it for others; just makes us feel good.
I kinda wish many people would care more about their looks. Not fancy, just effort would be nice. If I actually go to WalMrt I leave with distaste of many, not all, the slobby looking people. Took father 85 to Sec of St awhile ago. He says, look at all the crummy looking folks. He asked why they did not tie shoes, comb hair, tuck shirts in and such.
Edit; I suppose it is really none of my concern and they really don't care what I think anyhow.
catherine
12-6-14, 12:16pm
I kinda wish many people would care more about their looks. Not fancy, just effort would be nice. If I actually go to WalMrt I leave with distaste of many, not all, the slobby looking people. Took father 85 to Sec of St awhile ago. He says, look at all the crummy looking folks. He asked why they did not tie shoes, comb hair, tuck shirts in and such.
Edit; I suppose it is really none of my concern and they really don't care what I think anyhow.
When I look at the regular person in the mall or in the airport, I agree, that most could up the ante just a little bit in terms of presentability. As you said, none of my business, but in my experience other countries care more about how they look than we do. Is it superficial? Or just polite to want to present yourself nicely? Or maybe it's why should I care what you think?
We have a large South Asian population in my neighborhood and I would love to wear the silk pants and tunic that many of the Indian women wear. They are so beautiful, colorful, and flattering to almost everyone.
I admit, I often will run out for errands in my yoga pants with no make-up, and when I do, I slink up to the bank teller, or the cashier, ashamed of myself. In some ways, I think our taking care of ourselves is our way of reflecting beauty to others. You don't have to "BE beautiful"--just being aware of some kind of aesthetic in your look is nice. I knew an older lady who always wore these outrageous hats. Her face was a mass of wrinkles, but her hat definitely had panache. She was fun to look at.
My great-aunt, at 92, always wore a cheerful A-line dress, earrings, pearls, lipstick and 1-inch heels--even if she didn't expect to see anyone for the day. I totally respected that, and I have a ways to go before I match it.
I guess everyone is missing my point.
ToomuchStuff
12-6-14, 1:21pm
Seems to me, by your first post, talking about appearance, we hit on that. If not, then you might consider refraising it as we don't see it, or others don't see it as a point. *need a head scratching smiley, here*
I'm saying that we have been taught (in my opinion) to think doing certain things is the way one has to do them to be "acceptable". I've met too many women who wouldn't ever consider leaving the house without make-up, or feeling bad because they weren't dressed "properly". I was just thinking about how these notions get started and what keeps them going........besides the clothing/cosmetic industry, etc.
And why do we think that painting one's nails or having one's hair done makes us more presentable and valuable. I wish we didn't focus on those things. I would like to focus on other ways of feeling good about one's self than having to decorate.
A lot of people are herd animals. I suppose most of us in some ways.
ToomuchStuff
12-6-14, 3:52pm
I think your going to need to start talking to people in the archeology fields. How these notions got started involves things like putting your best foot forward, showing an effort, religious practices (affects how one dressed, etc), biological urges (doing what the herd does, but trying to make yourself stand out in the herd to find a mate), etc.
Goes way back, before even all the, buy this to make yourself look/feel beautiful comes in. Centuries back, if not longer.
SteveinMN
12-6-14, 10:53pm
Goes way back, before even all the, buy this to make yourself look/feel beautiful comes in. Centuries back, if not longer.
CathyA presents an interesting question. The ideal of physical beauty is one that is affected by many factors I'm not sure we (humankind) even know about. Where did the Barbie-doll ideal of appearance come from? Why do indigenous people in, say, Africa or Australasia, clearly hold a different idea of beauty in decoration and dress than Americans/Westerners do? How have we evolved over short periods of time to find certain manifestations of body hair OK or to be avoided? Or to accept tattoos or body piercing more readily? Why are poorly-fitting yoga pants much more prevalent at Wally World than they are at Target or Publix?
I have no idea of the answers to these questions, but it could be a really interesting conversation with people who study such things deeply.
ApatheticNoMore
12-7-14, 1:41am
I'm saying that we have been taught (in my opinion) to think doing certain things is the way one has to do them to be "acceptable". I've met too many women who wouldn't ever consider leaving the house without make-up, or feeling bad because they weren't dressed "properly". I was just thinking about how these notions get started and what keeps them going........besides the clothing/cosmetic industry, etc.
And why do we think that painting one's nails or having one's hair done makes us more presentable and valuable.
"society" is a difficult one because a lot of it comes from one's parents and other early adult influences. If one's mom was an "earth mother", maybe one might not feel the makeup is a requirement, whether or not they wore it. Ok mine wasn't really that stereotype but I wonder if she ever wore make up after us kids were born, it's that rare that I even wonder about ever. Sure she did in say her 20s and single. She was eventually a stay at home mom, so of course the working woman situation may put different pressures on one.
I don't get the painting one's nails either, much makeup seems to me a bunch of toxic chemicals, although the mineral makeups maybe not if the minerals are non-toxic ones - yes I read the ingredients of near everything although my haircare products may not all be the purest.
Thanks Steve for verbalizing it better than I've been able to. I think in nature, it's the males who are the most colorful. I like to think about the etiology of various beliefs we have.
I'd sure hate to think that a lot of our beliefs are just economically-based. What I mean is, maybe in our society we believe everything we hear about what we need to be "pretty" or be acceptable........and that means buying more and more stuff. I don't know.
I'm sure our feelings about everything are mostly passed on by our parents......but at some point it would be nice to think that people question why they do certain things. But that's probably expecting too much from most people.
I'm guilty of buying too much too (although it usually comes from the grocery store or the hardware store). But I'm always trying to think of the stress on the environment/earth that our various beliefs have. Think of all the resources/energy that could be saved if we didn't worry as much about our "looks". I know it's hard living in a society where probably 99.9% of the people believe a certain way, and you might choose a different way.......but if we're going to live lives that are simpler, and easier on the earth, shouldn't we question some of this stuff?
I'm getting the feeling that the U.S. culture is mainly superficial and so much time/money/energy/resources are spent on absolute crap. But this probably comes from our culture being so economically driven.........we'll promote anything and do it in any kind of way.......as long as it sells. I don't want to be caught up in that. It focuses on getting people to worry about all the wrong things.
The good thing is we all still have choice as long as we don't break any laws. I find getting older kind of liberating in that respect. There is a very fit middle-aged man with long hair who rides a bicycle everywhere in our neighborhood - wearing only a nude colored thong and a smile. On some days, I envy him his free state of mind.
Simplemind
12-8-14, 2:08am
On one hand I have to say that I appreciate people who make the effort. Having been in a position of interviewing and hiring I was often totally stumped by how some people present themselves. You might roll in looking like a slob and be brilliant if I got to know you but....
I look at somebody who takes the effort to present themselves well and feel they will make the effort to represent the business well. Effort is different than money. You don't have to pay for a manicure but clean and trimmed nails are nice. You don't need a high end hair cut but run a comb through it. You don't need expensive clothes but don't look and smell like you just rolled out of the hamper.
I love me some yoga pants and I actually go to the gym five days a week. I don't wear gym clothes outside of the gym. I do get manicures because I'm really picky about my hands. I get my hair cut four times a year and cut my bangs on my own. I don't color it anymore. I'm not very middle of the road. I'm either dressed down for home or in public, dressed in a way that would not have brought shame to my mother.
Something interesting to me is how standards of dress/appearance have changed where I work. We have had an influx of new employees from the East Coast and D.C. and they definitely dress up more than the "locals". They also drive more expensive cars. It used to feel fairly casual but these folks like to dress - pumps, skirts, etc. I guess we signal our tribe by how we decorate ourselves. Caring about basic grooming is a different matter I think.
I guess a lot of that dressing up never felt right on me. My skin is very sensitive to certain fabrics. My hair is fine and limp. My nails are weak and split. I have to wear orthotics in my shoes because my feet are so bad (since I was 17), etc., etc....
Maybe I just gave up....just to be comfortable. It became too traumatic and time-consuming to "keep up" appearances. That coupled with some enlightenment being around certain people who didn't really even see these outer things. But now I think mostly in terms of what uses up way too much energy and resources and makes too much trash and contaminates the environment too much.
I'm sure dressing up/expensive cars, etc. are status symbols. But I'm thinking we could do without them.
Maybe I just gave up....just to be comfortable. It became too traumatic and time-consuming to "keep up" appearances. That coupled with some enlightenment being around certain people who didn't really even see these outer things. But now I think mostly in terms of what uses up way too much energy and resources and makes too much trash and contaminates the environment too much.
I'm sure dressing up/expensive cars, etc. are status symbols. But I'm thinking we could do without them.
This pretty well sums up how I feel now about keeping up with fashion. I did 'keep up appearances' due to peer pressure in my teens, and found it expensive and time-consuming. Later, on I discovered that being low-maintenance freed up both my time and resources; it's who I am. I'm neat and tidy, but without the makeup and nail polish. Secondhand clothing in good condition, healthy skin from eating well, and a smile. My friends (even the ones who wear makeup) accept me as I am, just as I accept them.
I think the origin of the 'appearances' concern comes from marketing messages for 'beauty' products. The older I get, the more I see beauty almost everywhere, especially in natural forms.
What used to really bother me is that women would say "Oh.....you don't need makeup.....your skin is naturally so nice, but I need the make-up to be presentable". Yet, I thought they were more beautiful without the make-up. It was just in their own heads that they weren't presentable without it.
I am also thinking of the entire cosmetic industry, and how much energy and resources it wastes, just because people buy into that industry's notion of what is acceptable and what is not.
SteveinMN
12-17-14, 10:39am
I am also thinking of the entire cosmetic industry, and how much energy and resources it wastes, just because people buy into that industry's notion of what is acceptable and what is not.
I think that's the case in any market in which there is no monopoly: cosmetics, cars, jewelry, housing, ... When you have a consumption-based economy, you have to find a way to keep people buying upward.
What used to really bother me is that women would say "Oh.....you don't need makeup.....your skin is naturally so nice, but I need the make-up to be presentable".
I'm afraid the "solution" creates the problem sometimes. Cheap makeup makes users get zits, and then they need more makeup to cover it up. That's especially bad for teenage girls.
pinkytoe
12-18-14, 11:17am
I recall my introduction to makeup as a young girl (4th grade). My best friend's mother at the time owned what they used to call a "beauty" salon. She would bring over tubes of goo and shadow for us to become gorgeous. The women in my family never wore anything but lipstick and that was just for special occasions so all this was very exciting at the time. Unfortunately, it somehow crept into my mind at the time along with media that we weren't presentable without it. Even now, DH will ask me about certain rituals I have - why do you do that? I don't really know...it's ingrained?
I wonder how certain concepts got started. I guess I started thinking about this when I grabbed my purse to run a bunch of errands this morning, and saw that the strap was falling apart........but it was still good, so I'll continue to use it. My tennis shoes are very worn.......but I still wear them. My hair is always pulled up in a barrette and is a bit disheveled, but it's always clean, etc., etc., etc.
I just wonder where the notion started that we "shouldn't" wear worn/faded things, or why we have to appear a certain way?
Seems like we could cut out a heck of a lot of unnecessary things, if we just accepted that things aren't perfect, but still extremely usable.
I'm sure to some people, I might even look like a bag lady.....hahaha. But these things just don't matter to me.
But I do wonder where all the notions got started on how people had to look, to be "acceptable".
good question. I am 58 and over the past 20 yrs or so, have gotten past the notion of trying to please everyone else and live up to their standards.
In most matters my appearance is to please me. I will admit to still buying a few clothes that I feel are needed for work since I deal with the public.
When younger I shopped til I dropped, always trying to get the best and run with the pack. I now have a nephew who has a high pressure position, earns an excellent salary and spends all his free time shopping and buying the most expensive in clothes, cars and the latest electronic gear. What will he make of this when he ages? He does this to the extreme that it is more important than women, sex, family, well you get the drift. I've often wondered what will become of him. For me, it is hard to let anything go which is still functional. And when buying something new like an appliance, I stick to the basic models. Interesting.
Earlier today, I got my haircut and during conversation about cuts for older women, the stylist told me she is going in for some nip tucks because she fears looking old. Although I feel really great these days, one look in the mirror and my heart sinks a bit with the thought that I am finally beginning to look like the older woman I am now. So much for the baby face and long blond hair. This aging standard is the one that gripes me the most. I hear some cultures revere age but this one certainly doesn't.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.