THE ORGANIC HYPE (OR NOT)

[Polliwog]

I have been confused about organic foods since it was introduced to the mainstream. Sometimes I buy organic, and then when I'm trying to watch what I spend I buy cheap. I think it is still difficult to tell when one is getting real certified organic, e.g., Trader Joe's has cans of vegetables, beans, etc that say organic. It seems to me any distributor or food producer can put "organic" on anything. What does that mean?

Anyway, I bring this up because I recently was at a dinner party in my neighborhood and one of the guests is a microbiologist and immunologist. I asked her if she and her husband bought organic fruits and vegetables. She said no because she believes the whole organic discussion is hyped and false in many cases. In another instance, my son recently told me that when he had a complete physical at Scripps, upon asking the Dr. about organic foods, the Dr. said "if it makes you feel better go ahead and eat organic; but the evidence that it helps and makes a difference is very slim." (I've used quotes, but really I'm paraphrasing).

I'm also very confused regarding expirations dates on everything.

Do any of you have strong feelings either way regarding organic vs. non-organic?

Linda

[ApatheticNoMore]

Yes I try to buy organic whenever I can. Even if it's not better for one's health it's definitely better for the environment. Less polluting the soil and the water, less driving bees and butterflys to extinction - bees are dying off and things like the monarch butterfly are on the endangered species list now, and both of these are likely connected to pesticide use. The farmworkers get exposed to it and there are "cancer clusters" where there is agribusiness. Farmworkers are afterall probably exposed to many multiples of the average consumer exposure.

If produce is being imported, as much of it is, even pesticides that are banned in the U.S. get sprayed on food and imported back into the U.S.. I try to avoid imported produce anyway, and generally prefer even local conventional produce over it, but I will take organic imported produce over non-organic imported produce if that's the only choice. Then there are genetically modified organisms (GMOs), organic standards prohibit GMOs. GMOs are banned in many countries altogether, but widely prevalent in the U.S.. Maybe these guinea pigs turn out fine, but that's what we are.


In another instance, my son recently told me that when he had a complete physical at Scripps, upon asking the Dr. about organic foods, the Dr. said "if it makes you feel better go ahead and eat organic; but the evidence that it helps and makes a difference is very slim." (I've used quotes, but really I'm paraphrasing).

Probably the same thing as many of the medicines the doctor prescribes then! Well many are proved to barely work better than a placebo (if it makes you feel better indeed). Logically if farming practices are better, taking better care of the land etc., the food should be healthier, but I don't know if big organic companies practices are always that much better.

I tend to regard it as one of the better uses of my money rather than a waste of money.

[iris lilies]

Here are my general thoughts:

* We grow a ton of things here at home (not always organically) and so we consume a fair amount of vegetative foods that are not treated with pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, etc. But like I said, DH does treat some of them (apples, for instance.)

* We don't buy organic. I am vaguely aware of the "dirtiest" crops, but don't make an effort to avoid them. Strawberries, for instance: DH grows them, but they are often boggy and there is not many of them. I won't go without strawberries in May, sorry!

* If I were feeding small children, I would likely have a less relaxed approach to organic, or would at least read up on it. I think DH and I, having grown up eating food with far less chemical interventions, were luckier than kids today.

* I think so many people mash up "organic/heirloom/locally grown/good tasting" that it's difficult to have a conversation with them about this stuff. "Mmmmmm, organic vegetables!" some will say when they see our garden, yet absence or presence of chemicals treatments doesn't address taste. I defy anyone to choose DH's soapy-tasting organic carrots after comparing them to non-organic sweet carrots from the grocery store. :D Like your dinner party friends, I too believe the whole thing has too much hype and non-science to be meaningful in many situations and for many people.

OP, "Certified Organic" indeed has real meaning and the hardworking farmers who go after that Certification have to meet rigorous standards. Just the term "organic" doesn't have meaning, you are right.

I cannot figure out why vegetables in England and Switzerland taste better that those here, comparing them to things coming out of my own garden for god's sake. WHY IS THAT!!!!???? It makes me crazy.

[iris lilies]

About "expirations:"

You have to use common sense. For canned goods, it's no problem to consume them well past the expiration date.

For fresh items, I think those expiration dates are pretty close to real. For milk we use the taste test. For meats we use safe practices, immediately freezing things we buy. Keeping them frozen for years is not a problem for us, as long as we are sure that the freezer remains on.

[Packy]

Yes, I think the whole organic thing has been taken to a new level by Marketing Types. That said, I think it actually is an agribusiness term that euphemistically refers to making an attempt to level the economic playing field a bit for producers. It is because of the disparity in allowable techniques to increase farm commodity production, at the expense of not just consumer safety, but producer competitiveness. If farm producer in Jurisdiction "A" can use certain herbicides and chemical fertilizers and other techniques to increase crop yields because his government does not disallow them, then that producer may have a competitive advantage over producers(usually domestic)in jurisdiction "B" that must adhere to stricter standards. But now, they can charge more for "Organic", to compensate, because we've been TV-educated that it is really good for you. Conversely, it might be a selling point for imported canned vegetables, to assure us that it has not been subjected to any process you would not find in the good ol' USA. See? Probably though, the average gardener will go so far as to use some things on his/her precious tomaters, etc. that might be biohazards, if consumed regularly in significant quantities. You kids really ought to be more concerned about IrisLilies, who might be unwittingly ingesting traces of lead from projectiles that went astray, and imbedded in the soil and were absorbed by garden plants. Not only from the Thug Wars, but because her DH,(Elmer) is ever on the lookout, attempting to deter those scwewy wabbits fwum steewing his cawwots. See? That also may be why her home gwown tastes funny, (maybe a metallic taste?) compared to the garden produce elsewhere. Hope that helps you some.

[catherine]

Even if it's not better for one's health it's definitely better for the environment.

^This.

That would be my main motivation. At 62, I probably already have plenty of chemicals swirling around in there.


If I were feeding small children, I would likely have a less relaxed approach to organic, or would at least read up on it.

^This, too.


OP, "Certified Organic" indeed has real meaning and the hardworking farmers who go after that Certification have to meet rigorous standards. Just the term "organic" doesn't have meaning, you are right.

^And this.

So, growing your own food definitely gives you the greatest confidence in whether or not a product is organic and herbicide/pesticide-free, obviously.

My "second cut" vegetables are those raised at local farms that are certified organic, or at least those who might not be certified but I know them well enough to be reliably certain they are growing produce responsibly. An example of that is an awesome cooperative that just started two years ago right near me. They are committed to bio-intensive practices and organic farming. They actually tilled their land by hand last year because they couldn't afford a tractor. They're such cool kids.

Whatever produce is left over on my shopping list I buy on sale at Stop and Shop and don't care whether it says organic or not because of the whole marketing thing. At that point, I just want to save the money, because I'm skeptical of any benefit.

[pinkytoe]

I am not a die-hard organic produce consumer but do tend to buy certain items like things I will eat raw when available and reasonably priced. I am now more apt to look at where it's grown and if it is in season in my region. Right now, lots of citrus, pomegranates, persimmons, greens, cabbage. Strawberries in December - NO. A lot of the produce here comes from Mexico and of that I am more suspect. Our area Natural Grocers (Vitamin Cottage) has started carrying organic produce from a local farm and it is gorgeous and reasonably priced - parsley, collards, kales, chards, lettuces - all under $2 each. I was struck by a comment once by Joel Fuhrman (Eat to Live) saying that he would rather we eat more produce period, organic or not.

[awakenedsoul]

Like pinkytoe, I avoid food grown in Mexico, too. Sometimes I have to buy bell peppers that are grown there. I wash non organic produce in baking soda and water. I am lucky to live in CA, so I can grow a lot of my own fruit. It's expensive to buy in the stores, so growing my own helps me to cut costs on groceries. We have so much sun all year. The drought is our main challenge right now.

I try to buy organic, but it is more expensive. When I had cc debt, I didn't buy organic. I put that money towards my bills. Watching Food, Inc. really changed how I ate. I didn't realize how bad the conditions were for many of the chickens and animals in order to provide cheap food. I have my own chicken now and she free ranges every day. I buy meat and poultry from local farmers. I make more bone broths, since grass fed meat is pricey.

As far as expiration dates, I do what irislilies does. I will save sour milk for homemade buttermilk cheese biscuits. I freeze eggs so that they don't go bad. I have used canned goods past the expiration date with no problem. I try to stay on top of my food and eat things up within a few days. I hate to waste it.

[iris lilies]

Yes, I think the whole organic thing has been taken to a new level by Marketing Types. That said, I think it actually is an agribusiness term that euphemistically refers to making an attempt to level the economic playing field a bit for producers. It is because of the disparity in allowable techniques to increase farm commodity production, at the expense of not just consumer safety, but producer competitiveness. If farm producer in Jurisdiction "A" can use certain herbicides and chemical fertilizers and other techniques to increase crop yields because his government does not disallow them, then that producer may have a competitive advantage over producers(usually domestic)in jurisdiction "B" that must adhere to stricter standards. But now, they can charge more for "Organic", to compensate, because we've been TV-educated that it is really good for you. Conversely, it might be a selling point for imported canned vegetables, to assure us that it has not been subjected to any process you would not find in the good ol' USA. See? Probably though, the average gardener will go so far as to use some things on his/her precious tomaters, etc. that might be biohazards, if consumed regularly in significant quantities. You kids really ought to be more concerned about IrisLilies, who might be unwittingly ingesting traces of lead from projectiles that went astray, and imbedded in the soil and were absorbed by garden plants, simply because her DH,(Elmer) is ever on the lookout, attempting to deter those scwewy wabbits fwum steewing his cawwots. See? That also may be why her home gwown tastes funny, (maybe a metallic taste?) compared to the garden produce elsewhere. Hope that helps you some.

I'll repeat from my previous post:

...too much hype and non-science to be meaningful in many situations and for many people.

[Packy]

Yeah but, them stray bullets flying around the 'hood--they contaminate the soil with lead and stuff. Could be why your cawwots and the lockered wabbits you eat have a peculiar flavor. Get it checked by a REAL certified agronomist.

[kimberlyf0]

We buy certified organic whenever possible, if that produce was grown in the USA and looks fresh and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Right now I can't find much certified organic lettuce or tomatoes grown in the USA, so I default to local, as in within a 5 mile radius. Organic or not, I do not want to eat produce that creates slavery in other countries, such as Mexico. We make a few exceptions, or rather, DH and my boys make exceptions; frozen mango for smoothies and commercial salsa made in Mexico come to mind. But for me personally, I will sacrifice. I love avocado on a burrito, but the local taco place is certainly getting their avocados from Mexico, so I go without. It's rather crazy that they buy Mexican avocados anyway when right now the local growers have beautiful Zutano avocados for sale. Our salads don't currently have cucumber in them because I can only find cucumbers grown in Mexico. I don't have to choose between starving and buying produce from Mexico so we adjust our menus to use the ingredients that we can get domestically and locally.

For some fruit, I would rather buy local (ie. citrus over certified organic citrus). The same grower that sells the citrus also sell unsprayed strawberries and melons, etc. in spring and summer. When they are on sale for 99¢ per pound I will buy non-organic CA grapes grown within a several hour drive vs. organic grapes from far away. I am feeding teens, and they can easily consume a pound of grapes daily per person. Heck, most days my teens eat 8 - 12 servings of fresh fruit daily (in addition to the frozen fruit in smoothies). Not only would I go broke if it was all organic, but it wouldn't be as fresh and nutritious.

I don't care about the hype. I don't think science can tell us for certain was synthetic pesticides and fertilizers are doing to our bodies, but I also think our bodies are pretty resilient. I ere on the side of caution and buy organic, but my main motivation is the environment and the real human costs of using these pesticides, fungicides, etc. Maybe a little pesticide residue on lettuce is never going to hurt me, but I do worry about what it might do to the migrant workers who are around it constantly, and to those whose water supply is affected by it. I also think that the bee issue is real and significant.

All that said, I do think that eating conventional produce is better than not eating produce at all, and I would (and did) choose conventional if I was in the process of paying off debt and achieving some measure of financial peace.

[Packy]

Well, what about Pizza? Do you kids ever have organic pizza, extra-extra large,with pepperoni, Italian sausage, Canadian bacon, And piled HIGH with Oooey-Gooey Mozzzarellla Cheese, that are ALL certified Organic, gluten-free, no BGH? Sounds a lot healthier, does it not? From what the "Help Wanted" ads say, Pizza Delivery Drivers can make darn good money, so it certainly sounds like there is no exploitation involved, either. Just Curious.

[creaker]

Like everything, it's more complicated than just yes or no.

http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/ALB00035/The-Dirty-Dozen-Foods-You-Should-Always-Buy-Organic.html

You have to pick your battles - some foods are much better to buy organic, for some you get much less bang for the buck. And you have to toss in the arguments of local vs. not/US vs. imported, etc.

Organic is still a certified designation, although some have been fighting hard to weaken it so they could paste "organic" on everything.

For expiration dates - I've sorted discarded items at the food banks. For canned/boxed much of what we sort can be up to 6 months past code date - main exceptions being mayo and salad dressings. Not that they are not safe, but quality and taste can go south after code date.

[SteveinMN]

creaker pretty well hits the mark for me.

For us, "organic" ties primarily into sustainability. Using less-invasive chemicals or alternate growing methods to control the bad stuff is just more sustainable over time -- especially for some crops which seem especially susceptible to accumulating residue. Creating agricultural businesses with enough of a margin to not have to depend on undocumented workers to make them financially viable is sustainable. Raising animals which are not accentuated freakishly to accommodate market preferences is sustainable. While it is possible to buy organic produce shipped from halfway around the world and organic junk food (cookies, pop), most organic producers I know are not growing with unsustainable planting practices or animals penned into unnatural settings and most of them believe in the sustainability of their business, too.

There is some abuse of the "organic" label. If it's labeled "organic", it should say what organization certified the product. IME the USDA organic designation is the one most prone to legislative tampering; other certifications (like Oregon Tilth) are more resistant to the money.

I don't know necessarily that organic is more healthful for humans than not. Some flabby-looking organic carrots from 1200 miles away may avoid some pesticides/herbicides conventional carrots might carry, but probably lack the nutrients fresher carrots would offer. Organisms like e. coli do not discriminate between organic and conventional crops. I prefer to buy free-range chickens which are not treated with antibiotics, partially because I see what constant exposure to antibiotics is doing to us and partially because they taste far better than "factory" chickens. So there's always more than one variable in the equation.

Expiration dates? Another question for which there is no set answer. Eggs will keep far longer than the expiration date on the carton. Milk, for us, does not, since it's opened and is not finished before the date arrives. Crackers with lots of shortening (e.g., Ritz) will go rancid faster than water crackers. The produce I buy at ALDI typically does not last as long as what I buy at the coop; I think it has to do partially with the length of the supply chain and partially because ALDI does not refrigerate or mist their produce. Hard to say. The taste test always works -- that and experience to know when something is "off".

[IshbelRobertson]

I've bought only organically raised meat, milk and egg for over 25 years. All purchased from a local butcher whose family members farm on the city outskirts, so I can trace meat, eggs, pies, sausage and haggis back to specific farms. Doesn't mean I never eat non organic, I will eat whatever is put cooked when visiting friends or rellies, or restaurants, without a fuss.

Fruit and veg... Not quite so fussy, although I do prefer the flavours of SOME organically grown veg, i prefer to buy local, seaonal veg and fruit. In winter that's almost impossible here as it would mean a never ending diet of root veggies and brassicas :)

[wren]

I agree with most of the comments above. We are more interested in the long-term environmental benefits of organic food than in its specific effects on our bodies. We also don't trust corporate brand name versions of 'organic' food, or any processed 'organic' convenience food.

There are local small-scale farmers who may not be officially certified as organic, but produce food by that method. It's good to get to know them. The carbon footprint of the local food is so much smaller than that of imported (from across the globe) so-called 'organic', that local uncertified seems like a good choice.

Our food mostly comes from our garden, from small producers (mostly organic) within an hour's drive of home, and the rest from a bulk foods store whose sources are harder to track. If I'm not sure about a particular food, I just don't buy it. That includes fruit from Chile. I read that pesticides which were banned in N. America are still used in S. America. I doubt that washing the fruit would help in that situation. There are also coatings on commercial fruits made with nanoparticles (to keep them from drying and shrinking in weight). Since no one knows where these nanoparticles end up once they enter our bodies, we are the guinea pigs for another high-tech experiment.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060016/

[Blackdog Lin]

An interesting discussion.

In a perfect world I of course would grow/purchase only certified organic and locally sourced foods. It HAS to be better for a body. I believe that.

But I don't live in that perfect world.
- I'm retired and have to pick-and-choose my frugal battles. Upping my grocery budget by 50% or more doesn't interest me.
- We garden, a largish one, and can/preserve all of it we can. We try to do organic, but some years the bugs/diseases are just beyond that. It's basically a weather thing. After spending all the money and time on getting the garden in, if it has to be Sevin'd, then so be it. I am not interested in spending an additional 20 hours a week (on top of the 12 hours a week it takes generally) to try to preserve it organically.
- I know of exactly one grassfed/organic beef supplier in our area, 25-30 miles away (though I think they do deliver to a centralized point in a town only 10 miles away). Prices for same are 50% higher than my "sale-ad" grocery purchasing. I have never seen ads for or heard of any poultry or pork suppliers in our area at all. No dairies either.
- We have chickens, and thus fresh eggs much of the year (not right now, the #*#!% slackers!) but feeding them an organic feed is, while technically feasible, not very simple or practical. So I can't really say we have "organic" eggs - just "happy" eggs, from happy chickens.

I can't conceive of the boring diet we'd have if I tried to go organic/locally sourced. It certainly wouldn't be simple living, it would be incredibly complicated. And I am all about the simplifying of my life these days.

I am stuck with just trying to eat more fresh produce, and less processed foods.

It seems now, after typing this out, that a lot of the thing lies in where one lives, if one truly believes in the organic hype. I do believe in much of it - I just don't live in a practical place to observe it.

[SteveinMN]

It seems now, after typing this out, that a lot of the thing lies in where one lives, if one truly believes in the organic hype. I do believe in much of it - I just don't live in a practical place to observe it.
I think you're on to something, Lin. It's very easy for us, in a large metropolitan area, to find local producers of lots of organic foods (though, of course, not everything). I live two miles from two food coöps and not much further away from several stores which offer at least a decent line of organically-produced food. I suspect that the density of people willing to buy provides a market and the number of stores offering organic food provides some competition.

I think some of the "belief" is economic, too -- we have (and are willing to spend) the extra money it costs to buy the organic goods we want (though, again, not everything). It's a priority for us. If we lived in outstate Minnesota or were on food assistance, though, it would be much harder and/or we'd have to be far more selective.

It interests me that my coöp is opening a third store in a section of town that is, let's say, not one of Minnesota's most expensive ZIP codes -- it comes with some sales challenges compared to where coöps often site here. The coöp has introduced a low-priced membership (based on income) that is totally equivalent to regular membership. There also are WIC labels applied prominently to the foods that qualify. They're aware there's at least a perceptional gap about organics and sustainably-produced food and they are trying to address it.

[Rogar]

Another aspect of organic is that it usually exempts GMOs. At least the crops that are Roundup resistant and promote indiscriminate use of herbicides. GMO labeling was on our recent election ballot and I tried to study up on it. My best read is that the health effects of GMOs are either minor or yet to be determined. But the environment effects of increased herbicide use have some documented effects, such as the elimination of milkweed from the ecological chain. Which in turn has resulted in reducing the Monarch Butterfly population that depends on the milkweed. Not to mention the pollution of runoff into waterways and the promotion of sterile soil agriculture.

[Polliwog]

Thank you all for your insightful comments. I always know that I can get the best advice, etc from this group. I like Creaker's link to Dr Weil's list of foods that you do not have to buy organic vs the ones that you should.

Linda

[seedycharacter]

There are so many reasons to buy organic if it's at all affordable. A number of those reasons are already discussed. Bees are truly imperiled and pesticides are one reason they're dying off. (See the film "More Than Honey" on Netflix) We NEED bees and butterflies to pollinate many of our crops; pesticides and GMO's are killing them at alarming rates. I have a low food budget but have always managed to buy mostly organic foods. The money I save by not buying prepared foods, junk food, or meat allows me to buy organic fruits, veggies, etc.