View Full Version : And here we go again...
http://www.kmov.com/news/local/4-arrested-2-officers-injured-following-officer-involved-shooting-in-Berkeley-286766851.html
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/berkeley-officer-fatally-shoots-teenager-at-gas-station/article_d45db16a-7422-5307-b81d-b45dbdc896ba.html
https://news.yahoo.com/violent-crowd-sets-off-explosives--throws-bricks-after-police-shoots-and-kills-18-year-old-in-missouri-153730065.html
Several miles from Ferguson, a white cop is questioning several black youths for a theft at a convenience store, when one of the youths pulls a gun and points it at the officer. Cop fires three times, and youth who pulled gun is hit and killed. Youth's gun didn't fire, but IMO, all bets are off when you pull a gun on a cop. The youth's pistol also had the serial number somehow filed off or otherwise obstructed (law abiding folk don't have guns with the serial numbers filed off)
There is surveillance camera footage.
The predictable events occur - some looting, brick throwing at cops, fireworks/explosives set off at cops by "protestors," etc.
I will say that in Chicago, it's not that uncommon an occurrence for a black youth to pull a gun on a cop and get shot/killed. No riots here.
Racial makeup of this PD is different. Among the department's 31 officers, the mayor said, 17 or 18 are African-American. About 75 percent of the command staff are black, in addition to the mayor, police chief and other city officials, Hoskins added.
Youth who pulled gun on cop had a criminal record involving armed robbery and assault charges. Cop was a 6 year veteran of PD, and had been involved in one previous incident where there was a struggle for his firearm.
Comments from the deceased family members fit the usual "my baby dindu nuffin'" script.
Antonio Martin's extended family was in shock early Wednesday, as they waited for details to unfold about the fatal shooting.
"This doesn't make any sense for them to kill my son like this," Toni Martin-Green said early Wednesday from her home near the University of Missouri-St. Louis campus. "I am trying to be calm."
Martin was the oldest of four children born to her and Jerome Green.
"He's like any other kid who had dreams or hopes," said Green. "We loved being around him. He'd push a smile out of you."
Green described his son as a "follower" who took medication for being hyperactive.
"It was hard for him to focus," Green said.
"He was not a violent person, to our knowledge," he added. "Around us there weren't any pistols. It's hard to believe that."
His grandmother, Margret Chandler, was also in disbelief.
"When he was around me, he knew to do right," she said. "Why would he pull out a gun against the police? That's the thing I don't get. It just doesn't add up."
He was not a "violent person"? Sheesh. Wonder how the CNN and such will spin this one in the next few days. It will certainly give them something to focus on during the usually slow Christmas news period. I wonder if Al Sharpton will get involved with this one.
http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/news/local/reports-jacksonville-fire-station-shot-firefighter/njZTn/
gimmethesimplelife
12-24-14, 2:25pm
http://www.kmov.com/news/local/4-arrested-2-officers-injured-following-officer-involved-shooting-in-Berkeley-286766851.html
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/berkeley-officer-fatally-shoots-teenager-at-gas-station/article_d45db16a-7422-5307-b81d-b45dbdc896ba.html
https://news.yahoo.com/violent-crowd-sets-off-explosives--throws-bricks-after-police-shoots-and-kills-18-year-old-in-missouri-153730065.html
Several miles from Ferguson, a white cop is questioning several black youths for a theft at a convenience store, when one of the youths pulls a gun and points it at the officer. Cop fires three times, and youth who pulled gun is hit and killed. Youth's gun didn't fire, but IMO, all bets are off when you pull a gun on a cop. The youth's pistol also had the serial number somehow filed off or otherwise obstructed (law abiding folk don't have guns with the serial numbers filed off)
There is surveillance camera footage.
The predictable events occur - some looting, brick throwing at cops, fireworks/explosives set off at cops by "protestors," etc.
I will say that in Chicago, it's not that uncommon an occurrence for a black youth to pull a gun on a cop and get shot/killed. No riots here.
Racial makeup of this PD is different. Among the department's 31 officers, the mayor said, 17 or 18 are African-American. About 75 percent of the command staff are black, in addition to the mayor, police chief and other city officials, Hoskins added.
Youth who pulled gun on cop had a criminal record involving armed robbery and assault charges. Cop was a 6 year veteran of PD, and had been involved in one previous incident where there was a struggle for his firearm.
Comments from the deceased family members fit the usual "my baby dindu nuffin'" script.
Antonio Martin's extended family was in shock early Wednesday, as they waited for details to unfold about the fatal shooting.
"This doesn't make any sense for them to kill my son like this," Toni Martin-Green said early Wednesday from her home near the University of Missouri-St. Louis campus. "I am trying to be calm."
Martin was the oldest of four children born to her and Jerome Green.
"He's like any other kid who had dreams or hopes," said Green. "We loved being around him. He'd push a smile out of you."
Green described his son as a "follower" who took medication for being hyperactive.
"It was hard for him to focus," Green said.
"He was not a violent person, to our knowledge," he added. "Around us there weren't any pistols. It's hard to believe that."
His grandmother, Margret Chandler, was also in disbelief.
"When he was around me, he knew to do right," she said. "Why would he pull out a gun against the police? That's the thing I don't get. It just doesn't add up."
He was not a "violent person"? Sheesh. Wonder how the CNN and such will spin this one in the next few days. It will certainly give them something to focus on during the usually slow Christmas news period. I wonder if Al Sharpton will get involved with this one.Tradd - please don't be shocked but in this case I agree with you. I honestly do. You say that if you pull a gun on a cop all bets are off and on this I agree. If you notice in all my anti-cop posts I have never once mentioned that anyone in my neighborhood or my neighbors or myself ever pulled weapons on a cop - though I have went on about having a smartphone on you at all times with video capabilities as insurance against the police. I totally agree it is not cool or right to pull weapons on a cop. That to me is crossing a line and I don't blame the cops for shooting this time. Should anyone pull a gun on me I would think that my life is in danger, too, so I can't blame this officer for shooting in self defense and this incident I don't personally consider murder nor do I believe this officer was out of line.
Furthermore, I would not join a protest in this instance. All my posts that are anti-police have centered around cops hassling and sometimes killing unarmed people who did not pull weapons on the police. Unfortunately there are those police who live to power trip and do murder people for no real reason and the system is set up so that they get away with it. This I cannot forgive nor ever forget and it is blood on America's hands. Instead of bailing out banks I believe the government should bail out victims of police brutality with large settlements so that such people would be able to buy their way into another country legally and start over elsewhere.
All the above said, this is not one of those instances and I SIDE WITH THE POLICE ON THIS ONE. Please don't anyone be too suprised. Rob
Rob, I'm not not surprised you agree on this one. However, I am fully expecting a large part of the rabble rousers to totally ignore the facts (just as they did with the "hands up, don't shoot" thing with Ferguson that turned out to be false), and continue their agitation.
http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/news/local/reports-jacksonville-fire-station-shot-firefighter/njZTn/
Only really stupid people target firefighters and paramedics.
You say that if you pull a gun on a cop all bets are off and on this I agree.
What if you fight with a cop for his gun? Or fight with a cop at all?
I knew a few police officers in Lakewood WA who were quietly sitting in a coffee shop a couple years ago, when an upstanding local community member walked in and killed 4 of them. About a dozen other community members helped hide the killer and tried to get him out of town. The only protest I remember was the funeral parade for the officers, and some extra training sessions down at the SPAA facility...
Rob - you are about to get the society you want. You and your neighbors can do your own community policing, your own community firefighting, your own community emergency medical services. Nobody else is going to be willing to show up.
Only really stupid people target firefighters and paramedics.
Happens more than you'd like to know. Some of the assailants aren't stupid - they're just evil, and set up ambushes to take out first responders.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/24/us/new-york-firefighters-shooting/
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/56846046
The woman screaming is like nails on a chalkboard.
Teacher Terry
12-24-14, 2:36pm
Of course pulling a gun on a cop will get you killed. That is sad about the 4 officers & I wonder why anyone would try to hide them so they could escape.
The derp on this one is astounding.
http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx353/theodorae2003/B5oztICIEAE4HuG.jpg (http://s771.photobucket.com/user/theodorae2003/media/B5oztICIEAE4HuG.jpg.html)
ApatheticNoMore
12-24-14, 2:38pm
And what if you don't have a gun but a small 3-4 inch knife, and what if you don't pull it on a cop at all, but are pointing it at people in a clear case of mental illness, because your are a mentally ill homeless person. Are cops justified in shooting you on site with up to 10 bullets and killing you. Happened a few weeks ago. This society doesn't have a @#$# clue how to deal with mental illness (I have little doubt this was of the poorly in touch with reality sort) and de-escalate it.
And what if you don't have a gun but a small 3-4 inch knife,
You say "small 3-4 inch knife" like it's a spork. It's not. A 3-4" knife is a tremendously effective killing tool. People with training understand this. We used to lose officers all the time because they didn't understand the threat a person with a knife presented to them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
This society doesn't have a @#$# clue how to deal with mental illness...
I agree there. Don't lay the blame on the officer on the street, at the point in time where the situation has escalated to the point where lethal weapons are involved. The failing occurred much earlier in the process.
On edit:
Edged weapons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PWmRWjDhYw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwCl9bfz-8Y
Teacher Terry
12-24-14, 2:46pm
Ever since we thought it was a good idea to save $ & empty the mental hospitals we have had so many MI people with no treatment. No I do not think the cop should have killed the guy with the knife. You can shoot someone in the leg & then disarm them.
In the case of threatening people with a knife, it depends on how close the knife wielder is to people and the context. The Tueller Drill is very applicable to this very case. Just because someone has a knife doesn't mean they're harmless. http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/videos/duel-dilemmas/
From the Wikipedia article about the Mythbusters show, At 20 feet the gun wielder was able to shoot the charging knife attacker just as he reached the shooter. At shorter distances the knife wielder was always able to stab prior to being shot.
I've taken part in the Tueller Drill as part of several firearms self-defense classes I've taken. A normal able bodied person can close the distance of 21 feet in about 2 seconds. Even someone with some physical limitations will take just a second or so longer. I've got a bad knee and still did it at a very fast walk in 3.5 seconds. A young healthy male coming at me covered the 21 feet distance in two seconds. We did this with Airsoft guns, so we were able to shoot at each other (with proper protective equipment). I was just able to draw and get two shots off when the "attacker" reached me with his big hard rubber knife (you can't draw this fast without some practice).
You can shoot someone in the leg & then disarm them.
That's not how guns work.
First of all, shooting someone precisely in a small target area is quite difficult, especially if the target is moving and you are under stress.
Second of all, leg wounds can easily be lethal - look at the arteries and other goodies in there. I clip your femoral artery, and you are going to bleed out before the paramedics get there unless I happen to know how to slap a quality tourniquet on you, and happen to have one on me, rigged to apply rapidly.
Thirdly, handguns are not particularly good at stopping people, which is why we train to use multiple rounds until the attacker stops.
Firearms aren't stun guns, they don't work like the movies show.
Ever since we thought it was a good idea to save $ & empty the mental hospitals we have had so many MI people with no treatment. No I do not think the cop should have killed the guy with the knife. You can shoot someone in the leg & then disarm them.
Have you ever tried this yourself? Do you have any idea how difficult it is? Police have a "hit rate" of about 17% from the figures I've read.
http://bearingarms.com/professionals-dont-shoot-wound/
iris lilies
12-24-14, 4:34pm
and
Merry Christmas from St. Louis!
Oh yeah, we also had a black kid shoot a cop last week, just walked up to his car and shot him, but that didn't make the news and that's fine with me. I'd prefer to keep the media idiots out of town.
iris lilies
12-24-14, 4:37pm
Rob, I'm not not surprised you agree on this one. However, I am fully expecting a large part of the rabble rousers to totally ignore the facts (just as they did with the "hands up, don't shoot" thing with Ferguson that turned out to be false), and continue their agitation.
Tradd,
Vonderett Myers, the black kid who was shot and killed by a cop here near my house me a few weeks after the Michael Brown incident, was described by his family as holding a "sandwich." Not a gun. He didn't even own a gun they said, despite his own photos showing off a handgun. The same gun found at the scene.
Sigh. Facts don't matter, it's how you feel that counts, and if you even for a moment think "but wait! Vonderett Myers shot at a cop and he was out on bail tethered with an ankle bracelet" then you would be guilty of WrongThink and MSNBC will set you straight with this article:
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/why-vonderrit-myers-matters
Tradd, the black kid who was shot and killed by a cop here nearby me a few weeks after the Michael Brown incident was described by his family as holding a "sandwich." Not a gun.
Sigh.
Are you sure it wasn't a sandwich he'd bitten into the shape of a gun?
ETA: I did hear about the cop who was shot.
Yossarian
12-24-14, 5:07pm
MSNBC will set you straight with this article
That was depressing. It's no wonder the cycle continues when people are that out of touch with reality.
That's not how guns work.
First of all, shooting someone precisely in a small target area is quite difficult, especially if the target is moving and you are under stress.
Second of all, leg wounds can easily be lethal - look at the arteries and other goodies in there. I clip your femoral artery, and you are going to bleed out before the paramedics get there unless I happen to know how to slap a quality tourniquet on you, and happen to have one on me, rigged to apply rapidly.
Thirdly, handguns are not particularly good at stopping people, which is why we train to use multiple rounds until the attacker stops.
Firearms aren't stun guns, they don't work like the movies show.
I think I heard with this incident only 3 shots fired and not all connected with the target. Not excessive at all.
Quick Review Of What I've Been Saying: The pot-stirring Media is not liberal, it is there to cover events, as they happen, with paid advertising. Since there is considerable overlap between the News Media and Entertainment Media, they have found that sometimes they have a need to help to produce these events that they cover. Everyone is watching coverage & talking about these events, everyone has an opinion. Mission Accomplished. I would guess though, that the pro-protest movement(to put it nicely)and it's sympathizers are really a vocal minority, truth be known. Visualize a westboro church with say, 2 million members, instead of 2 dozen. See? Some of the sympathizers are just vocal & sympathetic, and that is all. Come down to it, they will put up and shut up. The Majority opinion is of course--supportive of the police, know that they are essential, see what they are up against: namely, thugs. The unfortunate thing is that the outrageous conduct by groups or individuals on behalf of the "pro-protest movement" is just going to cause a backlash. Though Politicians will go through the motions of trying to smooth things over, the underlying action that will be much greater in scope will be to increase the levels of security. That is because it is what the majority of citizens want. So, it will be more police, with more hardware, more jails, more courts, more prisons. That way, people who are prone to violence due to mental defect or whatever, can be kept out of society. Ramping up the power of our government at the domestic level, just to keep the peace. I am not saying I advocate this course of action--I'm simply speculating that that is what will happen. Again, if the Media was not so self-serving in making a show out of each and every incident to increase viewer- and readership, and focus on a wider range of more important matters, the rate of these incidents would settle down to a normal level, maybe even fewer. Hope that helps you some. Later.
gimmethesimplelife
12-28-14, 4:20am
The derp on this one is astounding.
http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx353/theodorae2003/B5oztICIEAE4HuG.jpg (http://s771.photobucket.com/user/theodorae2003/media/B5oztICIEAE4HuG.jpg.html)As anti-cop as I am, I have to say this is - at a minumum - some pretty twisted thinking. I'm no great fan of the police in general as you'all know by now, that doesn't need to be revisited as this point....that having been said, how would this person feel is a gun was pointed at them? What would be going through their mind - ummm....I'm thinking self preservation might be far up on this list?
Just wanted to check in and say I don't agree with this thinking either.....to me it's extreme as is some of the police behavior that is being brought to light since Ferguson. I don't know that in present day America the way things are set up now that there can be much of a solution, but I do believe this kind of thinking is not helping. As anti-cop as I am, I do believe that cops have the right to self defense if a weapon is pulled on them - and not some plastic toy weapon but the real thing. Confronted with a gun pointed at them, I think most people are going to fear for their lives and think in terms of self preservation/survival. Rob
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