Obama Opens The Door To Cuba...

[Packy]

It is overdue. That said, I just hope Cuba doesn't become another money pit for USA foreign aid. Their lack of it is one true contribution to the USA, in place of fine cigars! Also, I've read that their level of access to health care is rated higher than ours. That, being 50 years into the aftermath of the exodus of the Professional class to south Florida, after the Castro Regime took over. Cubans have had to Live Simply, but it prolly isn't Voluntary. I would guess that USA financial interests are chomping at the bit, to invest in the crown jewel of the Caribbean. I quickly checked the F'book accounts of two "acquaintances" who are dogmatic reactionary partisan-politics/stadium sports/arena music/gun nut/megachurch fundy religion/family values/march-in-lockstep/fascist fanatic/hyper-patriotic right-wing ideologues, and both of them are going crazy with rhetoric about how (President)Obama is "hooking up with the commies". They, BTW, are very entertaining, as well as dumb. Kind of like the 3 Stooges. So, what do you kids think? About Cuba, not the 3 Stooges?

[bae]

Am I, a free American citizen, allowed to hop onto a plane and travel there legally yet, without creating some fictional academic/sporting/research/governmental/cultural-exchangy reason for being there?

I mean, sure, I *could* hop on one of those $79 flights from Vancouver in BC, But That Would Be Wrong...

[Teacher Terry]

I agree with you Packy! I am also so glad for the hostage that finally got to come home.

[JaneV2.0]

Yes. About damn time. Never shoulda happened. Nixon's fault.

[Alan]

Yes. About damn time. Never shoulda happened. Nixon's fault.
Really? So you got some tin-pot dictator and his ultra cool executioner, Che Guevara, killing thousands of people during their revolutionary tribunals stage, seizing huge amounts of American assets and aligning themselves with our cold war enemies to the extent that they place missiles 90 miles from our border, pointing at us, and everything shoulda been just peachy?

Of course, if the Kennedy's had been successful at killing them, this never woulda happened. Just sayin..

[LDAHL]

Yes. About damn time. Never shoulda happened. Nixon's fault.

How was the embargo "Nixon's fault"?

[Packy]

The year was 1959, when Castro led an insurgency to overthrow Batista, the corrupt and often brutal Cuban dictator who was friendly to American Business interests. I believe he went into exile in Spain, rather than face the firing squad, as did some 600+ Batista loyalists and officials in his regime. At that time, Richard Nixon had served as Vice President in the Eisenhower Regime---er--Administration(1953-1961), and was elected President in 1969. Initially, it was thought that Castro might be okay, but he allied himself with the Soviet Union. The Ruskies saw it as a strategic--but moreso-- a political advantage, and of course that generated a lot of tension and anxiety about the threat of Com'nism in the Western Hemisphere. . But, instead of chasing the Russians completely out of our backyard and liberating Cuba, our fearless leaders sent half a million troops around the other side of the world, to keep the Com'niss' from taking over an out-of-the-way, backward place called Viet Nam! Kinda makes no sense, does it? Yes, I agree with Alan--we shoulda disposed of Mr Castro as soon as possible, when his ideals became apparent and he turned on the USA., and then stayed out of 'Nam. My guess is that the policy of madness kept a war from being fought so close to(or on) American land(the NIMBY effect), yet gave the military-industrial warhawks a steady project to keep them occupied. But, hindsight is 20-20, especially mine.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Something that colors my opinion of Cuba - one of my relatives in Salburg, Austria, has been to Cuba as being an Austrian citizen, there is no hassle with legally getting to Cuba. This relative told me Cuba offers something the United States doesn't - apparently children play in the streets in Havana and no one is scared or worried about it. Apparently it is safe to do so and the fear that we have of our own shadow these days in the United States about safety/security doesn't exist there, or maybe doesn't exist to the overwhelming point it does in the United States.

Now I have never been to Cuba - I'm just going on what family has told me - but if what I have posted my relative said is true - then Cuba has something to offer/teach to Americans in my book. Definitely. And BIG KUDOS for Obama for opening Cuba up - long long long overdue. Rob

[bae]

They have great healthcare there too, Rob. When are you moving?

[gimmethesimplelife]

They have great healthcare there too, Rob. When are you moving?From what I understand they have socialized medicine there and since the Soviet Union fell they have achieved incredible results with socialized herbal medicine and the lifespans in Cuba might surprise you, Bae. Definitely Cuba is not without a few lessons for the United States. And vice versa, I'll give you that, but Cuba is not all bad in my book. There are some Americans - some with criminal records on the run, some not - who have managed to get to Cuba and the government granted them political asylum once they asked for it. It is not as if there have never been Americans who have fled to Cuba for whatever reason. That said, the climate there would not suit well. I don't do hot and humid very well but Cuba is definitely as fascinating country with something to teach/offer. Rob

[Packy]

I can buy into what you are saying, gimme. The Cubans are very tough on crime--one thing Castro is supposed to have done is to maintain a strict law and order society, for two or three generations, now. An environment like that on a Caribbean Island, is just what you want, so that the foreign tourists will feel safe and secure and come and spend their money staying in luxurious hotels and resorts owned by Multinational corporations----when that eventually happens. A no-Thug Zone. You can't say that with complete confidence about Mexico or Central America, can you? Or Florida or Arizona? That said, there is a limit to what Obama is going to do by executive order. Lifting the Embargo (some of which was added during the Clinton administration)is not one of them--it is strictly up to Congress. So, it won't be overnight. Plus, the Cuban Government has much to do to change its' policies, as well. Though the Media is doing it's usual pot-stirring, the reality is that it's a step, not a leap in that direction.

[LDAHL]

I always took the claims of Cuba as a Socialist Paradise with a grain of salt; what with all those people risking their lives to escape. Still, it has some value as a sort of totalitarian theme park for people with hard currency to spend on a cheap vacation. Perhaps, when the time comes, they can build an animatronic Fidel to give five-hour speeches from a balcony for the tourists while they shop for Che bobbleheads.

Also, all that cash the Soviets and Venezuelans spent over the years propping the Castros up might have gone into more dangerous mischief. And would Vegas have the stature it does today if Havana were still accessible? So all in all, our past relationship with Cuba hasn't been all that unsatisfactory. I'm not sure trading with them will make that much difference. it hasn't made the Chinese any less oppressive.

[kib]

It's too bad that we can't actually observe what a "pure" social construct so different from ours looks like without impacting it - i.e. changing it to look more like what we have here. We have an extremely interesting real life, non-theoretical example of how a government and a zeigeist other than our demo-capitalist one works (and how/where it fails), but all we can think of is how to push in there and turn it into capitalist Disneyland before gleaning anything useful that might implement change :0! in our thoughts about how to live.

We've basically trashed all the indigenous cultures on the planet that we might have learned from.
This isn't indigenous in the same sense, but it's evolved with some separation from the Western Mind for 60+ years and instead of learning from that, we're going to annihilate it.

[LDAHL]

It's too bad that we can't actually observe what a "pure" social construct so different from ours looks like without impacting it - i.e. changing it to look more like what we have here. We have an extremely interesting real life, non-theoretical example of how a government and a zeigeist other than our demo-capitalist one works (and how/where it fails), but all we can think of is how to push in there and turn it into capitalist Disneyland before gleaning anything useful that might implement change :0! in our thoughts about how to live.

We've basically trashed all the indigenous cultures on the planet that we might have learned from.
This isn't indigenous in the same sense, but it's evolved with some separation from the Western Mind for 60+ years and instead of learning from that, we're going to annihilate it.

Outside of a petri dish, there's never been anything like a pure culture. North Korea comes pretty close. They do a pretty good job of isolating themselves.

[kib]

Whatever. I knew you'd nitpick one word or another, but the concept stands, this is one of the closest things we have to a functional culture that's not ours and has minimal overlap, it's an opportunity for learning. The fact that North Korea doesn't overlap and appears to be horrible is irrelevant.

[rodeosweetheart]

Cuba intrigues me, as both my mother and son have been there--mom to gamble in the 1940's, and my son as part of a "cultural exchange." He came back with Cuban cigars, so he certainly did not live up to his end of the bargain, but he said it was beautiful.

[LDAHL]

Outside of a petri dish, there's never been anything like a pure culture. North Korea comes pretty close. They do a pretty good job of isolating themselves.

I'd argue against the "minimal overlap" in Cuba's case. Marxism is a Western idea (albeit not a very good one). Cuba has survived largely on the patronage of Marxist enemies of Western Liberalism, and it's ruling dynasty has largely defined itself as boldly opposing the corrupt capitalist imperialists. I don't think you could look at Cuba as a sort of control group independent of Western culture.

[catherine]

I know there aren't too many Catholics here, but Mother Jones just gave Pope Francis credit for brokering the deal.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/12/pope-francis-cuba-us-deal-diplomacy

[bae]

This isn't indigenous in the same sense, but it's evolved with some separation from the Western Mind for 60+ years and instead of learning from that, we're going to annihilate it.

Seems to me Cuba has been actively interacting with most of the rest of the world for 60+ years. Just not the USA.

[Packy]

Babab Wawa did one of hew fabuwous intewviews with Pidel Castwo. Just thought I'd thwow that in thew, fow youw information.

[kib]

Seems to me Cuba has been actively interacting with most of the rest of the world for 60+ years. Just not the USA. Perhaps I perceive them as more isolated because they are an island, so the influence of those allowed to visit may have been tempered by distance and a lack of tourist interest. It doesn't appear that Cuba is pandering to tourists of any stripe. They've also been under harsh conditions and yet they've thrived without focusing as much on materialism, and they seem to be doing better than we are by a number of standards. While I too take Cuban "paradise" with a grain of salt, I'd like to actually see what the culture has evolved into before we rush in and change it.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Perhaps I perceive them as more isolated because they are an island, so the influence of those allowed to visit may have been tempered by distance and a lack of tourist interest. It doesn't appear that Cuba is pandering to tourists of any stripe. They've also been under harsh conditions and yet they've thrived without focusing as much on materialism, and they seem to be doing better than we are by a number of standards. While I too take Cuban "paradise" with a grain of salt, I'd like to actually see what the culture has evolved into before we rush in and change it.This is exactly how I feel about Cuba.....Rob

[LDAHL]

Perhaps I perceive them as more isolated because they are an island, so the influence of those allowed to visit may have been tempered by distance and a lack of tourist interest. It doesn't appear that Cuba is pandering to tourists of any stripe. They've also been under harsh conditions and yet they've thrived without focusing as much on materialism, and they seem to be doing better than we are by a number of standards. While I too take Cuban "paradise" with a grain of salt, I'd like to actually see what the culture has evolved into before we rush in and change it.

I like this take on that particular view (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/395130/tribe-liberty-jonah-goldberg/page/0/2 ):
“But, hey, let’s say it all works out. Let’s say that the policy of constructive engagement — so vilified by the Left when applied to South Africa — succeeds beyond our wildest dreams in Cuba. Let’s say the place becomes rich, technologically advanced, and bourgeois in the blink of an eye. The people get their modern cars and Kentucky Fried Chicken franchises. Moreover, let’s assume that, post-Castro, the country becomes democratic, or at least democratizing. In short, let’s say everything Democrats (and some more committed leftists) say they want to happen in Cuba actually happens. What then? Well, here’s my prediction: Then the Left will start to hate Cuba.

In no time, we will start seeing wistful stories in the New York Times about the “lost” Cuba, when things were simpler and life’s pleasures were attained outside of grubby commerce and filthy lucre. Suddenly we will hear about the persistent problem of Cuban racism — long on display, but ignored, in the lily-white upper echelons of the Cuban Communist Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Cuba). Nostalgia for a new “Old Havana,” where the lines were long, but the hearts were full, will erupt across Park Slope and Takoma Park. The Nation will run mournful memoirs and polemics from Naomi Klein or Naomi Wolf or some other person named Naomi, about the brutal alienation that capitalism brings. And I will laugh at them.”

[iris lilies]

I like this take on that particular view (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/395130/tribe-liberty-jonah-goldberg/page/0/2 ):
“But, hey, let’s say it all works out. Let’s say that the policy of constructive engagement — so vilified by the Left when applied to South Africa — succeeds beyond our wildest dreams in Cuba. Let’s say the place becomes rich, technologically advanced, and bourgeois in the blink of an eye. The people get their modern cars and Kentucky Fried Chicken franchises. Moreover, let’s assume that, post-Castro, the country becomes democratic, or at least democratizing. In short, let’s say everything Democrats (and some more committed leftists) say they want to happen in Cuba actually happens. What then? Well, here’s my prediction: Then the Left will start to hate Cuba.

In no time, we will start seeing wistful stories in the New York Times about the “lost” Cuba, when things were simpler and life’s pleasures were attained outside of grubby commerce and filthy lucre. Suddenly we will hear about the persistent problem of Cuban racism — long on display, but ignored, in the lily-white upper echelons of the Cuban Communist Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Cuba). Nostalgia for a new “Old Havana,” where the lines were long, but the hearts were full, will erupt across Park Slope and Takoma Park. The Nation will run mournful memoirs and polemics from Naomi Klein or Naomi Wolf or some other person named Naomi, about the brutal alienation that capitalism brings. And I will laugh at them.”

Ah Jonah, I love him so much. He makes me laugh.

[Packy]

I Left this thread alone, hoping you kids would do Right by it? Ha. Get It? They need to start naming Football teams the "Rights" and the "Lefts". Then manic-zealous fans can root for their favorite ideology/sports team. When, there really is no difference between the two, as it relates to them. The players on opposing teams have far more in common with each other, than they do with the Spectators. See? I initially shelved predictions, that I had thought about posting last week. The Cuba of 20 years from now will have: Beachfront property occupied by one handicapped-accessible 600-room Hotel after another. The world's tallest hurricane-resistant office building. The construction of a 90-mile tunnel linking the Island to the Mainland(Florida) will be completed. There will be at least 135 stores belonging to the company formerly known as WalMarts in Havana, alone. It's now owned by a SuperBank on Wall Street, which is now owned by Bejing. And by then, McDonBurgKinHardinandOut Restaurants, or "McOut" (the result of mergers and acquisitions)will be all over town, too. Cuba, where the birth rate was the lowest in the western Hemisphere under Castro, now has a huge population boom--from immigration all over the Caribbean and the Middle East, with the largest Islamic population in the west. Plus, USA interests will be fracking for more oil & mining copper, bauxite, whatever. Commercial Marijuana will be the #1 cash crop. Progress, as Promised. How do you like that?