View Full Version : No charges in the chokehold case in New York.....
gimmethesimplelife
12-3-14, 5:00pm
That's right, another no indictment verdict in a situation where white police officers killed an unarmed black man with a chokehold - his crime? Selling loose untaxed cigarettes. Like there really is a victim in that crime. How anyone period could have anything period to say about America now is truly beyond me. Truly the police are above the law and on a rampage with it.....I think it's beyond fixing at this point and I am so afraid for my neighbors who I feel close to as they have brown skin and brown eyes making them vulnerable to government thugs. Not a day goes by when I don't feel grateful for the partial immunity my white skin affords me.
It's funny that I seem to be moving into a relationship with someone I'm starting to care about deeply - otherwise I'd just give up on America. For good. As it is, I'm going to stick around but I don't know that I will ever be able to trust or have faith in America ever again. This case was the final straw for me. Back to going through the motions again. Rob
What are the facts of the matter?
What are the facts of the matter?Facts are hard. Emotions are easy. Emotions win!
Aren't choke holds illegal in most states now?
gimmethesimplelife
12-3-14, 5:20pm
What are the facts of the matter?A simple google search can teach you some home truths about America.....if you are interested please google this case. I guess the positive in this is that more people are going to learn the home truths about America. Now that the economy is not getting any better for the masses and now that we can see the police consistently being above the law - more people are going to see America for what it is. Long term this can only be a good thing.....Rob
I'm not interested in the "facts" as presented by hundreds of breathless blogs and talking-head-news-outlets by Google, Rob.
I'd be interested in the actual information presented to the grand jury though. Have you looked at that?
gimmethesimplelife
12-3-14, 5:28pm
Facts are hard. Emotions are easy. Emotions win!Bypass me and google the facts then. Prepl yourself....America is going to look very ugly this time. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-3-14, 5:39pm
Aren't choke holds illegal in most states now?Why would the police care about chokeholds being illegal? I can't speak for the law written in the State of New York but the police seem to be immune from and above laws at this point. Why would they care if such is illegal in today's America? Rob
Here's a video of the event. Tell me details about the chokehold you see, Rob. What sort of chokehold is it? Include your opinion on the witnesses hearing the fellow saying "I can't breath, I can't breath".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1ka4oKu1jo
Also, what technical background do you have in the combative arts?
Why would they care if such is illegal in today's America? Rob
Probably because they get disciplined and perhaps fired for using them inappropriately, and even have their actions subject to criminal or civil penalties?
So what should the police have done, if they thought he was doing something illegal (for the second time) and he wasn't going to go with them peacefully? How do you force him to go? It's really unfortunate that the man died......he was severely overweight and just the struggle probably killed him. But what are you supposed to do, in order to get someone like this guy to follow your orders? I fear even without the "chokehold" he may have had an infarct. But seriously.......how can you deal with someone that big who doesn't want to go along with the police?
If Those People can jump to conclusions, so can I: Cigarettes have killed millions of people. He probably sold them to underage kids, too. I suppose the unpackaged, unlicensed cigarettes were adulterated with some illegal substance and/or stolen. It's not very sanitary, either, and big cities have contagious diseases floating around. The perpetrator looks like he was but one New York-Style Pizza away from a coronary, anyhow. The pot-stirring news media(notice I didn't say "liberal", because it isn't) just selectively reported factoids. All that matters to them is: White police kill black man. You heard it first from littlebittyme. Hope that helps you some. Thank me.
Jesse Jackson is already stirring the pot. The real question is this: does New York burn like Ferguson did?
Doesn't that video pretty much exonerate the cop?
Doesn't that video pretty much exonerate the cop?
Yossarian, to Rob and the others against this decision, that doesn't matter. The facts don't matter.
Here's a thought, though: you resist arrest, try to go for a cop's gun, whatever, all bets are off. But for Rob and the "po-lice are keeping the brothers down" crowd, the thug "dindu nuffin." Whitey is the problem, not the brothers. A black guy could murder a cop, but the "dindu nuffin" crowd would still be wailing that the thug dindu nuffin. He was oppressed and had to do something to his opressors, or so the thinking goes. Plenty of black folks have been on Twitter calling for the murder, rape, and pillage of Whitey since Ferguson.
Interesting: NY had known chokeholds were a problem when they were originally banned in 1993:
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/24/nyregion/kelly-bans-choke-holds-by-officers.html
gimmethesimplelife
12-3-14, 10:24pm
How do I put this in a way that is non-combative and in line with my volunteering as a mod here? Hmmmmm.....Here goes. Something I don't think the "get the facts" crowd gets - and let me preface this with my saying I'm not against getting the facts - the problem with this crowd that I can see, the BIG GLARING PROBLEM, the elephant in the room that this crowd refuses/chooses not to see - is this : To those who have been downtrodden for whatever reason - facts don't matter. Perceptions do. Get this? That's a fact for the downtrodden. That facts lose merit and perceptions mean more. This is why the downtrodden can be stirred up to acts that make such good drama for the network news.
Whether or not the get the facts crowd even has the ability to deal with this simple truth, lack of facing it as it is is not going to make it go away. I myself can totally understand how perception matters more than facts (and I have a degree in Marketing from NAU with a 3.6 GPA and a minor in German, so hopefully I have some functioning brain cells) - when you have no belief or faith in the system you don't believe in facts as you view them as potential weapons to be used against you. True story. Perception matters more than facts to those at the bottom of the ladder. If there's one thing some posters learn here from my participation, please let it be this. Perception is what moves those at the bottom of the ladder. Whether that's good or bad or logical - all moot points. It just is this way and it's been this way as far back as I can remember. If you can't deal with that reality, be glad you are not living it is all I can say.
Now where do I find myself on this spectrum you ask? I'd like to think of myself as 50/50 facts/perception - this to me is a humane adult. Some facts and some emotion/perception to temper the facts. But when it comes to people on the lower end of the scale and how they are treated by "authority" or the global marketplace or society in general - more perception for me as I have known terror of America and once you have you never forget it. Perhaps you can work on forgiveness, yes, I but I will never forget what I have learned about America. Ever. That is why I slide towards perception over facts in such issues. And it's something I cherish about myself - I am human enough to be human.
Never known fear of America? Good for you. And lucky for you, too. Be grateful. And please try to understand the next time you see images you find disturbing from a certain segment of society on the media - to these folks different things are moving and motivating them, and perception is what it's all about. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-3-14, 10:31pm
Yossarian, to Rob and the others against this decision, that doesn't matter. The facts don't matter.
Here's a thought, though: you resist arrest, try to go for a cop's gun, whatever, all bets are off. But for Rob and the "po-lice are keeping the brothers down" crowd, the thug "dindu nuffin." Whitey is the problem, not the brothers. A black guy could murder a cop, but the "dindu nuffin" crowd would still be wailing that the thug dindu nuffin. He was oppressed and had to do something to his opressors, or so the thinking goes. Plenty of black folks have been on Twitter calling for the murder, rape, and pillage of Whitey since Ferguson.You are right in a way Tradd, yes, I agree with you. If you will read my above post, I go into how and why perceptions matter more than facts from a social class perspective that I'm hoping is easy to understand. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-3-14, 10:37pm
So what should the police have done, if they thought he was doing something illegal (for the second time) and he wasn't going to go with them peacefully? How do you force him to go? It's really unfortunate that the man died......he was severely overweight and just the struggle probably killed him. But what are you supposed to do, in order to get someone like this guy to follow your orders? I fear even without the "chokehold" he may have had an infarct. But seriously.......how can you deal with someone that big who doesn't want to go along with the police?If murder is the only way to gain compliance that these officers can come up with.....hmmmmm.....how exactly are we any better than states such as Guerrero and Michoacan in Mexico where it is essentially lawless and the cartels reign supreme? Granted, New York City is not the same situation as these two states in Mexico and I get that, but in this one instance, how far off are we from being similar to lawless areas of Mexico? And without the good that Mexico has to offer such as family values, slower pace of life, government control of what prescription drugs can cost, a program of socialized medicine for those in the formal workplace (doesn't cover the people selling merchandise in the streets, no).....when I see America acting similar to countries it looks down on, I get very angry and I know what is good about most other countries and I expect the good of said other country that America looks down on if we are going to be similar in behavior. Rob
http://lordoftheflies.org/img/firep800.jpg
iris lilies
12-3-14, 10:45pm
How do I put this in a way that is non-combative and in line with my volunteering as a mod here? Hmmmmm.....Here goes. Something I don't think the "get the facts" crowd gets - and let me preface this with my saying I'm not against getting the facts - the problem with this crowd that I can see, the BIG GLARING PROBLEM, the elephant in the room that this crowd refuses/chooses not to see - is this : To those who have been downtrodden for whatever reason - facts don't matter. Perceptions do. Get this? That's a fact for the downtrodden. That facts lose merit and perceptions mean more. This is why the downtrodden can be stirred up to acts that make such good drama for the network news.
Whether or not the get the facts crowd even has the ability to deal with this simple truth, lack of facing it as it is is not going to make it go away. I myself can totally understand how perception matters more than facts (and I have a degree in Marketing from NAU with a 3.6 GPA and a minor in German, so hopefully I have some functioning brain cells) - when you have no belief or faith in the system you don't believe in facts as you view them as potential weapons to be used against you. True story. Perception matters more than facts to those at the bottom of the ladder. If there's one thing some posters learn here from my participation, please let it be this. Perception is what moves those at the bottom of the ladder. Whether that's good or bad or logical - all moot points. It just is this way and it's been this way as far back as I can remember. If you can't deal with that reality, be glad you are not living it is all I can say.
Now where do I find myself on this spectrum you ask? I'd like to think of myself as 50/50 facts/perception - this to me is a humane adult. Some facts and some emotion/perception to temper the facts. But when it comes to people on the lower end of the scale and how they are treated by "authority" or the global marketplace or society in general - more perception for me as I have known terror of America and once you have you never forget it. Perhaps you can work on forgiveness, yes, I but I will never forget what I have learned about America. Ever. That is why I slide towards perception over facts in such issues. And it's something I cherish about myself - I am human enough to be human.
Never known fear of America? Good for you. And lucky for you, too. Be grateful. And please try to understand the next time you see images you find disturbing from a certain segment of society on the media - to these folks different things are moving and motivating them, and perception is what it's all about. Rob
Perception DOES matter. That's as important as facts in influencing public opinion and that's what the public relations folks know to be true. While unfortunate or not, it is reality. I can think of many instances in my city, but the instance that pops into my head is when we installed in our neighborhood higher wattage lights and then conducted a study of perception. Perception won out as improved even though crime stats did not improve.
Today we in St. Louis are seeing that outsiders perceive this as a dangerous place to visit, and The Danger doesn't come from police presence, the danger comes from rioters and marchers. Personally, I'm fine with going around my normal routine but I wouldn't go into Ferguson because I do not normally go there, why would I? My friends who run Bed & Breakfast Inns have lost half of their business during recent weeks. Local mom and pop shops have lost 50% - 60% of business. Downtown restaurants are hurting and established places are talking about closing. I'm going to have to go into one of the local gift shops and blow $100 on crap that I don't want in order to prop it up.
I can assure you Rob, that those who are staying away are not doing so because they are fearful of cops.
And then, today the cops and the mayor in St. Louis are saying that the death-by-hammer of a white man, beaten by minority youth, was not racially motivated. :0! My neighbors are speculating otherwise and they think that cops & mayor are just lying in order to keep the peace. That might be prudent, but if it's not truthful then who has won out? The unlawful thugs who run ram-pet over this city have won out. Truth has not won out, only lying liars and bullying thugs have won.
gimmethesimplelife
12-3-14, 11:04pm
Perception DOES matter. That's as important as facts in influencing public opinion and that's what the public relations folks know to be true. While unfortunate or not, it is reality. I can think of many instances in my city, but the instance that pops into my head is when we installed in our neighborhood higher wattage lights and then conducted a study of perception. Perception won out as improved even though crime stats did not improve.
Today we in St. Louis are seeing that outsiders perceive this as a dangerous place to visit, and The Danger doesn't come from police presence, the danger comes from rioters and marchers. Personally, I'm fine with going around my normal routine but I wouldn't go into Ferguson because I do not normally go there, why would I? My friends who run Bed & Breakfast Inns have lost half of their business during recent weeks. Local mom and pop shops have lost 50% - 60% of business. Downtown restaurants are hurting and established places are talking about closing. I'm going to have to go into one of the local gift shops and blow $100 on crap that I don't want in order to prop it up.
I can assure you Rob, that those who are staying away are not doing so because they are fearful of cops.
And then, today the cops and the mayor in St. Louis are saying that the death-by-hammer of a white man, beaten by minority youth, was not racially motivated. :0! My neighbors are speculating otherwise and they think that cops & mayor are just lying in order to keep the peace. That might be prudent, but if it's not truthful then who has won out? The unlawful thugs who run ram-pet over this city have won out. Truth has not won out, only lying liars and bullying thugs have won.I see your post here as balanced, fair, and realistic, IL and believe it or not, this time on this topic we are basically on the same page. And I do agree it's not the cops (at this time anyway) that is keeping folks away from St. Louis (the cops since the verdict was read have shown a remarkable degree of common sense and restraint, as anti-cop as I am I do believe in giving credit when it is due and they get this from me - since the verdict was read) - it's the unrest and actions from the non-peaceful protestors. Do you remember when I stated in the other long, long, long thread that tourism was going to suffer due to the issues in St. Louis? I personally expected general foreign travel to the US to decline overall due to perceptions of the US abroad - I don't know if this has happened but from what you are seeing on a first hand basis, this is happening in St Louis itself. I am not at all surprised - I understand how perception trumps facts. Especially in issues of personal safety and/or economics.
I don't know if what I am about to post is true, IL, as I don't read the future. That said, my gut instinct? You and those you know are residents of a city that will be the forefront of a new era in civil rights the history books will be discussing in classrooms in the future. Funky and interesting thought. Does that make me want to get on a Southwest Airlines flight to go see it? Ummmm.....no. I wouldn't mind peacefully protesting there BUT OTOH things can quickly become volatile there as I see it - perception once again driving this with facts not having any real bearing. Perception can be such a powerful, even long term violent thing and once it's formed, it can be a real bitch to change.....I fear the officials in St Louis may be grappling with that one for some time.
At any rate, IL, see, we ARE capable of meeting one another halfway and even agreeing sometimes. Gives me some hope, it really does, as we overall see things so differently. Rob
That said, my gut instinct? You and those you know are residents of a city that will be the forefront of a new era in civil rights the history books will be discussing in classrooms in the future. . Rob
https://messaggisofisticati.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/idiocracy-poster-2.jpg
Or perhaps...
http://illwatchanything.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/zardoz_profilelarge.jpg
Or maybe you'll get lucky...
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CdocFnegjE0/TPAaXW2xdHI/AAAAAAAAB5w/yOp9OcFst24/s400/timemachine60_eloi2.jpg
Yossarian
12-3-14, 11:11pm
Perception matters more than facts to those at the bottom of the ladder.
Maybe that's why they are at the bottom of the ladder.
gimmethesimplelife
12-3-14, 11:15pm
Maybe that's why they are at the bottom of the ladder.Hmmmm.....I don't see it that way instinctively but I am going to give it a day or two and think this one over and come back and respond, ok? Your post here strikes me as one that deserves some deep thought and I'd like to give it that level of overview. Rob
I watched the video this morning. It made me cry.
I would like to know what transpired at approximately the 33 second mark, there appear to be some things that were left out as the shot stops then starts again.
Those do not look like experienced police officers to me, the 2 in the shorts.
What a terrible situation.
Hmmmm.....I don't see it that way instinctively but I am going to give it a day or two and think this one over and come back and respond, ok? Your post here strikes me as one that deserves some deep thought and I'd like to give it that level of overview. Rob
You were half right, Rob, except that perception is reality for everyone--the rich, the poor and the in-between. That's why 10 people can look at the same video and come away with different conclusions. All of us bring our own filters with us and subconsciously use our experiences and beliefs to color in the "facts." These videos are a big Rorchach test for each one of us.
That's why 10 people can look at the same video and come away with different conclusions.
That troubles me less than the fact that many people people won't know the facts. They hear the BS press headlines about the cop who "killed him with a chokehold" and act on that. I think the video dispels that narrative. Apparently the grand jury agreed. And yet the sensationalist storyline continues establishing yet another dismal chapter in national journalism.
That troubles me less than the fact that many people people won't know the facts. They hear the BS press headlines about the cop who "killed him with a chokehold" and act on that. I think the video dispels that narrative. Apparently the grand jury agreed. And yet the sensationalist storyline continues establishing yet another dismal chapter in national journalism.
That's why I wish there were a video that shows what happens between 30 second mark and 35 mark.
I watched video posted by bae and did not hear, you are under arrest nor did I see big black guy physically charge the 2 peewee cops
Why did those little cops in shorts try to climb that guy like a mountain?
Why didn't they wait for back up?
To my viewing, the video doesn't dispel the narrative of 'killed him with a chokehold'
See--Yossarian believes the video dispels the narrative of unjustiable homicide and mtnlaurel thinks it supports it. Yossarian, you identify with the police doing their job and subduing a resistant "perp" within the limits of the law (although apparently there is a law prohibiting chokeholds in NY) and mtnlaurel, you identify with the man who seems to be vastly outnumbered and physically assaulted for no justifiable reason, with the result being the man's death. Plus, some of the information seems to be missing.
Same video, different conclusions. Which facts can we agree on?
I believe that the use of force was excessive for the situation, and I believe that the killing of the man, while tragic and avoidable, was in no way intentional on the part of the officer. I was not in the grand jury and did not see the testimony and I didn't receive the instructions from the prosecutor, so I can't weigh on on the verdict.
To Yossarian's point, relying on the media tell us what the "facts" are is naive.
Just for the record, I am not anti-cop.
Just for the record, I am not anti-cop.
I didn't think you were. Neither am I. Sometimes situations are mishandled, and I think this was one of them.
I think the video that bae provided had 3-4 breaks in it. I mean it was edited. It sure would have been good to see what happened from the very beginning of the encounter.
The thing that bothered me was that no one was doing CPR on the guy, after they sort of knew he wasn't breathing.
One thing I question is that these incidents (Ferguson, and this one), the black men were doing something they were asked not to do and then ramping up on their anger (supposedly with Ferguson and you could see this on the video of the Garner case). It's not like they were totally innocent, minding their own business, being reasonable.
And DH and I were talking about this this morning. When people seem to be getting more aggressive, and everyone has easy access to guns........what a terrible position this puts policemen in. And then there are complaints that the police are becoming too militarized. What are they supposed to do......just stand there and get shot themselves? Sometimes there's only a second to know if you are dead, or the "perp" is dead. It's called self-preservation.
I hope being a policeman doesn't become too difficult a job, and we end up with none.
I'm going to ask another question here.......about the 6th grader who was shot for waving a (toy) gun around and pointing it at people. I just heard that the cop who shot him had negative internal reviews that he was emotionally immature and not good police material......but........how did this kid get this toy gun? Did his parents know he was out there waving this gun around? There is plenty of fault on both sides.
Getting back to the Garner case.........I wonder why they didn't taze him?
Okay.....so Garner had been brought in before on the same problem. He was getting pretty riled up. The police wanted to take him in. He was a huge man. What would you have done if you had been one of those policemen? I also think we're expecting the police to not have any human emotions. Yes, we always hope they do the right thing, but we can't make them non-human. I imagine it can get pretty frustrating day-in, day-out dealing with people not behaving well.
http://lordoftheflies.org/img/firep800.jpg
None of you commented on this. I believe it is a scene from the movie version of "Lord Of The Flies". Well, isn't it? I've never seen it, but the book was practically a text in jr high. I didn't read it then, either, but I might round up a copy, and see what it's all about.
bae....could you please use words to express your opinions. Sometimes big pictures can be an insult that one can get away with.
I just would like you to put these pics into words that represent your opinion.
catherine
12-4-14, 10:56am
None of you commented on this. I believe it is a scene from the movie version of "Lord Of The Flies". Well, isn't it? I've never seen it, but the book was practically a text in jr high. I didn't read it then, either, but I might round up a copy, and see what it's all about.
I was wondering what that picture was--I have read Lord of the Flies and Golding's thesis is that without society, and its controls in place, human beings will be unable to self-police, and mutiny, lawlessness and savagery will ensue. He said that human beings, left to their own devices are brutish, and need the controls of civilization.
It's also a story about "we" vs. "them" and it tells a sad story about morality in a vacuum.
This is an example of how the police treat white suspects:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_BOW_AND_ARROW_KILLING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
The garner case troubles me a lot. How can you listen to a human being say repeatedly "I can't breathe" and just go on choking him?
I'm not sure what your point is about your link. We don't know what his sentence was. Please explain.
People usually don't go from yelling "I can't breath" repeatedly to dead. I'm sure they would have taken it more seriously if they thought it would lead to a death. He wouldn't have been able to even say he couldn't breath if he was being strangled. I'm just commenting on that aspect. I don't know for sure if he was dead immediately.......but all those cops know CPR, so I wonder why they didn't start it?
It was very difficult to watch. They should have used other means......like a tazer if he continued to refused to go with them. But....as I asked above, the examples we've seen lately were of men who were disobeying some order and fighting it. If blacks are being wrongfully treated, then we need to see examples of totally innocent people being harassed. Plus......is all the evidence available for the public that was available to the the Ferguson grand jury? Seems like all of us are making assumptions that we just know are true or not.
Jane.......how would you have handled the Garner case?
I was wondering what that picture was--I have read Lord of the Flies and Golding's thesis is that without society, and its controls in place, human beings will be unable to self-police, and mutiny, lawlessness and savagery will ensue. He said that human beings, left to their own devices are brutish, and need the controls of civilization.
It's also a story about "we" vs. "them" and it tells a sad story about morality in a vacuum.
Yes, that's what it's about........but I don't know which position bae is trying to support? I think he's referring to Rob's position.........but sometimes he jumps around and I'm not sure what he believes.
catherine
12-4-14, 11:54am
I'm not sure what your point is about your link. We don't know what his sentence was. Please explain.
People usually don't go from yelling "I can't breath" repeatedly to dead.
Jane.......how would you have handled the Garner case?
I'm not going to speak for Jane, but what I got out of her link was that a very vicious sociopath who had just shot his grandmother in a savage way was treated more humanely than a man who was standing on the street simply peddling illegal cigarettes.
...
Jane.......how would you have handled the Garner case?
I would have tried talking to him civilly first. I certainly wouldn't have employed a proscribed maneuver known to have killed more than a few people of color. But I probably would have considered other police matters more pressing than some poor guy trying to make a few dollars selling loosies, had I had a choice.
Some police officers are heroes, most are competent and well-intentioned, a few are violent, sociopathic racist thugs. We need to root out the latter group. But if we're moving toward a police state, perhaps that would be counterproductive.
But in terms of the "crime".......where does it end in terms of just letting things go?
Let's wait and see what the facts are.........how many times this guy was arrested and how many times complaints have been filed against this one officer (of which there were 4 or 5).
The fact is that the coroner's office ruled his death a homicide. And he told his murderer several times that he couldn't breathe. We don't have capital punishment for petty crimes. Yet.
But in terms of the "crime".......where does it end in terms of just letting things go?).
Every single person commits crimes every day. Just yesterday I was driving 62 in a 55 zone but the Portland police are apparently soft on crime because my act of lawlessness went unpunished. Is selling loosies so much worse than speeding that garner deserved what happened to him?
ApatheticNoMore
12-4-14, 1:20pm
Every single person commits crimes every day. Just yesterday I was driving 62 in a 55 zone but the Portland police are apparently soft on crime because my act of lawlessness went unpunished. Is selling loosies so much worse than speeding that garner deserved what happened to him?
I'm a criminal too. I have an illegal tint on my car windows. Unfortunately I have to get it removed as the law won. Basically tint shops make their money on illegal tints mostly - most of it is illegal in this state, different states allow different things.
The bit about perception is interesting. Don't we all look for "news" that corroborates what we believe or want to be true? In my mind, empathy is what seems to be declining in all of us. That is probably too "feely" for some here but to imagine being in someone else's shoes often helps me appreciate their situation and motives better. I can look at police killings of young black men in my own city over the last few years. They are numerous and the police are always acquitted. Something has changed in the way policing is done in general. I too am more afraid of them now than I would have been in my youth. And I am a white female.
The bit about perception is interesting. Don't we all look for "news" that corroborates what we believe or want to be true?
Yes. It's called confirmation bias and we all do it.
In my mind, empathy is what seems to be declining in all of us.
I agree--so when Tradd posted that link, and Lainey said it portrayed "too much empathy"--I don't get that. We have a huge shortage of putting ourselves in each others shoes and really trying to slow down, listen and understand rather than succumbing to our own knee-jerk reactions based on faulty perceptions.
Police in Seattle (and Portland) have a history of egregious behavior--from beating an Hispanic man while shouting racial slurs (after he had been restrained IIRC), to pepper spraying a driver while she was trying to avoid a riot situation, to punching a handcuffed woman already in a cell. That's just a sample. Our police look like Mayberry's finest by comparison. They are supposed to screen applicants for psychological weaknesses--and presumably for sociopathy--but apparently they're not asking the right questions.
I wonder what all Garner was arrested for the other 31 times, since he' was 16?
We don't have capital punishment for career criminals, either--unless you've been convicted of murder and sentenced accordingly. I'm pretty sure if his crimes had been noteworthy, he would have been in prison. There's no justification for this, but you can keep looking for some.
I have tinted windows too; I bought the car that way. Only in the rear, but still--I could be carrying anything back there...:0!
Note that New York has had the notorious Stop and Frisk law on the books until recently (I think), so minority youth in the target neighborhoods could have been convicted of numerous petty crimes from jaywalking to possession--a daily shakedown you don't have to worry about in most neighborhoods.
What happens to officers who choke white people:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/04/28/knoxville-cop-fired-immediately-after-photos-show-brutal-choking-of-student/
Funny about how everyone howls about "accountability" until it's their side under scrutiny, this thread has me thinking.
ApatheticNoMore
12-4-14, 3:25pm
The bit about perception is interesting. Don't we all look for "news" that corroborates what we believe or want to be true?
it's why I say if you want to look for definite policies of racial discrimination in the now or recent past I think they are there to be found (and not all controversial stuff). But I don't think they are mainstream knowledge. Though *some* of which colors my understanding might still be controversial to some, CIA drug trafficking etc..
To say whole groups of society prefer perception over facts and other whole groups prefer facts over perception and it's all strictly class based just strikes me as absurd (though it is true the education level will generally be higher in economically better off people - so the tools they have to make sense of the world might be better - but honestly I'm not that convinced they use them all that widely!).
Pretty soon I fully expect it to be "women can't think and are irrational". Well there are centuries of misogyny to back that so it must be true ....
I think most people are intelligent enough to make sense enough of the world they navigate in their own immediate lives (not that they are Einstein) and everything else goes to education in various modes of thought (and true there are some modes not everyone is going to be any good at. But that's not a class thing), oh and on the opposite side of education there is anti-education (advertising, propaganda, brainwashing etc.).
the first link is a longer version of the video. while there still appears to be an edit between 'please leave me alone' and the actual physical confrontation, it doesn't seem like there was violence on Garner's part. hard to be sure of that, though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPAEYQIjMIo
- eta, sorry for the voice over and editorial comments.
this is a still photo. (center shot) i believe that Eric Garner actually wet his pants. Not bringing this up to shame the man, but if so, he was either in absolute terror, or already having some sort of a bodily crisis at the time of the initial physical contact.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/staten-island-da-man-death-nypd-chokehold-article-1.1871946
what to do? Hmm... how about, 'let the man go.' Absolute compliance with the law might be ideal in a black and white world - no pun intended - but common sense interaction between normal people instead of masters and the masses would have indicated backing the **** up, not charging in for the kill. De-escalate the situation, remove physical contact, and if necessary, act at a later time. frankly, "hey man, you just pissed yourself" might have taken the steam out of him. He lived in the neighborhood and was known to the cops. It's not like he was on the run, a violent dangerous menace to society that they couldn't have arrested at a later date with better evidence when he wasn't obviously in physical distress.
Also eta; I don't think the cops acted against the law, or should I say I guess they did but I don't think the choke hold actually killed Garner, but their judgment was terrible and the protocol which includes "winning" at nearly any cost is unnecessarily mindless, chest thumping horsesht. You can hear a siren in the background at the moment the physical conflict started -to me it appeared these two wanted to literally Handle the situation before their backup arrived, and it got a man killed.
Teacher Terry
12-4-14, 4:20pm
Blacks fill our prisons & are arrested & convicted at proportionally higher rates then white people. The man who shot his Mom in the head with arrows was obviously mentally ill but since he was white he was treated much better. In regard to Ferguson I read the information the grand jury was given & there was a point that Brown was running away yet the cop pursued him. Back up was on it's way & he didn't need to do that. He had already shot Brown at that point but he was still alive. Had he not followed & kept shooting Brown would still be alive.
Blacks fill our prisons & are arrested & convicted at proportionally higher rates then white people. So all things are equal? No disparities in crime rates to explain some of that or is race the only factor?
The man who shot his Mom in the head with arrows was obviously mentally ill but since he was white he was treated much better. Again, there's no other possible reason other than race? No difference in imminent threat at the time of the arrest?
In regard to Ferguson I read the information the grand jury was given & there was a point that Brown was running away yet the cop pursued him. Back up was on it's way & he didn't need to do that. He had already shot Brown at that point but he was still alive. Had he not followed & kept shooting Brown would still be alive. Did you read all of the testimony? I believe there were many references to Brown charging the police officer and being shot in the process. You're almost certainly right that if the police officer had not kept shooting Brown would still be alive, although I wonder if we could say the same about the police officer.
I think many people don't understand the dynamics involved in the use of lethal force. It is always authorized in response to the imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury and is never authorized otherwise. It seems apparent to me that this came into play in Ferguson while perhaps not in the case of the matricide event. There's so much more to every potentially violent incident than race.
The fact is that the coroner's office ruled his death a homicide.
"Homicide" covers a lot of ground. For instance, in my state:
RCW 9A.32.010 -Homicide defined.
Homicide is the killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or omission of another, death occurring at any time, and is either (1) murder, (2) homicide by abuse, (3) manslaughter, (4) excusable homicide, or (5) justifiable homicide.
You have to look at the facts to determine what *sort* of homicide it was, in particular in this case, if it was (4) excusable homicide or (5) justifiable homicide:
RCW 9A.16.030 - Homicide — When excusable.
Homicide is excusable when committed by accident or misfortune in doing any lawful act by lawful means, without criminal negligence, or without any unlawful intent.
RCW 9A.16.040 - Justifiable homicide or use of deadly force by public officer, peace officer, person aiding.
(1) Homicide or the use of deadly force is justifiable in the following cases:
(a) When a public officer is acting in obedience to the judgment of a competent court; or
(b) When necessarily used by a peace officer to overcome actual resistance to the execution of the legal process, mandate, or order of a court or officer, or in the discharge of a legal duty.
(c) When necessarily used by a peace officer or person acting under the officer's command and in the officer's aid:
(i) To arrest or apprehend a person who the officer reasonably believes has committed, has attempted to commit, is committing, or is attempting to commit a felony;
(ii) To prevent the escape of a person from a federal or state correctional facility or in retaking a person who escapes from such a facility; or
(iii) To prevent the escape of a person from a county or city jail or holding facility if the person has been arrested for, charged with, or convicted of a felony; or
(iv) To lawfully suppress a riot if the actor or another participant is armed with a deadly weapon.
(2) In considering whether to use deadly force under subsection (1)(c) of this section, to arrest or apprehend any person for the commission of any crime, the peace officer must have probable cause to believe that the suspect, if not apprehended, poses a threat of serious physical harm to the officer or a threat of serious physical harm to others. Among the circumstances which may be considered by peace officers as a "threat of serious physical harm" are the following:
(a) The suspect threatens a peace officer with a weapon or displays a weapon in a manner that could reasonably be construed as threatening; or
(b) There is probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed any crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm.
Under these circumstances deadly force may also be used if necessary to prevent escape from the officer, where, if feasible, some warning is given.
(3) A public officer or peace officer shall not be held criminally liable for using deadly force without malice and with a good faith belief that such act is justifiable pursuant to this section.
(4) This section shall not be construed as:
(a) Affecting the permissible use of force by a person acting under the authority of RCW 9A.16.020 or 9A.16.050; or
(b) Preventing a law enforcement agency from adopting standards pertaining to its use of deadly force that are more restrictive than this section.
And he told his murderer several times that he couldn't breathe.
You have leapt to the conclusion it was murder, instead of any of the other sorts of homicide. I will note in passing that if he can speak that he can't breath, he is unlikely to be being subjected to an airway choke hold, and if conscious enough to speak, he is also not being subjected to a blood choke.
As to the officers flesh-piling him on the ground... A short while ago I responded to an agency-assist call to help subdue a 140 pound agitated man. It took 2 large sheriff's deputies, one large undersheriff, one huge paramedic who was a Canadian national wrestling champion, myself, and one mid-sized firefighter to subdue and control the individual. And we were about as kind and caring as we could be. But if he'd been out of shape, or subject to heart conditions, or asthma, I could see how he might of perished from the struggle. As it was, we had to reboot him in the ambulance as he stopped breathing for a bit.
Physical struggles aren't as easy, or as safe, as you see in the movies. You can die from a single punch, or from hitting your head on the pavement as you land, or half a dozen other things. This is why I avoid force whenever possible.
We don't have capital punishment for petty crimes. Yet.
Seems to me that the force was being used as a result of his resisting a lawful arrest. It wasn't in response to the petty crime itself, but the result of the interaction with the police that followed their contact with him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8
i don't know what your situation with the agitated man was, but it appeared that the cops initiated physical force toward garner. garner was upset, but the pushy-pushy didn't appear to be started by him. This could have been de-escalated rather than made into a physical situation, probably just by waiting for back up. granted, garner's death seems to have been more a matter of bad luck than brutality, but keeping the conflict non-physical probably would have saved his life - or at least made it clear that the violence wasn't a contributing factor.
This could have been de-escalated rather than made into a physical situation, probably just by waiting for back up.
Just by my quick count of police officers in the video, I'd say that backup was already there.
i don't know what your situation with the agitated man was, but it appeared that the cops initiated physical force toward garner.
They grabbed his hand, from the video I initially posted (which seems to have a jump-cut right before that....), which I am presuming was to effect an arrest. He then resisted. You don't get to resist. If you do, the police will escalate through their force continuum until you stop resisting... ( What actually happened leading up to this moment? What information was presented to the grand jury that led them to their decision? )
And I'm not sure what "backup" you wanted them to wait for, they had a whole pile of guys there it seems from the video. Which I presume was part of the issue, once they tackled him and sat on him, while he was experiencing an asthma attack/heart-attack/... it wasn't going to end well.
In the case I was just involved in, the single responding officer *did* wait for backup, the team I mentioned above. Then we did essentially the same thing as that video, except we used pharmacological restraints once we had him held down, secured him to a gurney, put him in an ambulance, took him to the landing strip, and medevaced him to the mainland where they had sufficient facilities to deal with him until trial.
That's a good one bae! (The Chris Rock video).
That's what I've been feeling about how some of these situations are worsened so much by the attitudes of the people they may pull over or question.
Maybe it's just part of what seems like the next generation's behavior........to have very little respect for anyone. I don't know.
I think anyone at all, of any race, would get more than they bargained for if they responded to the police in a really hostile way.
I was also reading about how "homicide" isn't the same as "murder".
As to some here thinking people shouldn't be charged for various small "infrigements of the law".........where is the cut-off?
Our society is very confusing to me. Sometimes we make bigger deals out of things than we should........and then there are times when things are covered-up so people don't get angry.
When I've listened to interviews with black people recently about their feelings, etc., I would love to have caucasians be allowed to bring up some of their own questions......like "why are most of the homicides and robberies and violent break-ins in our city 90% by blacks, or why can't so many blacks speak so we can understand them (they've lived here as long as we have), or why when I pass a black man on the street, he looks at me like he'd like to slit my throat."....... very honest questions like that. I would love to see a mixed group of races have talks like that.
But you know.......the violent ones wouldn't come to something like that, because I think they really don't want to be part of "our" culture. And don't go saying I'm talking about ALL of a race, 'cause I'm not.
Social media.......wow.......the problems it can cause in a bad way, or bring a problem to light in a good way.
The thing that bothers me about Garner, is that I'm pretty sure he arrested on the sidewalk, and nobody did CPR....even when the EMTs got there. Cops know CPR. I think that would have shown that they had at least a little respect for the guy.
i'll look again. if you take a look at the video i put up, it's a little longer but granted, still edited. what i saw was the verbal conflict, i heard the beep of a siren, garner started to move, the two officers moved in, and then the others joined in as they arrived. just thinking that the visual four-six on one aspect would probably have made the physical moves unnecessary, if they'd all been present before it got physical. it did appear that the two cops were waiting, just sort of corralling garner, and then when the others arrived all hell broke loose, but i'm not entirely sure what the trigger was. i also don't know if anyone ever told him he was under arrest. i would think until those words are said, it's legal to walk away. ?
what i guess i'm really thinking is that it's the stark protocol that's really the problem. it's pretty clear that no one was really acting in self defense, cops pushed him to keep him where they wanted him, he pushed back because he was scared and uncomfortable with the touching. maybe he was trying to run away. I'm not sure if I believe that resisting arrest should be such a big deal, if it doesn't include actually assaulting anyone. I know that sounds strange, but pushing and running is such a natural response to being trapped, I'm not sure choke holds or other violence are appropriate responses. i say yes, you say no, and just because I have the law on my side, I get to attack you? not so good.
In the case I was just involved in, the single responding officer *did* wait for backup, the team I mentioned above. Then we did essentially the same thing as that video, except we used pharmacological restraints once we had him held down, secured him to a gurney, put him in an ambulance, took him to the landing strip, and medevaced him to the mainland where they had sufficient facilities to deal with him until trial. Although this is not the American Way, IMO there are shades of gray that need to be considered. Does the suspect pose a threat of violence to anyone, including himself? Is this a potentially lethal crime? I'm with you on the idea that Garner's death was an excusable homicide, but I also think it was an avoidable one. As I say, i have no idea of the specifics of your case, but if you hadn't been able to jolt the guy back to life, would you have reconsidered the protocol?
The thing that bothers me about Garner, is that I'm pretty sure he arrested on the sidewalk, and nobody did CPR....even when the EMTs got there. Cops know CPR. I think that would have shown that they had at least a little respect for the guy.
In this longer video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8
At 6:43 a bystanders asks "why nobody doing CPR?" Officer responds "he's still breathing".
I saw previous to this on the video the EMT checking vitals several times, as well as several officers, none of them indicated any problems verbally, or by their body language. I didn't hear any agonal breathing on the video from the man, who was on his side in a recovery position.
I don't think the choke hold actually killed Garner
Exactly, but perceptions are of course more important.
... but I also think it was an avoidable one.
Perhaps if we didn't have a whole bunch of lame laws in the first place that lead to people having police interactions over violations of the lame laws we could avoid this.
If however we have lame laws, and expect the police to enforce them, then we may expect bad results when people resist being arrested.
Explain to me again why we allow our government the power to make it illegal to sell a single cigarette? Next thing they'll be telling us what size soda we can purchase....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christopher-mathias/i-love-loosies-in-defense_b_845698.html
When I've listened to interviews with black people recently about their feelings, etc., I would love to have caucasians be allowed to bring up some of their own questions......like "why are most of the homicides and robberies and violent break-ins in our city 90% by blacks, or why can't so many blacks speak so we can understand them (they've lived here as long as we have), or why when I pass a black man on the street, he looks at me like he'd like to slit my throat."....... very honest questions like that. I would love to see a mixed group of races have talks like that.
But you know.......the violent ones wouldn't come to something like that, because I think they really don't want to be part of "our" culture.
may i state for the record that i am caucasian and i don't have any of those questions or concerns, please?
As to some here thinking people shouldn't be charged for various small "infrigements of the law".........where is the cut-off?
.
The cutoff seems to be about a billion dollars. Crimes bigger than that don't get prosecuted. Smaller than that and you'd better watch out.
Perhaps if we didn't have a whole bunch of lame laws in the first place that lead to people having police interactions over violations of the lame laws we could avoid this.
If however we have lame laws, and expect the police to enforce them, then we may expect bad results when people resist being arrested.
Explain to me again why we allow our government the power to make it illegal to sell a single cigarette? Next thing they'll be telling us what size soda we can purchase....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christopher-mathias/i-love-loosies-in-defense_b_845698.html >8)
ok, ok. I'm not in support of nanny laws either. Or at least, like everyone else, I pick and choose the ones I like, and I don't like most of them. My Dad's a libertarian, and I think his primary failing is the assumption that, left to their own devices, everyone will act more or less reasonably, fairly and with an eye toward the greater good. If I believed that, I'd be a libertarian in a heartbeat.
may i state for the record that i am caucasian and i don't have any of those questions or concerns, please?
Everyone has different experiences kib, and lives in different areas. I run into the language problem constantly.........in calling most of the companies/insurances I deal with, interacting with staff at various places, etc..
And the city near here has big-time problems with black crime. I'm happy for you if these aren't problems for you......but they are for me, but that doesn't mean I'm a racist. I think I have pretty basic, reasonable expectations for behavior and communication.
.
Maybe it's just part of what seems like the next generation's behavior........to have very little respect for anyone. I don't know.
It might not be a generational thing to not have respect for the cops. If one lives in a stop and frisk neighborhood it's probably more of a locational attitude. If garner had been stopped and frisked a bunch of times prior to his death it's completely reasonable to see why he had such a negative reaction. Was it the right response, obviously not. Losing one's temper is rarely the best response to any situation, but it also shouldn't carry the death penalty.
This is just my perception, Cathy, but I imagine those blacks you speak of would tell you that they feel they have no value and because of that they no longer have any need to try and fit into "our" culture because it is hopeless.
Exactly, but perceptions are of course more important.It appears that the perceptions of the people actually asked to make the decision agree, though.
... an old friend of mine once said, "when you don't like someone, their breath stinks." It's really, really hard to give someone a completely objective review of anything once they've wronged you, once you have a preconceived notion of their character based on experience. It's also really difficult not to be annoyed when standing on the outside looking logically at a game you have no skin in, and wondering why on earth people are being so illogical.
If one lives in a stop and frisk neighborhood it's probably more of a locational attitude. If garner had been stopped and frisked a bunch of times prior to his death it's completely reasonable to see why he had such a negative reaction.
Indeed.
I live right on the US/Canada border, on a major smuggling route. I have been stopped while on my boat heading from my dock to the next island over where our county seat is by as many as 3 different agencies on the *same* trip over a 12 mile route. Inspecting my boat for "safety", doing immigration checks, looking for drug smuggling, and general Homeland Security nonsense. I have come to expect being stopped often. It irks me - but I don't ever give them any guff back. I certainly don't resist when they ask me to move and stand in a particular place and manner while they are carrying out their search. Once you "resist" you have stepped into a whole different ballgame, and I don't care how Superman you think you are, you will lose.
What I *do* do is talk to my Congressman and Senators and state officials about the situation, as do many other people in my community, as we all get swept up in this nonsense constantly. For about a year, they were herding us into a barbed-wire-enclosed area at the landing at the mainland and questioning us/searching us, they stopped that after quite a bit of ruckus.
Everyone has different experiences kib, and lives in different areas. I run into the language problem constantly.........in calling most of the companies/insurances I deal with, interacting with staff at various places, etc..
And the city near here has big-time problems with black crime. I'm happy for you if these aren't problems for you......but they are for me, but that doesn't mean I'm a racist. I think I have pretty basic, reasonable expectations for behavior and communication.ok, just saying, don't lump all us whities in the same rowboat, please. I'm sorry this has been your experience.
Turns out the Justice Department had already been reviewing the Cleveland PD for over a year and a half and recently issued a report concluding "that Cleveland police use guns, Tasers, "impact weapons," pepper spray and their fists in excess, unnecessarily or in retaliation. Officer also use excessive force on those "who are mentally ill or in crisis," the Justice Department said. http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/04/us/cleveland-justice-department-police-excessive-force/
ApatheticNoMore
12-4-14, 6:00pm
The U.N. is has been reviewing and condemning U.S. policing in general lately.
It appears that the perceptions of the people actually asked to make the decision agree, though.
In the court proceedings they ask them look at the facts to make decisions which is why we have these constant disconnects, whether it is Zimmerman, Ferguson or this one.
It really is a travesty when the story is so distorted. This guy wasn't choked to death by the police, but that's what you would be lead to believe by the headlines. And the net result is that at some marginal level people who should be doing more to take charge of their own lives, the people at the bottom of Rob's ladder, may end up doing less based on an erroneous assumption there is no point in trying due to an acceptance of false perceptions as the truth.
What I *do* do is talk to my Congressman and Senators and state officials about the situation, as do many other people in my community, as we all get swept up in this nonsense constantly. For about a year, they were herding us into a barbed-wire-enclosed area at the landing at the mainland and questioning us/searching us, they stopped that after quite a bit of ruckus. Glad to hear your entirely legal protest came to something. I'm a bit dubious it would have worked for Garner, though.
In the court proceedings they ask them look at the facts to make decisions which is why we have these constant disconnects, whether it is Zimmerman, Ferguson or this one.
It really is a travesty when the story is so distorted. This guy wasn't choked to death by the police, but that's what you would be lead to believe by the headlines. And the net result is that at some marginal level people who should be doing more to take charge of their own lives, the people at the bottom or Rob's ladder, may end up doing less based on an erroneous assumption there is no point in trying due to an acceptance of false perceptions as the truth.
Hmm. I can see that, that people may lose hope where they should not, based on a perception that's coming from the heart rather than the head. But is hope actually realistic on Rob's first rung?
ApatheticNoMore
12-4-14, 6:37pm
may end up doing less based on an erroneous assumption there is no point in trying due to an acceptance of false perceptions as the truth.
maybe if we assume their only perceptions are the news and they don't have plenty of other perceptions in daily life
But is hope actually realistic on Rob's first rung?
I would say yes, but based actual outcomes not likely. From my POV that's far more a product of supply than demand.
"Homicide" covers a lot of ground. For instance, in my state:
...
You have to look at the facts to determine what *sort* of homicide it was, in particular in this case, if it was (4) excusable homicide or (5) justifiable homicide:
You have leapt to the conclusion it was murder, instead of any of the other sorts of homicide. I will note in passing that if he can speak that he can't breath, he is unlikely to be being subjected to an airway choke hold, and if conscious enough to speak, he is also not being subjected to a blood choke.
As to the officers flesh-piling him on the ground... A short while ago I responded to an agency-assist call to help subdue a 140 pound agitated man. It took 2 large sheriff's deputies, one large undersheriff, one huge paramedic who was a Canadian national wrestling champion, myself, and one mid-sized firefighter to subdue and control the individual. And we were about as kind and caring as we could be. But if he'd been out of shape, or subject to heart conditions, or asthma, I could see how he might of perished from the struggle. As it was, we had to reboot him in the ambulance as he stopped breathing for a bit.
Physical struggles aren't as easy, or as safe, as you see in the movies. You can die from a single punch, or from hitting your head on the pavement as you land, or half a dozen other things. This is why I avoid force whenever possible. ...
(Bolding mine) Most reasonable, compassionate first responders do. My take on this is that it's probably involuntary manslaughter, and I really hope he did get some kind of meaningful care on the scene.
iris lilies
12-4-14, 10:18pm
So what should the police have done, if they thought he was doing something illegal (for the second time)
Granger has an arrest record of 30+ incidents. Another "Gentle Giant" like our Ferguson martyr.>8)
Selling loosies* on the street is not worthy of death and no one says that it is. But police resources are focused on places where the community wants them. I know, I live in one of those areas where we get police to pay attention to specific issues by community pressure. In NYC the business owners wanted Garner gone. What's hard to understand about that? He had 30 some tries at various issues that got him arrested.
And then, he resisted arrest. That is a wrong move and once you start down that path, outcome is a wild card.
*In fact, I wish I knew a loosie dealer. Occasionally I want to buy a smoke but not the entire pack for reason of temptation more than money. You would think that here in the urban core I could find a loosie dealer.
Yossarian
12-4-14, 10:45pm
And then, he resisted arrest. That is a wrong move and once you start down that path, outcome is a wild card.
As they say, play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I find it frustrating that there are almost certainly true cases of abuse out there that deserve to get exposed, but all the celebrity cases (Martin, Brown and Garner) seem to involve people who simply reaped the results of bad choices.
Interesting thing I heard on the radio tonight - there was a black female police sergeant who oversaw Garner's arrest.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/12/breaking-eric-garner-arrest-death-supervised-by-black-female-police-sergeant/
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/decision-not-indict-eric-garner-death-disgrace-article-1.2032435
But what makes the Garner case so much different than Michael Brown’s is that the Staten Island killing can’t be called a racial incident.
Pantaleo who applied the lethal chokehold on Eric Garner was supervised by an African-American female NYPD sergeant.
Having that black sergeant in charge of that crime scene takes race out of the equation. As awful as Pantaleo’s actions appear on that video, at no time does that black sergeant order Pantaleo to stop choking Garner.
With a population that is 70% white and 10% African-American, when a Staten Island grand jury is presented with a white cop supervised by a black sergeant applying a lethal chokehold, it eliminates the racial component.
As they say, play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I find it frustrating that there are almost certainly true cases of abuse out there that deserve to get exposed, but all the celebrity cases (Martin, Brown and Garner) seem to involve people who simply reaped the results of bad choices.
I don't know that I'd put Martin in that category. Regardless of what the jury decided, walking down the street with the wrong color skin shouldn't warrant being hassled by a wanna be cop.
Damn, I think I've got the idea for a new business venture--loosies! Zurra, is still a stronghold of cigarette smoking. I just need to find my spot on a downtown street, learn the ropes, and be in business for myself! Wish Me Luckk.
You'd probably do better with your loosie biz in a state that's not a stronghold of smoking anymore. IL is probably an odd duck in Zurra, only wanting one cigarette every once in a while. Better to go somewhere where smokers are totally vilified and people are shamed into not doing it but every once in a while really really want one. Like California. At our benefits meeting a couple of years ago one of my coworkers, upon learning that the life insurance premiums depended on whether one had used tobacco in the past 6 months said "even just one cigarette with a glass of chardonay 4 months ago???" The regional president was there also and commented "damn. That's one expensive cigarette..."
walking down the street with the wrong color skin shouldn't warrant being hassled by a wanna be cop.
That's not in dispute, but it also is another lame attempt to perpetuate a false narrative, or at least one not supported by any evidence. Oh but wait, who needs facts when you have perceptions?
And you can add Brisbon to the list too.
So you're saying that there was in fact something wrong with the way Martin was walking down the street that warranted him being approached by Zimmerman? Or required that he interact with Zimmerman? There's no law that says people have to interact with random strangers.
Let's flip this around a bit. What if Martin had had a gun, used it to kill Zimmerman and then got to be the one to tell the story: "Random dude approached me. He had a gun. What could I do other than kill him or risk being killed by him?" Looked at that way it seems like Martin's mistake was not having a gun to protect his side of the story.
Let's flip this around a bit. What if Martin had had a gun, used it to kill Zimmerman and then got to be the one to tell the story: "Random dude approached me. He had a gun. What could I do other than kill him or risk being killed by him?" Looked at that way it seems like Martin's mistake was not having a gun to protect his side of the story.
Possession of a weapon does not constitute an imminent threat to anyone. There are no accounts that Zimmerman brandished the weapon or threatened imminent harm to Martin until Martin initiated a physical altercation, at which time Zimmerman's weapon became a tool of self defense.
Teacher Terry
12-5-14, 3:01pm
Bae, with the Brown case the cop admitted that after he shot him Brown was running away & he made the decision to follow him. He should have waited for backup that was on the way. He was no longer a threat to the officer.
Bae, with the Brown case the cop admitted that after he shot him Brown was running away & he made the decision to follow him. He should have waited for backup that was on the way. He was no longer a threat to the officer.
I disagree with your conclusions.
Teacher Terry
12-5-14, 3:05pm
Also cops sometimes do target people. At one time we lived in a small mostly white suburb of a city & the small town cops had nothing better to do then hassle teens & young adults. Race did not matter-they loved giving young people a hard time. They had too much time on their hands & nothing else to do. These kids were not committing crimes. I actually was shocked because I had never lived somewhere that this happened before. One young man was walking home from a bar & the cops gave him a PWI. Walking intoxicated-almost home & doing nothing to disturb the peace. I am sure the next time he drove.
Also cops sometimes do target people. At one time we lived in a small mostly white suburb of a city & the small town cops had nothing better to do then hassle teens & young adults. Race did not matter-they loved giving young people a hard time. They had too much time on their hands & nothing else to do. These kids were not committing crimes. I actually was shocked because I had never lived somewhere that this happened before. One young man was walking home from a bar & the cops gave him a PWI. Walking intoxicated-almost home & doing nothing to disturb the peace. I am sure the next time he drove. Well, that does happen in those tidy little bedroom communities. I, would not be driving around in one of them in my old pickup after dark, because I just know I'd get stopped. It would be a challenge to conceal my annoyance, but I'd sure as heck do it, and cooperate.
flowerseverywhere
12-6-14, 12:03am
I have come to the conclusion the only thing that is going to stop these tragic deaths is a two pronged approach.
One is of course ongoing training with police about using force. In the stress of dealing with dangerous situations, using established protocols is very difficult. They are human after all, but clearly more has to be done.
The he second is personal responsibility. Stop being a victim and break the chains that you have put on yourself. Don't drop out of school, get away from gangs, don't dommit crimes. In other words get it together. I am surprised none of the leaders of poor communities never seem to publicly encourage this.
I have come to the conclusion the only thing that is going to stop these tragic deaths is a two pronged approach.
One is of course ongoing training with police about using force. In the stress of dealing with dangerous situations, using established protocols is very difficult. They are human after all, but clearly more has to be done.
The he second is personal responsibility. Stop being a victim and break the chains that you have put on yourself. Don't drop out of school, get away from gangs, don't dommit crimes. In other words get it together. I am surprised none of the leaders of poor communities never seem to publicly encourage this.
It doesn't fit the agenda of victimization pushed by Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, et al, to talk about this.
Tradd, was Pantaleo's supervisor there from the start of the incident? I'm not seeing that in the article. Or did she arrive after, once is was a crime scene?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/12/05/dont-support-laws-you-are-not-willing-to-kill-to-enforce/
I have come to the conclusion the only thing that is going to stop these tragic deaths is a two pronged approach.
One is of course ongoing training with police about using force. In the stress of dealing with dangerous situations, using established protocols is very difficult. They are human after all, but clearly more has to be done.
The he second is personal responsibility. Stop being a victim and break the chains that you have put on yourself. Don't drop out of school, get away from gangs, don't dommit crimes. In other words get it together. I am surprised none of the leaders of poor communities never seem to publicly encourage this.
I have to wonder, too, about our traditional selection of police officers. I don't know specific wages, but speculate that they are not well compensated. In my home town, cops were typically former high school football players and other toughs with little advanced education who were into a delusion of power by physical force. Locally policemen and sheriffs are often in the news for domestic violence and other non-racially related crimes, not to mention collusion with criminals. Not to say there are not wonderful policemen and it's a tough job, but sometimes you get what you pay for.
rodeosweetheart
12-6-14, 2:01pm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/12/05/dont-support-laws-you-are-not-willing-to-kill-to-enforce/
What a great article, and very sensible.
Tradd, was Pantaleo's supervisor there from the start of the incident? I'm not seeing that in the article. Or did she arrive after, once is was a crime scene?
It appears the black sergeant supervisor was there for the entire incident. She did nothing to intervene. She and another sergeant were offered immunity from prosecution to testify before the grand jury.
rodeosweetheart
12-6-14, 2:25pm
As an asthmatic, I can't watch this without getting physically sick. And if he urinated during the choke,that can be an involuntary reaction to suffocation, very common. And it would not be like a normal person, where if he could not talk, he was not suffocating. If that helps.
flowerseverywhere
12-6-14, 4:00pm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/12/05/dont-support-laws-you-are-not-willing-to-kill-to-enforce/
Now that is a great article.
personal note. i used to date a cop, for about 7 years. He came to me one night early in his career, appalled. Apparently a man chose to put his mattress out on a rather public street to sleep, after he had been told not to do this. The other officers gave him a choice: get arrested or get beaten. Since he didn't want to deal with jail, they then took him into a back alley and did just that. My ex was understandably messed up, it wasn't so much the above-the-law attitude, it was the fact that these officers were apparently looking forward to abusing this man. This was years ago, but the lesson he felt he walked away with has never left my mind: there are people who go into law enforcement not to enforce the law but to experience power over others or have their predilection for violence tacitly approved. not that this is news, but it has colored my thinking about so many questions of law enforcement brutality over the years.
Teacher Terry
12-6-14, 7:01pm
I just read that the Cleveland police dept is coming under fire from Eric Holder for excessive force. 18 months ago a Mr. Love was stopped for a traffic violation & was shot in the chest when his hands were up in the air in the car. He is now suing. This guy is not a gang member, thug, etc. Also I read that the small police dept from which the cop that shot Brown originally worked at was completely disbanded & the cops had to reapply for their jobs & they hired a lot from outside of the dept because excessive force was routine in that dept.
flowerseverywhere
12-6-14, 8:15pm
personal note. i used to date a cop, for about 7 years. He came to me one night early in his career, appalled. Apparently a man chose to put his mattress out on a rather public street to sleep, after he had been told not to do this. The other officers gave him a choice: get arrested or get beaten. Since he didn't want to deal with jail, they then took him into a back alley and did just that. My ex was understandably messed up, it wasn't so much the above-the-law attitude, it was the fact that these officers were apparently looking forward to abusing this man. This was years ago, but the lesson he felt he walked away with has never left my mind: there are people who go into law enforcement not to enforce the law but to experience power over others or have their predilection for violence tacitly approved. not that this is news, but it has colored my thinking about so many questions of law enforcement brutality over the years.
maybe they beat up someone mentally ill. Sometimes these "criminals" have a very low IQ. I often wonder when we hear of these police aLtracations if this could be a factor. Certainly in many areas of the country poor education is a factor. Unfortunately the bullies exist and they are who we,hear about.
If there IS a cultural difference in behaviors, and we change our laws, etc., to be more accepting........does that mean we're just "settling" and accepting more types of behavior, in order to avoid people feeling wronged by another type of cultural expectations? There are behaviors that most of us consider "civilized" (by all races in the U.S.). Does this problem boil down to certain people expecting their unacceptable behavior to be protected under the law? I see our country stooping lower and lower over many things.....in an attempt to be equally fair to everyone and not appear to step on anyone's rights.
I'm just asking a question.
If there IS a cultural difference in behaviors, and we change our laws, etc., to be more accepting........does that mean we're just "settling" and accepting more types of behavior, in order to avoid people feeling wronged by another type of cultural expectations? There are behaviors that most of us consider "civilized" (by all races in the U.S.). Does this problem boil down to certain people expecting their unacceptable behavior to be protected under the law? I see our country stooping lower and lower over many things.....in an attempt to be equally fair to everyone and not appear to step on anyone's rights.
I'm just asking a question. Making robbery and looting,etc. legal, to accommodate them? Oh, heck no. But, I kind of think that this is how the Media--TV, and Print(neither of which is "liberal")is conditioning some people: Strife, is situation normal. The unintended consequence could be, that the majority becomes so jaded that we no longer care. Just like coping with road traffic, in urban areas--it's there, but so what? Or bad weather--can't change it, either! Accepting (or avoidance of) offensive behavior on the part of um, let's call them: "various previously-oppressed minorities" will just be another part of dealing with life, and the path of least resistance. See how that works? Just be glad you don't live in the Middle East or someplace, where the bombs are falling.
ApatheticNoMore
12-7-14, 12:34pm
Change our laws to be more accepting of what? Selling loose cigarettes? I suspect civilization would collapse.
iris lilies
12-7-14, 1:21pm
Change our laws to be more accepting of what? Selling loose cigarettes? I suspect civilization would collapse.
For those who complain about the innocuousness of selling loosies, many in that same bunch would moan about getting rid of many similar public health laws. Not you ANM, but the crowd who thinks that Nanny G should protect them and especially The Children from health risks are always up for Big Gubmnt shutting down any potentially scary activity. Before we know it anti-microbial paint will be a requirement for painting the rooms of small children. etc.
We can't have it both ways with Nanny protecting us and Nanny ignoring black men who break the laws we've demanded be put in place.
Yeah, I'm going to be rolling my own loosies to sell. Just hope I can have enough saliva to make several thousand cigs a day.
Kind of an oops by Mrs. Garner. She was on Meet The Press with Al Sharpton this morning. She said her husband was selling loosies, because he needed the money. She said something like
I really don't believe it's a black and white issue. I really don't. My husband tried to get a job with the parks department, but you know with his asthma and all, he couldn't do it. And he's so overweight....and he's lazy." oops. Then shortly after that Sharpton was saying it was a multi-pronged problem, one of which we needed more jobs for these people. Ah......like for lazy people?
I'll bet Al was cringing when she said that.
Kind of an oops by Mrs. Garner. She was on Meet The Press with Al Sharpton this morning. She said her husband was selling loosies, because he needed the money. She said something like
I really don't believe it's a black and white issue. I really don't. My husband tried to get a job with the parks department, but you know with his asthma and all, he couldn't do it. And he's so overweight....and he's lazy." oops. Then shortly after that Sharpton was saying it was a multi-pronged problem, one of which we needed more jobs for these people. Ah......like for lazy people?
I'll bet Al was cringing when she said that.
Oh, boy, is that priceless. Mrs. Garner is quite the opposite of Michael Brown's stepfather with his "burn this b***h down" tirade.
Here's the link to the Meet the Press interview.
http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/eric-garners-widow-he-was-murdered-unjustly-n263371
gimmethesimplelife
12-7-14, 5:47pm
The U.N. is has been reviewing and condemning U.S. policing in general lately.True fact. I have mentioned the UN here before - on the long, long, long original thread re: Ferguson but it didn't seem to matter to others. To me this does matter as it is some official body comparison shopping this country to other countries and the US these days doesn't always come out so good in comparison to other First World countries. To me this matters a lot, actually.
For me, when the UN talks, I tend to listen. YMMV though. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-7-14, 5:55pm
personal note. i used to date a cop, for about 7 years. He came to me one night early in his career, appalled. Apparently a man chose to put his mattress out on a rather public street to sleep, after he had been told not to do this. The other officers gave him a choice: get arrested or get beaten. Since he didn't want to deal with jail, they then took him into a back alley and did just that. My ex was understandably messed up, it wasn't so much the above-the-law attitude, it was the fact that these officers were apparently looking forward to abusing this man. This was years ago, but the lesson he felt he walked away with has never left my mind: there are people who go into law enforcement not to enforce the law but to experience power over others or have their predilection for violence tacitly approved. not that this is news, but it has colored my thinking about so many questions of law enforcement brutality over the years.My belief is that we as a society need to somehow get an overall clue that not everyone who goes into police work is doing it for the right reasons. This and the fact that the police are not always your friend and it is best never to cooperate with the police in any way (unless it's glaring obvious that to do so is the right thing, and yes, there are such situations, I won't deny that). At our most recent neighborhood meeting, it was stressed that if stopped by the police to be polite and non-committal and to repeat over and over again something along the lines of - "I have nothing to say about X. Am I free to go now?" Apparently (so this presenter at the neighborhood meeting says) if you keep your cool, refuse to reveal anything, and constantly repeat "Am I free to go now?", the police tend to take it that you know your rights and are more likely to sue if they go overboard. I pass this advice to all here should you ever find yourself in a situation with the police through no fault of your own. Merry Christmas.....if this advice holds true it's a real gift. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-7-14, 5:58pm
I just read that the Cleveland police dept is coming under fire from Eric Holder for excessive force. 18 months ago a Mr. Love was stopped for a traffic violation & was shot in the chest when his hands were up in the air in the car. He is now suing. This guy is not a gang member, thug, etc. Also I read that the small police dept from which the cop that shot Brown originally worked at was completely disbanded & the cops had to reapply for their jobs & they hired a lot from outside of the dept because excessive force was routine in that dept.I hope he wins millions and works it for all the publicity he can! Publicity will encourage others to step forward and sue police departments across the US and perhaps will better get the word out internationally regarding the US police and how they run amok and are seemingly above the law. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-7-14, 6:01pm
Change our laws to be more accepting of what? Selling loose cigarettes? I suspect civilization would collapse.LOL good one. Like selling loose cigarettes that have not been taxed is going to lead to moral, ethical, and financial collapse. (sarcasm very much intended).
I can't say for other people what to do but I never go anywhere now without a charged smartphone with video capability. I consider it insurance against what America has become. YMMV. Rob
iris lilies
12-7-14, 6:51pm
LOL good one. Like selling loose cigarettes that have not been taxed is going to lead to moral, ethical, and financial collapse. (sarcasm very much intended).
I presume he paid tax on them when he bought them. But sure, he's not paying any business fees or taxes for his little endeavor, yet he is reaping the rewards of the business owners' investment in their district where they DO pay taxes, rent, etc. I'm sure that if they were allowed they'd station an employee out in front of their shop selling loosies, too.
Sounds like a double standard that you are advocating, some people are more special than others and can skirt laws and regs while others--nope, they are not special enough. And like Mrs. Garner says it's not a black and white issue until, of course, it becomes one since that's what is most useful to the muckrackers, the race thing.
LOL good one. Like selling loose cigarettes that have not been taxed is going to lead to moral, ethical, and financial collapse. (sarcasm very much intended).
But your sarcasm may (as usual>8)) be misinformed. There is a whole body of sociology around enforcing the small laws, sometimes referred to as quality of life laws, that may result in a decrease in the frequency of more serious crimes. Google Malcolm Gladwell and broken windows for some insight and the most recent publication of the topic.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
No one cares about loosies, but I don't know that I would say the cops should have more discretion to disregard laws that exist. Why add even more randomness to who gets policed?
For me, when the UN talks, I tend to listen. YMMV though. Rob
Yeah, too bad there isn't an emoji for giving someone the finger (for the UN, not you bro). That's how much my mileage differs.
What a great article, and very sensible.
+1
On a related note, has anyone seen that there's a new twitter feed about white people who commited minor crimes and got caught but did not get prosecuted:
#crimingwhilewhite
The point being that for the same offense black people are more harshly penalized. And that doesn't begin to address the stop and frisk harassment. (and here I'll mention Matt Taibbi's book "Divide" again - you can read the facts and data for yourself.)
I think that underlying these street protests is a group of people who are fed up with feeling like they're living under an occupied army situation.
gimmethesimplelife
12-8-14, 11:35pm
Yeah, too bad there isn't an emoji for giving someone the finger (for the UN, not you bro). That's how much my mileage differs.My take here is that my opinion and your opinion really don't matter much. What is at stake is the perception of international travelers and international business people and whether or not they spend and or invest in the United States. Now that the economy is global in nature things like the UN take on our policing matter because they can alter the perceptions of people who may invest large amounts of money in the US that we really need, especially as we don't' make much any more and are essentially a service and information economy. Unfortunately, since world economies are now so interwoven and since the US is so in debt, things like the UN take on our policing can very much negatively influence those this country would be wise to be courting. That's why I say the UN really matters.....even if to many of us it doesn't carry weight as we live here (and I tend to agree with the UN's take in general). Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-8-14, 11:40pm
I presume he paid tax on them when he bought them. But sure, he's not paying any business fees or taxes for his little endeavor, yet he is reaping the rewards of the business owners' investment in their district where they DO pay taxes, rent, etc. I'm sure that if they were allowed they'd station an employee out in front of their shop selling loosies, too.
Sounds like a double standard that you are advocating, some people are more special than others and can skirt laws and regs while others--nope, they are not special enough. And like Mrs. Garner says it's not a black and white issue until, of course, it becomes one since that's what is most useful to the muckrackers, the race thing.I can see where this man did wrong by selling the cigarettes as he did. I understand that there are rules and laws and regulations concerning this and that he was on the wrong side of said rules and laws and regulations. Granted. However, to me this does not equal the right to kill the man. Sorry, such a country that condones such and lets cops off for committing such acts does not deserve my faith or trust or energy or goodwill. Not a nice thing to say but America had earned this for what it lets it's police get away with.
Basic point - what this man did does not justify murder or even a chokehold. Fines, probation, jail time even, fine. But not murder. Is such a feature of a country that you consider worth your faith or trust or energy or goodwill? I don't mean this insultingly in any way shape or form. It's a serious question. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-8-14, 11:42pm
On a related note, has anyone seen that there's a new twitter feed about white people who commited minor crimes and got caught but did not get prosecuted:
#crimingwhilewhite
The point being that for the same offense black people are more harshly penalized. And that doesn't begin to address the stop and frisk harassment. (and here I'll mention Matt Taibbi's book "Divide" again - you can read the facts and data for yourself.)
I think that underlying these street protests is a group of people who are fed up with feeling like they're living under an occupied army situation.I'm waiting to get enough Amazon.com gift card codes from doing surveys to buy this book - It sounds really interesting and it also sounds like it has a take I'm likely to side with. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-9-14, 12:06am
A side note - something interesting - last Friday night I worked a Christmas party banquet shift at a law firm downtown. Around 8 PM things were starting to slow down and the catering company let some of us off the floor to go eat - this one company is great as you always get a free meal from them and the same food the guests get. Anyway, back to the point - one of the other banquet servers called her husband who told her that there was a protest about to happen downtown organized by an anarchist group.
Interesting the responses people had to this. I kept my mouth shut and said nothing as I've learned to zip it in such situations. But among 10 other servers there was a whole gamut of reactions from positive to negative. Interesting how something like a protest can bring out such heated opinions in people.
It turns out though that this protest was not violent and the only real issue the protesters caused was lying down in the streets - and yes, I can see where this is an issue. There is an event here in Phoenix the first Friday of the month called First Friday and for a mile or so all the museums and galleries downtown are open late and people just walk the length of Central Avenue where the museums and galleries are - all are free admission on First Friday so it's a bit of a cultural event. Intelligent in a way of the protestors to march on First Friday - a good chance of some media coverage if nothing else.
I myself would have marched but I didn't know of the protest in advance - Kind of disappointed that I didn't know of this and didn't march. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-9-14, 12:14am
I'm just like Chatty Rob tonight. LOL. Just came back to say that I do see some good in all of this police brutality - there seems to be much more awareness of this issues since the Ferguson shooting took place and now I've noticed that police shootings are gaining more coverage - something I truly applaud. Also some international coverage - again I truly applaud this as it may divert international tourism and investment away from America and towards other countries. This is one way to affect change I know of that works - financial consequences. Which is why I am so for instant pension loss for police officers that engage in such actions.
I only hope that the lawsuits in Ferguson don't result in payments out of court with gag orders preventing the winners from speaking of their gains. If these suits are successful, this will only encourage more people to step forward and claim their payday against the police nationwide and would really result in some fairly quick change. Once again, the operative point being - financial consequences. Coupled with publicity. I really do believe America is too far gone for anything else to work. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-9-14, 12:27am
Here's a video of the event. Tell me details about the chokehold you see, Rob. What sort of chokehold is it? Include your opinion on the witnesses hearing the fellow saying "I can't breath, I can't breath".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1ka4oKu1jo
Also, what technical background do you have in the combative arts?I came back and tried to watch the chokehold video that you posted but it is no longer available, Bae I will try searching on youtube for it. As to a technical background in the combative arts, two things - A. I don't have such, and B. To me, this is about basic human rights. Period. The police went too far. Hopefully there will be huge lawsuit settlements but that is not going to bring this man back to life. I don't know how I can forgive America for the fact there was no indictment. A very sad and terrifying state of affairs. Honestly, at this point I'm much more afraid of American police and their actions than the actions of outside based terrorists. Rob
They didn't kill the man for selling cigarettes, there was no intent to physically harm him at all.. What killed him was his own inattention to the state of his health, and that in spite of being in terrible shape, he chose to physically resist being arrested. They were attempting to restrain him, using a minimum of force, given the situation. I don't think saying: "pretty please, sir--come on down to the jail for us, and we'll buy you some ice cream" would work. Or would it? All there is to it. I'm thinking a few of you will settle for nothing less than giving select minorities a free pass, any time they do wrong--as though there should be a limit on the number of times an individual can be arrested, even if they continue to offend. After committing 20 or 30 crimes---just go ahead and ignore it---we don't want to seem like we are picking on them. Is that it? I'm concerned that the whole rioting thing has just caused a popular backlash that will generate even more public support for law and order(i.e.--My cops, Right or Wrong)--the opposite of what you and even those with legitimate concerns are advocating. Hope that helps you some. Thank Me.
The one thing that concerned me with this incident was the "I can't breathe" thing - being killed because one is struggling because either they can't breathe or they are panicking because they think they can't breathe and is unable to just "submit" is extreme. I'm not saying it happened here, but you could restrain a person in such a way that they will struggle even if they knew that was the worst possible thing to do.
I can see where this man did wrong by selling the cigarettes as he did. I understand that there are rules and laws and regulations concerning this and that he was on the wrong side of said rules and laws and regulations. Granted. However, to me this does not equal the right to kill the man. Sorry, such a country that condones such and lets cops off for committing such acts does not deserve my faith or trust or energy or goodwill. Not a nice thing to say but America had earned this for what it lets it's police get away with.
Basic point - what this man did does not justify murder or even a chokehold. Fines, probation, jail time even, fine. But not murder. Is such a feature of a country that you consider worth your faith or trust or energy or goodwill? I don't mean this insultingly in any way shape or form. It's a serious question. Rob
I think this was a terrible tragedy, and one not helped in any way by referring to it as murder. To me, it seems just another unfortunate consequence of criminalizing every activity that diminishes the tax flow to the all powerful state. It didn't matter if he was selling un-taxed cigarettes or 32oz fountain drinks, as both have been criminalized as being against the public interest.
The police officers on the scene were charged with the responsibility to take a repeat offender into custody, as required by the city and state. The repeat offender did not go willingly and the force used to gain control of him resulted in his un-timely death. Could they have let him go in this case? Sure, but that would only be delaying the inevitable.
I worry about becoming a police state and believe the more progressive we become, the faster we'll get there.
The one thing that concerned me with this incident was the "I can't breathe" thing - being killed because one is struggling because either they can't breathe or they are panicking because they think they can't breathe and is unable to just "submit" is extreme. I'm not saying it happened here, but you could restrain a person in such a way that they will struggle even if they knew that was the worst possible thing to do. I remember this--which was nearly 50 years ago. A kid I knew(and still do) was telling me at the time about his younger brother, and how sometimes YB was being obnoxious and would not leave him alone, and how he occasionally had to take him down and restrain him to get his point across--that being to just mind his own business. My buddy laughed about how every time that happened, YB would start pleading: "I can't breath, I can't breath, I can't breath". It was just a ploy, to escape further pressure from Big Brother, and to attract the attention of their Mom, to come to his rescue. LB is alive and well to this day, as far as I know. True Story.
I've got another anecdote: at the shop, there is a guy in his late-50's who is a retired po-liceman. He was a cop in a small town waaaay up North in the middle o' nowhere--about 5 miles from the Minnesoooota state line. Pretty much a remote, desolate, rural ghetto, and Norwegians are the oppres' Minority. Anyway, he hates exercise or anything like that, and he is not a big guy either. But, one day, he was showing some of us this maneuver, and he used it on a "volunteer" that he selected--a tall, muscular young man who liked to joke around. Anyway, this cop self-defense move involved quickly placing his hand on the side of the kid's neck, and applying pressure very briefly, and I mean he just rendered the boy No Threat. Brought him to his knees with that sleeper hold! I axed(asked) him if he would show me just how to apply it, and he declined, indicating that he was worried that I'd get in trouble with it. Darn. I already had a mental list of people I would try it out on. True Story.
I remember this--which was nearly 50 years ago. A kid I knew(and still do) was telling me at the time about his younger brother, and how sometimes YB was being obnoxious and would not leave him alone, and how he occasionally had to take him down and restrain him to get his point across--that being to just mind his own business. My buddy laughed about how every time that happened, YB would start pleading: "I can't breath, I can't breath, I can't breath". It was just a ploy, to escape further pressure from Big Brother, and to attract the attention of their Mom, to come to his rescue. LB is alive and well to this day, as far as I know. True Story.
Well, there's the proof - I stand corrected.
Teacher Terry
12-9-14, 2:03pm
When he said he could not breathe they should have let him go. He was surrounded by a ton of cops so he wasn't going to get away. Things need to change nationwide & I hope that all the protests force police dept's to change. Some are fine but many are brutal. I have lived in places where both have been true. I hope the cop that shot the kid with a toy gun gets indicted.
gimmethesimplelife
12-9-14, 2:31pm
Here is a question I consider non-inflammatory and it's something I've been wondering a lot lately. The question is this: Have these police shooting incidents been taking place all along and just lately since Ferguson the media has given them much more coverage? Or maybe there was light coverage but since Ferguson we are hearing the coverage much more? What do you'all think? I'm honestly 50/50 on this one. Rob
To me, the word of the day is, "Dubious".
We live in a culture where increasingly, it seems the ends justify the means. The ends in this case were dubious - prosecution for sale of loosies that already brought in state revenue once, do we really need that? The means were also dubious. Physical force if necessary to take down a non-violent law breaker for a non-violent crime. 99.999% of the time those means would have been disregarded / accepted because the ends were achieved and nothing happened. But it doesn't mean the means to this particular end aren't dubious.
Maybe the trouble is that we've got two different issues to address, ends and means. Looking at both parts at once is too complicated, and looking at one part at a time has people arguing which issue should be on the table, or which should come first, instead of at least dealing with one of them.
Here is a question I consider non-inflammatory and it's something I've been wondering a lot lately. The question is this: Have these police shooting incidents been taking place all along and just lately since Ferguson the media has given them much more coverage? Or maybe there was light coverage but since Ferguson we are hearing the coverage much more? What do you'all think? I'm honestly 50/50 on this one. Rob I think coverage comes and goes depending on circumstance, including how visible the crime and arrest attempt is, and what else the media would like us to be worrying about at any particular time. Rodney King comes to mind, it's not like police incidents are something new.
the UN take on our policing can very much negatively influence those this country would be wise to be courting.
As you say, YMMV. I hope we never sacrifice innocent US citizens to placate misinformed foreign opinion.
gimmethesimplelife
12-9-14, 2:39pm
When he said he could not breathe they should have let him go. He was surrounded by a ton of cops so he wasn't going to get away. Things need to change nationwide & I hope that all the protests force police dept's to change. Some are fine but many are brutal. I have lived in places where both have been true. I hope the cop that shot the kid with a toy gun gets indicted.+ 1000 I couldn't agree with you more, Teacher Terry. It will be interesting to see what happens to the cop who shot the 12 year old with the toy gun. This case I'm hoping will get a lot of attention - not just domestically but also internationally. Imagine the perceptions of America worldwide if there were no indictment WITH A MINOR INVOLVED AND NO CRIME COMMITTED.
I find it amazing that there is no talk of financial consequences for the United States due to these incidents of police brutality. And with money being so revered - why no realization that these police actions very well could impact tourism and deter investment in the US from wealthy foreigners? I wouldn't be surprised if this continues, investments start getting pulled out of the United States - just like in third world countries when they get iffy. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-9-14, 2:47pm
As you say, YMMV. I hope we never sacrifice innocent US citizens to placate misinformed foreign opinion.And once again here is an example of perception at work. I don't consider the police officers involved in Ferguson and the Garner case to be innocent. Yes, there was no indictment, granted. Not good enough for me. My take is that there should have been trials in both cases and I'm afraid you will find if you dig for it that much of the rest of the world outside the US agrees with me. This is going to impact tourism and international investment in the US if this continues - these incidents of over the top police behavior = and maybe we need to suffer financially to learn that there are consequences dished out to the US by the rest of the world - we are not above consequences for inhumane police behavior. Given that I have zilch faith or trust in the system, it will be interesting for me to sit back and watch said consequences be dished out. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-9-14, 2:57pm
I think this was a terrible tragedy, and one not helped in any way by referring to it as murder. To me, it seems just another unfortunate consequence of criminalizing every activity that diminishes the tax flow to the all powerful state. It didn't matter if he was selling un-taxed cigarettes or 32oz fountain drinks, as both have been criminalized as being against the public interest.
The police officers on the scene were charged with the responsibility to take a repeat offender into custody, as required by the city and state. The repeat offender did not go willingly and the force used to gain control of him resulted in his un-timely death. Could they have let him go in this case? Sure, but that would only be delaying the inevitable.
I worry about becoming a police state and believe the more progressive we become, the faster we'll get there.Alan, I'm really trying to understand here, I really am. How is it that you don't see this as murder? Mr. Garner did die as a result of his interaction with officers, would you not agree with this? I'm really trying to understand this. And why when Mr. Garner said, "I can't breathe", why is it acceptable that the police did not take this statement seriously, if for no other reason, to prevent litigation and to prevent more animosity/hatred/disgust/disillusionment/mistrust towards the police on a nationwide basis. One would think (?) that the police in general are now stuck in a nationwide trial of sorts, with any excessive action being brought to light almost instantly due to technology. One would think that the police, or at least police chiefs nationwide would understand this.
This issue is not going to go away I'm afraid. All that I can see that might work is grave financial consequences, as I've stated numerous times before. At least there are people in the US and if you dig, many internationally that see these actions as against basic human rights. Quite hypocritical too for a nation that put itself on a pedestal as a champion of liberty and freedom. Rob
PS I came back to add two comments - First, I do agree with you that this a terrible tragedy. Definitely.
Second - my take is that the US in general already is a police state to some degree. Case in point, when I can't stay out until the art museum closes at nine pm on Wednesday evenings due to being afraid of the police - something is seriously wrong with this society. When at a neighborhood meeting, we have speakers - professionals, too - informing us to never trust the police and to never answer any questions to may direct towards you and to ask - Am I free to go now? - repeatedly, so that the police understand that you know your rights and are more likely to sue - something is seriously wrong with this society. When people in a large city neighborhood upgrade to cheap smart phones with video abilities due to fear of the police and consider smartphones with video as potential insurance/weapons against the police, something is seriously wrong with this society. Granted this is not the former Soviet Union (though with the NSA and what they get away with I often question if we are basically that different)......but definitely there are serious issues with this society that are not being addressed and that are not going away. Rob
Alan, I'm really trying to understand here, I really am. How is it that you don't see this as murder? Murder is premeditated, I see no evidence of intent. Using that word to describe the event serves no purpose other than to generate an unfounded, and incorrect, emotional response.
when I can't stay out until the art museum closes at nine pm on Wednesday evenings due to being afraid of the police - something is seriously wrong with this society.
As one rock poet once sang "this is no social crisis, just another tricky day for you."
ToomuchStuff
12-9-14, 3:23pm
When he said he could not breathe they should have let him go. He was surrounded by a ton of cops so he wasn't going to get away. Things need to change nationwide & I hope that all the protests force police dept's to change. Some are fine but many are brutal. I have lived in places where both have been true. I hope the cop that shot the kid with a toy gun gets indicted.
The investigation of the case, shows that the ORANGE PLUG (the one that has been required by law for some time and is ILLEGAL to remove) was removed. The gun looked like a real thing and was being waved around.
A gun being waved at you is clearly a case against a criminal charge, as self defense is a legal, provable defense in this situation. The criminal charges should be filed against the person that removed the plug (might have been the parent, might have been a sibling, might have been the deceased)
That doesn't mean he won't face civil liability, jointly with the city. (pretty common to see)
As someone who has been at gunpoint multiple times, as well as someone who walked around, on Halloween as a kid, with a full size, replica of a machine gun (BEFORE the days of the orange plug) I have seen this from BOTH sides. All the kid would have had to do is what the officer told him to do.
ToomuchStuff
12-9-14, 3:28pm
Murder is premeditated, I see no evidence of intent. Using that word to describe the event serves no purpose other than to generate an unfounded, and incorrect, emotional response.
Not entirely true, there are degree's of murder (remember the English language is NOT the same as LEGALESE). There is also manslaughter, accidental death and I think in some states accidental homicide.
I do agree this thread drags up emotion against logic. Law officers train to try to keep emotions in check but it doesn't always happen (adrenaline, other officer gets hurt, etc, human nature).
ApatheticNoMore
12-9-14, 3:40pm
I find it amazing that there is no talk of financial consequences for the United States due to these incidents of police brutality. And with money being so revered - why no realization that these police actions very well could impact tourism and deter investment in the US from wealthy foreigners? I wouldn't be surprised if this continues, investments start getting pulled out of the United States - just like in third world countries when they get iffy.
it will be pulled if they think social instability is a threat to their investments, but a pretty brutal social order can also be just what investors are looking for, it just depends on whether they perceive it promotes instability or stability however brutal, sometimes the brutal stability is specifically to protect investors. In the U.S. of course it appears as social instability at present, but it's mostly very contained. Thinking it will be pulled for moral reasons strikes me as naïve. Yea, yea and apple subcontracts factories in China where they install suicide nets to prevent workers from jumping to their death because working conditions are so bad people would rather kill themselves. Thinking tourists for the most part make decisions that way seems equally implausible, I mean of course they could, as people could buy fair trade chocolate rather than chocolate made by slaves, but the "social responsibility" market for most anything is a niche market.
Not entirely true, there are degree's of murder (remember the English language is NOT the same as LEGALESE). There is also manslaughter, accidental death and I think in some states accidental homicide.
And of all those quoted, only one infers an intent to kill. The evidence indicates that murder is the wrong word to use in this case.
Teacher Terry
12-9-14, 3:51pm
The dispatcher reported that eyewitnesses stated that they thought the gun was a toy. Given that information the cop should not have been so trigger happy.
ToomuchStuff
12-9-14, 3:53pm
And of all those quoted, only one infers an intent to kill. The evidence indicates that murder is the wrong word to use in this case.
I haven't gone through this entire thread and read the whole thing. I clicked on something wrong and after a few fat finger mistakes (smashed my hand yesterday, still feeling it), I ended up reading something on the kid with the toy gun. As I have family that have been on both sides of the law, with some crossover, both directions, and with the number of lawyers I have called friends, I thought it was appropriate to make sure that people realize there is a distinction.:+1:
ToomuchStuff
12-9-14, 3:54pm
The dispatcher reported that eyewitnesses stated that they thought the gun was a toy. Given that information the cop should not have been so trigger happy.
EXACTLY why you look for the ORANGE plug. With all the school killings, once you don't see that, your in defense mode and it is up to the suspect to determine the next course of action.
EXACTLY why you look for the ORANGE plug. With all the school killings, once you don't see that, your in defense mode and it is up to the suspect to determine the next course of action.
What's to stop a Bad Actor from painting the end of a real gun orange, to get a couple of seconds advantage over a police officer?
And in a stressful situation, why do you think an orange barrel would necessarily be correctly observed by someone who may be experiencing significant physiological reactions to that stress?
http://www.killology.com/art_psych_combat.htm
Murder is premeditated, I see no evidence of intent. Using that word to describe the event serves no purpose other than to generate an unfounded, and incorrect, emotional response.
While I agree that there is no evidence of intent, your definition of murder (requiring premeditation) is incorrect.
You are apparently confusing 1st degree murder (which generally does require premeditation and intent) with other degrees of murder which can result from acts that are intentional but not premeditated (common definition of 2nd degree murder) and even an unintentional killing while committing or attempting to commit a non violent felony (common definition of 3rd degree murder).
The exact language will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but I don't know of any states that require premeditation for 2nd or 3rd degree murder.
it will be interesting for me to sit back and watch said consequences be dished out.
Meh, the lines are too long at Disney anyway. Hopefully the consequences are nothing more than a few waiters being laid off. :doh:
I deal with inbound business everyday. Not a peep on the topic.
But I still find your argument offensive. If you want to argue the merits fine. But to say the outcome should be different to pander for a few dollars is pathetic. Principles of justice should not be for sale.
While I agree that there is no evidence of intent, your definition of murder (requiring premeditation) is incorrect.
I stand corrected on using the term "premeditated". While definitions vary slightly from one jurisdiction to another, the general rule is murder requires intent (which is why 3rd degree murder is commonly known as voluntary manslaughter as intent may be lacking). My overall point to Rob was that declaring the action as murder implies intent not in evidence.
The novelty has worn off of these "thug pushes his luck too far" stories. This stuff getting to be everyday fare in the news, even though it has occurred on a daily basis for a very, very long time. It really isn't a new development. Face it, in a country with 300 million plus residents, odds are, something ugly is going on, somewhere, 24-7-365. And you can't cure it. I've got to take care of myself, and you've got to take care of yourselves, and the Michael browns or whoever need to start taking care of themselves, by using good sense when encountering an armed police officer. Rioters only validate old stereotypes. But, let's move on, Folks; there's nothing to see here. Be concerned about stuff that matters in your world, that will produce a benefit in your own life, if you live it right. The media is just using us, by stirring the pot. It's a circus. Try not to let it rule your life. Hope that helps you some.
ToomuchStuff
12-11-14, 3:05pm
What's to stop a Bad Actor from painting the end of a real gun orange, to get a couple of seconds advantage over a police officer?
And in a stressful situation, why do you think an orange barrel would necessarily be correctly observed by someone who may be experiencing significant physiological reactions to that stress?
http://www.killology.com/art_psych_combat.htm
Nothing is to stop that, anymore then someone may be hiding with a sniper rifle, pointing at anyone at anytime. IMHE, I just think 8 to 12 year old kids are not going to have the tactical knowledge to paint a barrel orange, but are apt to drill the orange plug out, as well as permant marker or shoe polish a toy gun to make it look read. (seen it)
Also LEO's and soldiers have more training then the average gun owner IMHE. They tend to be more observant.
Doesn't excuse the kid of the responsibility for his actions/reactions, IMHO. (as someone who one of the gunpoints was at LEO's weopon's, until they determined I wasn't who they were after)
Also LEO's and soldiers have more training then the average gun owner IMHE. They tend to be more observant.
I don't much much faith in their level of training and skills of observation in stressful situations. I regularly train in shoothouses with law enforcement, I see what often happens, and it is difficult to work around basic human biology...
http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Woman-shot-by-San-Jose-police-5689036.php
I don't much much faith in their level of training and skills of observation in stressful situations. I regularly train in shoothouses with law enforcement, I see what often happens, and it is difficult to work around basic human biology...
I agree, after years of training in live fire houses and going through thousands of simulations designed to induce stressful environments, survival is the primary focus. It's easy to take on an observer role before a weapon is pointed in your direction, but less common afterward.
Since you kids are dragging on and on with this kind of thing, slicing and dicing it, can we discuss the young, unarmed woman who was doused with flammable liquid in her car and set on fire, in Mississippi? It is reported that before she succumbed to her burn trauma, she communicated with rescue workers who arrived on the scene, and may have given clues as to the identity of her assailant. No arrests have been made, and very little comment from authorities. Yet, lots and lots of scuttlebutt from online commentaries about news stories of this incident indicate that----well, some controversial issues may be revealed. The victim is Caucasian , and there is much speculation that her attacker is not. But, that isn't supposed to matter, is it? Anyway, it is a very heinous crime. Let's show some concern, and see what happens.
Teacher Terry
12-12-14, 9:21pm
I have not heard about that. How horrible for that poor woman.
http://abc7chicago.com/news/teen-charged-in-shooting-death-of-15-year-old-demario-bailey/436475/
This sort of thing happens in Chicago and other big cities all the time. Black kid killed for his coat in front of his twin brother. 15 years old. The kids who did the killing were just a few years older. Kid killed seems to be one of the good ones.
My point is that to the "black lives matter" folks don't seem to give a flying fig about all the black kids getting killed by other blacks, but only the very few high profile cases. It's only the cases involving the white cops that fit their narrative of Whitey keeping the black man down.
My point is that to the "black lives matter" folks don't seem to give a flying fig about all the black kids getting killed by other blacks, but only the very few high profile cases.
I also see precious little attention paid to addressing the structural issues that foster this culture. Well, that's not completely true, I see some of our Fearless Leaders cheerfully supporting policies that encourage this nightmare, as they have for decades. I wonder why they do that?
To put it blunty, as I've read multiple places, slavery as it existed before the Civil War might not exist any longer, but the blacks are still enslaved - to a system that keeps them chained to the public handouts, lack of education and no real future. Black culture exemplified by the thugocracy is rotten to the core. Black kids who do well in school/want to do well are shamed by their peers for "acting white."
Have all the handouts since Johnson's Great Society programs in the mid-60s done any good? Seems not.
Bae, have you read Daniel Patrick Moniyhan's report on the black family, back when he was an assistant secretary of labor in the early 60s? You can find it online. Quite interesting reading.
ApatheticNoMore
12-15-14, 4:33pm
Black kids who do well in school/want to do well are shamed by their peers for "acting white."
but it's by no means exclusive to blacks, because isn't' calling such people "nerds" a pretty long standing part of white culture? Obviously. Though the degree of it probably does vary socioeconomically etc..
There's a big difference between being called a nerd and being told you're "acting white" aka being a traitor to your race.
ApatheticNoMore
12-15-14, 5:17pm
There's a big difference between being called a nerd and being told you're "acting white" aka being a traitor to your race.
perhaps, but I don't think there necessarily is at the emotional level for the kid being called it, they're a kid or tween or teenager being called names and what is communicated to them about doing well in school by those names.
They're not thinking socio-politically, like some sociology grad student, or something. :)
Support for doing well in school may be greater at home or it may not, and even if it is, it's very confusing for a kid to be pushed in all different directions.
Black kids who do well in school/want to do well are shamed by their peers for "acting white."
Sad that that's the case. Of course, black kids aren't the only ones subjected to crappy peer pressure like that. Plenty of girls of all races who have an interest/skill with math/science get shamed into downplaying that part of themselves as well.
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