soy

[Molly]

Lessisbest,

You posted that you consider soy as poison. Can you explain? It used to be that everyone was touting soy, but now I hear it should be avoided. Thanks.

[lessisbest]

I have a file folder that is about 2" thick with information I've collected over the last 25-years about soy - good and bad - but mostly bad. I'll suggest reading the book, "The Whole Soy Story" by Kaayla T. Daniel, PhD, CCN. This link has a presentation she gave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ij14ET-8Fg

[Suzanne]

Some women seem to be okay with soy - those who produce equol. This piece comes from http://www.drweil.com/…/…/Too-Many-Pounds-Heart-Trouble.html.

"Why Soy for Hot Flashes Works for Some, Not All
Adding whole soy foods to your diet may quell hot flashes, but it's only likely to help if you're one of those women whose bodies produce equol, a soy metabolite. A study published online on November 6, 2014 by the journal Menopause concludes that 20 to 50 percent of North American and European women produce equol. Seattle area researchers surveyed women in a local health care system to identify those who didn't use hormone replacement therapy and who also consumed soy foods at least three times a week. The women who agreed to participate in the study were asked to report on the number and severity of their hot flashes and night sweats. Urine tests showed that only 34 percent of the 357 women volunteers produced equol. Among those women, 76 percent who regularly consumed soy reported a less than average number of hot flashes and night sweats. The researchers noted that measuring equol is done only in research centers, but women can get a reliable indication of whether or not soy foods will help quench their hot flashes by adding them to their diets for four to six weeks. If there's no change, you can assume that soy won't be effective for you. The researchers noted that the positive effect of soy for women who do produce equol still has to be studied and confirmed in larger controlled, randomized studies."


Apparently, only 20-30% of Western adults produce S-equol, compared to the 50-60% of Asians for whom soy is a traditional food. This may help to explain the very different responses to soy for Westerners and Easterners. Gut bacteria are also involved. It's also important to note that Asians tend to eat fermented soy, while Westerners dislike the strong smell and taste, so they tend to go for bland unfermented versions. My husband, who eats the stinkiest cheeses and loves trying new cuisines, found that even he could not manage more than a single bite of fermented tofu!

For people who don't produce equol, soy may well be an unwise food choice. In my own experience, my permanent thyroid damage is almost certainly attributable to my heavy reliance on soy during my vegetarian and vegan phases. Like all other legumes, it also catalyzes severe migraines; I wish I'd known that 25 years ago!

[kimberlyf0]

We try to take a moderate approach to soy; after extensive research I decided that traditional soy foods such as tofu, miso, and soy sauce are acceptable to me, along with edamame, but we don't eat any of them frequently. Also, raising vegan teen boys there are times that more processed soy foods are eaten such as a Boca burger at at restaurant, but it is infrequent. We use almond milk instead of soy, and have found some veggie burgers that don't contain soy protein isolate, etc. I hate Daiya cheese, but it is soy free and my boys like to have it occasionally. Field Roast products are also devoid of soy, although they do contain gluten (no longer an issue for my family).

Most soy products such as soy milk or soy "meats" made with isolated soy protein cause me stomach issues, and I take that as a sign that my body doesn't tolerate soy well. Perhaps I don't produce S-equol. Even too much tofu can cause stomach pain, but I'm okay with soy sauce and miso. As for natto, well, I'm afraid to even try it, lol. I'm a super taster through and through.

[kib]

Another issue with soy, for those who believe it's a problem, is that virtually all American soy is genetically modified. I don't have a decisive mind-set about GMOs but I can't help but think that they are neutral at best, and possibly not neutral at all.

[kimberlyf0]

Another issue with soy, for those who believe it's a problem, is that virtually all American soy is genetically modified. I don't have a decisive mind-set about GMOs but I can't help but think that they are neutral at best, and possibly not neutral at all.

I agree with you completely; I don't know if GMOs are safe or not based on hard science, but I am erring on the side of caution. I can buy organic tamari, miso, and tofu, but most of the products made with soy protein aren't organic and are likely GMO.

[Suzanne]

Miso and soy sauce are both fermented, so those are fine for those who tolerate soy well.

[Packy]

You want to hear something really interesting? I much prefer La Choy Soy Sauce over Kikkoman. Kikkoman has a funny taste, I think. Hope that helps you some.

[JaneV2.0]

In case you come over for dinner, will keep that in mind. I usually use GF tamari. Or fish sauce.

[lessisbest]

I have a friend who was a true example of "health" - fitness guru, healthy diet, all the "right" things - until she switched to soy milk and soy products. Within a few months she had symptoms of gall bladder problems. She went from doctor to doctor, had test after test, was suffering a lot of pain, but they all said her gall bladder was fine. My friend (who can't tolerate soy, and I'm sensitive to it) and I both suggested it was the increase in soy in her diet. After 18-months and a lot of pain, she finally convinced a doctor to remove her gall bladder, which ended up being a healthy gall bladder. The pain continued after the surgery. Finally my friend and I convinced her to remove soy from her diet for a month and the problems and pain went away. She never consumed traditional forms of soy, rather all the highly processed soy products which go through all kinds of chemical treatment.

I've shared her story on another message board and several other people reported the same thing about soy, so it wasn't an isolated incident.

Instead of soy sauce, I use Coconut Secret "Raw Coconut Aminos" which is soy free and has 65% less sodium than soy sauce (100% organic, gluten-free, dairy-free, GMO-free.

As far as GMOs go, I recently watched the documentary "GMO OMG" on Netflix (you can also watch it on YouTube) that was a pretty good look at the subject without completely freaking out.

[catherine]

Miso and soy sauce are both fermented, so those are fine for those who tolerate soy well.

Thank God! I make miso soup often.

My ex-vegan DD used to eat a lot of soy but also became concerned about how much she was eating. She didn't complain of any ailments, but she did read up on it and decided to cut way, way back. I think soy products fall into the same category as all the processed foods we are vilifying these days. When I was 100% vegetarian I never ate tofu dogs or soy-based 'chicken fingers.' Geez--if you're vegetarian, own it. The beauty of eating mostly plants is there is such a huge number of ways to prepare plants, legumes and rice/grains in creative and delicious ways.

[kib]

My gut feeling, ha ha, is that once upon a time we were little apes and not very savvy when it came to culinary expertise. The things that kept us alive were those things we could digest in the wild, our bodies evolved with that input. Anything we can't digest without cooking is not essential to our nutritional needs, except perhaps as roughage. Granted we cook a lot of animal proteins because of food borne pathogens or taste preference, but that's not the same as being unable to digest them without cooking.

Most likely our guts have also evolved to properly utilize foods we figured out how to prepare after we were upright and chatting over a grist stone, but I have less trust in them as elementally important. Soy and grains, as well as rice and beans, fall into this category, they are nutritionally useless until cooked. I believe they came to be seen as staples because they're agricultural products - we could control their production and availability, and this led to much greater survival rates due primarily to the increased available calories. So socially, we needed these plant products to increase our numbers, but their elemental nutritional necessity is minimal compared to our "first foods".

Foods we have to cook or otherwise process may or may not be fine for our bodies, but I have come to view any claims of Miracle Food which requires processing (and, ahem, thereby results in profit, the more processing, the more profit) with a skeptical eye, and eat them in small quantities, processed as little as possible to be digestible.

-- sorry if that was a forever rant, just my way of saying soy isn't something our bodies Need, which makes extreme consumption suspect in my eyes.

[kimberlyf0]

I have come to view any claims of Miracle Food which requires processing (and, ahem, thereby results in profit, the more processing, the more profit) with a skeptical eye, and eat them in small quantities, processed as little as possible to be digestible.

Amen! Actually, I am skeptical about all Miracle Foods, as even kale (which isn't more nutritious than spinach or romaine) and quinoa have had their day in the sun as super foods and now we see the "news" stories aka advertisements come out which declare a new super green and super grain/seed.

I think Michael Pollan says it best: Eat food, not too much, mostly plants. The problem with this is that most people I know consider all sorts of processed food stuffs to be food, and they are not. But for us, as we are eating mostly plants all the time I don't worry about super foods. We get variety over the seasons, and even within a week and none of us wants to eat green beans everyday, or broccoli, or squash.

We try to eat seasonally so that we can purchased local produce (we start with our city, then region, then state, then the USA, doing our best to avoid imported produce). To that we add staples such as grains and legumes (others may choose animal products, we gave it a try for a few years but it didn't work for us and we happily went back to a plant based diet), olive oil since we could produce it on our own if we had the trees and press, unrefined sugar in small amounts, etc. I keep some convenience foods on hand, such as canned beans, so that we can make the choice to eat at home even if time is short.

[kib]

I am skeptical about all Miracle Foods, as even kale (which isn't more nutritious than spinach or romaine) and quinoa have had their day in the sun as super foods and now we see the "news" stories aka advertisements come out which declare a new super green and super grain/seed.

Agreed. It's disappointing to see the emperor's naked bottom, but it's true, personally I've been led through one too many superlative food claims to pay much attention. Almonds are The Best Nut! Yeah, they have about 2% more protein than the next best competitor. Whoopdie doodie.

My personal opinion is that Pollan's 'mostly plants' is more of an ethical / environmental caveat than a nutritional one, but if the plant-based shoe fits, Eat it! :~)

[awakenedsoul]

I don't eat any soy foods, but I do drink a cup and a half of soy milk each day. I am 50, and haven't had any hot flashes or night sweats. I feel better when I drink soy milk. I have cut way back on my use of regular milk. If I don't have the soy milk, my body starts to heat up and acts like a hot flash is coming.

Everyone's body chemistry is so different. I eat a lot of organic fruits and vegetables. I have some grass fed meat and free range chicken. I enjoy grains and breads, too. I've been in excellent health my whole life. It seems like diet is a very personal thing.

[frugal-one]

You want to hear something really interesting? I much prefer La Choy Soy Sauce over Kikkoman. Kikkoman has a funny taste, I think. Hope that helps you some.

Not interesting... another annoying post by you!

[Suzanne]

I don't eat any soy foods, but I do drink a cup and a half of soy milk each day. I am 50, and haven't had any hot flashes or night sweats. I feel better when I drink soy milk. I have cut way back on my use of regular milk. If I don't have the soy milk, my body starts to heat up and acts like a hot flash is coming.

Everyone's body chemistry is so different. I eat a lot of organic fruits and vegetables. I have some grass fed meat and free range chicken. I enjoy grains and breads, too. I've been in excellent health my whole life. It seems like diet is a very personal thing.

I couldn't agree more! The individual's health is dependent on what s/he can digest and beneficially metabolize - and that depends on individual genomes, the epigenetic tweaking that happens in the womb, and the microbes that colonize the gut shortly after birth. The microbe colonization may also depend on the genome. Success on any particular dietary pattern has nothing to do with superior ethics, willpower, or moral position.

[iris lilies]

In case you come over for dinner, will keep that in mind. I usually use GF tamari. Or fish sauce.

Fish sauce is SOOOOOOO smelly! I usually keep it around here in the 'fridge, but I would prefer small bottle and am not sure I can find one. While incredibly stinky, it is softer tasting than soy sauce, more rich and complex.

[iris lilies]

Amen! Actually, I am skeptical about all Miracle Foods, as even kale (which isn't more nutritious than spinach or romaine) and quinoa have had their day in the sun as super foods and now we see the "news" stories aka advertisements come out which declare a new super green and super grain/seed.

I think Michael Pollan says it best: Eat food, not too much, mostly plants. The problem with this is that most people I know consider all sorts of processed food stuffs to be food, and they are not. But for us, as we are eating mostly plants all the time I don't worry about super foods. We get variety over the seasons, and even within a week and none of us wants to eat green beans everyday, or broccoli, or squash.

We try to eat seasonally so that we can purchased local produce (we start with our city, then region, then state, then the USA, doing our best to avoid imported produce). To that we add staples such as grains and legumes (others may choose animal products, we gave it a try for a few years but it didn't work for us and we happily went back to a plant based diet), olive oil since we could produce it on our own if we had the trees and press, unrefined sugar in small amounts, etc. I keep some convenience foods on hand, such as canned beans, so that we can make the choice to eat at home even if time is short.

This is so sensible. Agreed.

[iris lilies]

I don't eat any soy foods, but I do drink a cup and a half of soy milk each day. I am 50, and haven't had any hot flashes or night sweats. I feel better when I drink soy milk. I have cut way back on my use of regular milk. If I don't have the soy milk, my body starts to heat up and acts like a hot flash is coming.

Everyone's body chemistry is so different. I eat a lot of organic fruits and vegetables. I have some grass fed meat and free range chicken. I enjoy grains and breads, too. I've been in excellent health my whole life. It seems like diet is a very personal thing.

I don't eat soy specifically and seldom get it through regular foods. I never had night sweats. I had very occasional hot flashes that were actually fun. It was kind of like a drug high.

I always say that my farmer father in law would die laughing if he knew how much soy beans (edamame--ok, a special kind of soy beans) went for per pound. While already a millionaire today due to high farm land prices, he would be a super millionaire if all of the beans he grew went for that price.

[kimberlyf0]

I don't worry about arsenic in rice or a little pesticide on my berries. I ingest far more toxins from tailpipes while walking and biking around town -- activities I enjoy immensely despite the hazards.

There is some research out there showing that some of the so-called anti-nutrients in foods help keep us healthy by acting as antioxidants. I wonder if rice has always had arsenic in it and this is a newer scare; it appears that the Japanese take in 20 times the amount of arsenic than North Americans do and live longer and with less disease. I've read that arsenic is in many foods and rice is simply being singled out. Most of all, I've read that these risks are overstated and that consuming a healthy diet helps protect against arsenic risks.

If I have to choose between conventionally grown lettuce from my own town or organic lettuce from Mexico I will choose conventional. For me it isn't only about pesticides in my body, but also the human rights abuses among the migrant workers harvesting in Mexico. I also think that it is better to eat conventional berries than not eat berries at all; we choose organic when we can but also buy conventional (because those are local). Overall my biggest concern about the information about regarding arsenic in rice, the risk of pesticides, etc. is that people get scared and eat more packaged foods. I'm always going to be of the option that a conventional apple is healthier than an organic apple breakfast bar, and a conventional banana healthier than organic fruit snack gummies.

I'll admit that awhile back we were dealing with health issues and I chased after a few dietary options to try to help us; gluten free, paleo, Perfect Health Diet, etc. Gluten free did reverse my son's symptoms, but now he eats gluten and seems fine. Having been part of that and seen the explosion I do think it is a huge fad, and I hate the pseudoscience in the books. I remember being so afraid of phytic acid, etc. He was so sick that we are meat for the first time in almost two decades, and continued with it for about five years. Even eating grassfed/pastured animal products we saw cholesterol and blood pressure numbers creep up, and then my food allergies asserted themselves (some dairy allergic people cross reaction to red meat proteins and I am one of them, and I already had a poultry allergy). Now that we are vegan again all of the numbers are good, we sleep better, we have more energy, etc. so for us it is a better choice (and I do believe that a person who feels uncomfortable with the idea of eating animals based on ethics can cause health issues by going against what they believe deep inside).

I came to realize that everyone is trying to manipulate what we eat, even the health food lobbies, and I decided to get off the treadmill. We eat grains, including wheat, and I don't worry if I don't soak the grains (I only soak grains if I am using the rice cooker with a timer, so it isn't intentional). I use baker's yeast and don't let myself worry that we aren't using wild yeasts and 48+ hour ferments. I eat cabbage raw sometimes and don't worry about goitrogens. We eat soy sauce, miso, and tofu.

For my family the best thing to do is to eat real food, starting with fresh produce, dried grains and legumes, olive oil, etc. I try not to use much packaged food at all (but do keep canned beans on hand for quick meals since that helps keep us away from restaurants). I bake most of our bread (but I don't stress if I need to buy a simple loaf). We drink water and herbal teas.

[Tussiemussies]

I think soy is very good for women who are in menopause. Soy imitates estrogen, that is why it is not good for others to eat. But at menopause you can use some of that. Organic soy only, since it is now grown GMO....

[KayLR]

You want to hear something really interesting? I much prefer La Choy Soy Sauce over Kikkoman. Kikkoman has a funny taste, I think. Hope that helps you some.

Packy, you almost made me snort my coffee! LOL!!!

[awakenedsoul]

I think soy is very good for women who are in menopause. Soy imitates estrogen, that is why it is not good for others to eat. But at menopause you can use some of that. Organic soy only, since it is now grown GMO....

That's what I get, at Costco. I also feel better with the plant estrogens I get from eating daily salads. When I was lazy about making them I noticed a big difference.