View Full Version : Why is it so hard to be simple? Getting over being the quirky one
I look to those who inspire- live with very little- money, clothes, small space, things in general and are so happy yet I can't seem to get there. Or maybe I am and I think something is just not firing off in my brain? I am very grateful for what I have but I keep wanting to push further for less stuff and chaos in my life yet I keep hitting a wall- personal wall at that but still.
I have easily removed as much "stuff" from my life that we could move into something half the size of our current home but I feel like am I forcing my little family to live like this? There are no complaints at this point. I guess it's my own self weirding myself out.
I love to get up, get dresses and get on with it these days. I don't mind wearing the same thing everyday. I really don't but then I get out there and I feel so self conscious about it. I wear what is appropriate for the situation but 95% of the time right now, I can be in jeans, a t shirt and flip flops. I do paint my toes. :)
Friendships- I am a natural introvert at home and I can be outgoing for work but friendships, part of it is people always comment- was your house robbed, why do you wear the same thing all the time, you can't do yoga as a living, blah blah blah- and this is across a lot of people that I know. Am I just meant to be by myself, with interaction with others as needed? How can I reconcile this?
How do y'all deal with feeling like this some days? Meditation has helped, reading stories about others living this way but it's hard when you live in suburbia and feel like the weirdo next door when no one else lives like this that I know of.
I thought going to the farmers market would help, I could meet like minded people. So I went to a meet up group and went in my t-shirt and jeans and flip flops and brought my reusable bag. All that was talked about was buying this product or wearing these particular brands of clothing/shoes or by this juicier in order to live what they were calling the simple life or else you were not- a branded simple life?. Talk about confusing. I don't want to have to buy my lifestyle. Does anyone understand this?
I really think I am going through a high time of personal growth and change and that may just be the root of it but boy, I am having a heck of a time. Thoughts. Thanks.
iris lilies
1-10-15, 2:45pm
People often comment innocently, from a place of curiosity, about "other" choices. Is that what you are experiencing, or is it really something else? I have to admit that I'd be quite skeptical about "making a living" teaching yoga assuming that "a living" is $20,000+. And, I might ask you about the reality of that.
Personally, The Farmer's Market is not a place I would go to find like minded people because that is all about being a consumer, just a rarified one. Gardening is great, but that is not gardening.
I do hang out with gardeners and few of them are as "simple" in their other, non-gardening world as DH and I are, but I don't let that bother me. They get to be who they are. But there is something socially leveling about digging around in the dirt and cultivating plants. I always felt that I could chat with Prince Charles or many of the aristocratic ladies in Great Britain if they were interested in gardening because there is a base set of skills and knowledge that we gardeners all share.
If you are truly interested in cultivating friendships, I would stay away from trying to find those who are "simple" and concentrate on finding people with who to share subject interest: hiking, biking, cooking, gardening. There are simple approaches to all of these activities, and there expensive approaches. Each hobby group will have a mix of simple folks and gear-oriented folks. So be it.
Thanks Iris Lilies- yes, innocent comments but sometimes I just feel I am being attacked. I know it's just how I perceive things but other days I get so tired of having to explain myself.
I have another job with the yoga instructor gig already. My goal is to eventually retire and do the instructor stuff on the side but people I tell seem to get into this just want to be mean about it way and say no that is not realistic. I guess what annoys me is people can't just be happy for someone without bursting their balloon and I get tired of that too. Does that make more sense? I am excited to talk about yoga and what not and maybe that's where I need to find those like minded people.
Maybe I am just tired of trying to explain myself. I will work on getting to know people who are more like minded in my areas of interest.
Teacher Terry
1-10-15, 3:13pm
I think Il is right that you should look for people with similar interests. Since yoga is a big interest I would start there. Also you could look on the MR MM site & post to see if there are others that belong to the forum that live in your local area & plan to meet. I would think that some there would be kindred souls.
ApatheticNoMore
1-10-15, 3:24pm
That seems a very odd vibe to get at the farmer's market. I'm not saying farmer's markets can't be a bit upscale, they definitely can, but many people who go to them ALSO have some environmental concern etc. (I see people I know at the farmer's market, they do etc.). In fact it seems like a very odd experience for a meetup group period, I've gone to meetup groups sometimes (unless you met up to hit the mall .. and then well what's what one epxects) because I honestly don't find that people talk about purchases all that much period. Sometimes, a few people, maybe. But really not frequent enough that I'd see it as a subject of conversation unless the purchases were what movie one had seen or vacations one had taken, people talk about that.
It is Apathetic. The town I live in used to be about 20K people, small town, country, farming-self sufficient to a point. Then the housing boom/oil boom hit this area and it became a quaint town that is now a bit upscale. Just to prove my point- you could get a nice house for under 100k here. Now, they are going up to 500k in just 7 years. We have boutique stores now that I think are abnormally high in prices. I went into one the other day- it's used clothing. I found a nice dress. She wanted $35 for it. It was a nice brand but nothing special. It's crazy.
I live in Suburbia right now while we are raising our kids. I just do my own dam thing and don't really give 2 hoots.
I have friendships with all kinds of people. I don't really seem to draw a lot of what I call 'money worshipers' to me and that's just fine.
Do you use your library? I've made friendships through the library with like minded people.
I have kids so most of my acquaintances are through their activities right now.
I think doing things is a great way to really get to know people - hiking, biking, dog park, etc.
Edit to add: I don't really talk a great deal about simplicity outside of these boards. I try to enjoy people just as they are.. and if it's something/someone that isn't necessary and it isn't working for me - I cease and desist as much as I can.
kimberlyf0
1-10-15, 6:45pm
Our farmers market has been running 20+ years now, and besides the farmers market portion there are blocks of vendors selling items and prepared foods. To me it is a very mainstream gathering place for the community.
I find it interesting that people are commenting on your number of possessions or your clothing, at least in a negative way. 95% of the time I wear a white t-shirt, jeans, and a hoodie, and no one ever says anything about the lack of variety in my wardrobe. No one has ever asked if my house was robbed, although I suppose I do have a normal amount of furniture (but not a million little side tables, etc.). People have complimented to "minimal" look (and to me it wasn't that minimal at the time) and the lack of clutter. They also often note how clean my house is, which I think has more to do with having fewer items than with the white glove treatment.
For me, embracing simplicity has been in part about letting go of what others think (or really, what I think they might be thinking). It is about pruning possessions and activities to the place where my life is aesthetically pleasing to me and filled with the activities that are importune to us as a family. We turn down invitation to do things late and night and now I don't think about what others are saying; I do it because it is right for us and I make no apologies. I serve holiday meals on the same vintage Corelle that we eat from daily, and if there are more than six people present the flatware isn't going to match, and I don't care. I'm not going to buy and store dishes for one or two meals per year, and having been given my grandmother's old incomplete flatware sets I'm not about to go buy a matching service for 12. If it really bothers someone that their fork doesn't match their spoon or the fork of the person next to them then they have problems that are far beyond my choices.
I even stopped trying to find like-minded people :) It felt unnatural to try to meet up with people based on specific interests rather than who they are as people. Of course the irony now is that we *have* found like-minded people, although not necessarily the simple living kind. But people who are vegetarian or vegan, into health and exercise, homeschool, have strong families, etc.
...I get so tired of having to explain myself.
I have another job with the yoga instructor gig already. My goal is to eventually retire and do the instructor stuff on the side but people I tell seem to get into this just want to be mean about it way and say no that is not realistic. I guess what annoys me is people can't just be happy for someone without bursting their balloon and I get tired of that too. Does that make more sense? I am excited to talk about yoga and what not and maybe that's where I need to find those like minded people.
Maybe I am just tired of trying to explain myself. I will work on getting to know people who are more like minded in my areas of interest.
People who say it can't be done need to get out of the way of people who are doing it - Chinese Proverb
Definitely need new friends who are supportive, you may need to travel out of suburbia to find them. Have you tried meetup.com?
If you are truly interested in cultivating friendships, I would stay away from trying to find those who are "simple" and concentrate on finding people with who to share subject interest: hiking, biking, cooking, gardening. There are simple approaches to all of these activities, and there expensive approaches. Each hobby group will have a mix of simple folks and gear-oriented folks. So be it.
This is good advice, irislilies.
TxZen, I think farmers' markets are the 'in' place to shop, as well as a place to find great food. Maybe you just met some superficial folks. You don't have to explain or defend your lifestyle to anyone. Just enjoy what you're doing. You've probably planted 'seeds' of simple-living ideas in the minds of the people who make those awkward remarks. You've shown them a person who is happy with much less.
Thank you for all the good advice.
I am going back to college, so looking forward to that experience and I am going to get back into going to the library.
I do run into a lot of people I know at the Farmer's Market when I get down there, and I sell honey part of the summer when I have honey coming in, and it is nice to be a part of that community.
In terms of living simply, and others' perceptions of it - I think our society is strange, perhaps, in not talking about things above board. How do you know if an acquaintance of yours is living a life of simple abundance and happiness intentionality, or if they have a gambling problem and haven't bought any clothes in a while because their wallet full of credit cards is maxed out? I like the idea of simplicity circles and meetup groups and so on, so you can get to know people who are working toward the same goals. (I admit I have never been a part of one, partly from introversion and partly because I've been busy with my family. I think I would be more social if I was a single person pursuing simplicity, and I would pursue either forming a group or finding one.)
I sometimes feel self-conscious that I have such a limited palette of clothes. I have one sweater that I wear almost every day to work. I have three button down shirts that I wear to work. Two of them are the same shade of green, and the third is dark blue. I have two lighter shirts I sometimes wear, but mostly it's those three. I have three pairs of work pants.
I mentioned to my supervisor, (whom I get along with very well), that I sometimes feel self-conscious about wearing the same thing day after day. She claims that she doesn't notice. Maybe it's a gender thing. I couldn't imagine commenting on the frequency with which someone wore something.
mtnlaurel
1-11-15, 10:01am
I woke up thinking of this thread for you, TxZen. It's various books people on this board have found inspiring & helpful:
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?11186-What-books-are-on-your-essential-voluntary-simplicity-reading-list&highlight=reading+list
These books will introduce you to a whole new world and if you really didn't know anything about This Way of approaching life be prepared for your mind to be blown.
These books will give you confidence that you are not the first person who has had the same thoughts you are having now and will provide a wide array of choices that you have at your disposal.
You are going to love pursuing this way of life. A thought out life.
One thing that I love most about this particular board is that we don't adhere to one strict philosophy - although the board is rooted in Your Money or Your Life. That's how I found this discussion board was searching the internet for things that related to that specific book.
Here in this forum you are going to see a full spectrum of simplicity living in harmony (and disharmony on occasion).
For example, china was referenced in this thread.
I have my great aunt's Lenox Autumn Harvest from the 20s and it is one of my most prized possessions. It is so beautiful to me and brings me a lot of happiness.
https://myvintagechina.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/lenox_autumn_gold_tableware_collection.jpg
Now, would I run out a buy a set of china today... I pretty much doubt it.
Shoot, I won't even buy a matching set of everyday tablewear from walmart... I have foraged a very workable set in creams and hues of blue from thrift stores now that my marriage has outlasted my registered everyday wear.
If you can live below your means, save up a 6 month emergency fund and be prepared for whatever this sh*tty economy is going to throw at you... you will sleep really well at night.
I can attest to the 6 month emergency fund - it saved my family's bacon back in '08.
We are not back yet to that level of savings, but I can't wait until we are.
Regarding the people in your life that are throwing you shade for your scaling down... they may need to be referred to the Rules of Etiquette. It's very poor form to comment on someone's clothing unless they are truly close to you and you do in fact look a mess.
I have enjoyed reading Mireille Guiliano's books for style mindset ideas (the French Women Don't Get Fat author)
http://frenchwomendontgetfat.com/content/more-iconic-fashion-colors
Most of the looks on that link could be found in consignment or thrift store.
In general, I let someone else take the hit of immediate depreciation of most items
It doesn't take a lot of money to live a beautiful life filled with meaning and interesting relationships,
but it does take Beauty in it's most classic sense which is rooted in Truth and Honesty
.... and living on the wrong side of compounded interest for what I call 'Stuff & Thangs' is NOT Beauty nor is it Truth
catherine
1-11-15, 10:54am
Can you turn around those comments and laugh at them, as if it's the asker who's "odd"? Instead of getting defensive, if someone says "Your house looks like it was robbed" can you say, "Thank you! I've worked at eliminating everything I don't need, and it has really helped me."
Or if they say, "Why do you wear the same thing every day?" "Thank you for noticing! Actually it's not the *same* thing, I like simplifying my wardrobe because it saves a lot of money and time. Plus I hate making decisions, haha."
Or if they say, "You can't teach yoga for a living" say "Depends on how you define a 'living'"
In other words, don't take it seriously. I've had people make comments about my wardrobe and I laugh. Who cares what they think? (Disclaimer: I'm at that age where I seriously don't care, and it love it, but I admit it's an attitude you have to cultivate.)
Thank you all for the lovely suggestions. I tend to be sensitive to things any who and am cultivating tactics to help me. It's been a tremendous year of change for me.
It's funny- the yoga thing seems to garner the worst reaction out of people. I don't know why.
I have given away most of my corporate clothing, saved just 3 dresses and 3 pairs of shoes (they are ballet flats and I wear them with everything) and I feel free. I went to a gathering a few weeks ago and felt chic and pulled together with just my simple wardrobe. Someone I know said I looked relaxed and refreshed, so it's a start. :)
I think with all this change for me comes a level of change for those around me. It might be they are questioning their life, I hate the "j" word but I shall use it- jealousy or perhaps they would like to try and do a few things I am doing and don't know how to ask or how to start.
I am going to just keep moving on down my path in life and leave it at that and see what life brings me.
iris lilies
1-11-15, 12:57pm
...
For example, china was referenced in this thread.
I have my great aunt's Lenox Autumn Harvest from the 20s and it is one of my most prized possessions. It is so beautiful to me and brings me a lot of happiness.
https://myvintagechina.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/lenox_autumn_gold_tableware_collection.jpg
Now, would I run out a buy a set of china today... I pretty much doubt it.
...
Hey I have that same Lenix autumn pattern it's my China pattern it's great
Teacher Terry
1-11-15, 2:14pm
Going to college is going to open up a whole new group of friends. You will all share a common goal. I didn't start until I was 31 & all the adults were really driven to do well & excited about future careers, etc. Also many didn't have much $ because college was so expensive.
i get it, i have been doing this kinda forever and i still get some comments or issues with people. even my family, they figure i just don't earn enough or that is the poor divorced mom thing so i get off the hook in having to keep up with people. Mostly they forget i am there at times and make jokes or comments about people who do not earn a lot or who do odd things that are not up to white, midwestern middle class america.
However my dad and i had a great conversation at christmas about the airstream trailers that are popular to fix up and live out of now. and at a large group training my boss actually pointed out a bug that needed to be saved and moved outside the building rather than just squishing it, no one teased me about that or my food i brought to a potluck.
I seem to be evolving into more of a "be-er" than a "do-er". I'm actually trying to go slowly and mindfully through my days, not focused on Accomplishment as much as a feeling of satisfaction and peace. I'm really tired of the endless to do list. Since I can be rather uptight and grouchy at times, there are days when remaining detached and relaxed actually takes effort, and ironically, the hardest thing to remain calm and friendly about is the eternal question, "So what are you doooo-ing?" I understand that not-doing and yet being unavailable for Doing-ness is unpopular. It's not superficially interesting, it's seen as anti-social, and I think it is viewed very similarly to acquisition: not having stuff is taken as a criticism of stuff collection, and not Doing is taken as either failure or criticism (or a grand opportunity for recruitment into busy-ness) by the very important and oh so busy.
Not really going anywhere with this, except to say that it can be difficult to chart your own course ... I think at some point we expect to find people - lots of people - who say "All Right, way to go, you did it! Now I understand your vision." Probably not gonna happen. Maybe then ... the greatest lesson we can learn from all of our unusual and personally principled choices is how to become comfortable and happy within ourselves as we craft the lives we wish to live.
Today I had coffee with a friend from a job from 3 years ago- she didn't get what I was trying to tell her about why I was doing what I was doing (and she prompted me on several things). She was rather condescending and you know what I did? I smiled through the whole thing and said "I found my happiness." And left it at that. I was my quirky self and I let if shine. She has a very overpowering personality- likes to use big words to make people feel inferior- and I just let it be. I came home and got on my yoga mat and just let all the negative energy go. See..I am learning. :)
iris lilies
1-12-15, 7:18pm
Someone on MMM said this recently (and I am paraphrasing:) The sooner you can give up your own expectation to meet the expectations of others, the closer you are to FIRE.
Same thing can be said if you substitute "Simplicity" for "FIRE."
edited to add: I suppose a simpler way to say this is when you stop caring what other people think, you can find your bliss.
rosarugosa
1-12-15, 8:13pm
Disclaimer: I do have a lot of clothes . . .
Sometimes during a really hectic day, I have realized that I actually have no idea what I am wearing without looking down to see. This helped me realize that everyone else is undoubtedly paying even less attention to what I'm wearing. Everyone is so busy worrying about her/him self; nobody is particularly engrossed in my wardrobe choices (unless I'm doing something way outside the norm).
SteveinMN
1-12-15, 10:17pm
I guess I've kind of become the quirky one and yet I've chosen to celebrate it. Some of it, I think, is in learning to "speak the language".
Most of my friends are still in the corporate world, for whatever reason they believe they need to be there. That's fine. Those jobs give them the money to buy the nice toys and such. Living simply (and retiring early) I don't want to spend the money on those things. But what I bring to these relationships is time. Living simply on not-a-lot of money lets me be the guy who can send my friends a quick note wishing them a happy birthday. Or the guy who remembers that they just got back from vacation and asks how it was. When my friends get together at the cabin each Labor Day Weekend, it's someone's cabin and someone else brings their boat and someone else brings the beer. I bring the ability to cook a mean dinner. They love it. So do I. It's how I engage in their lives now that I can no longer directly compare notes on living in Dilbertville.
Living simply also has allowed me to volunteer extensively, sometimes taking leadership positions where I volunteer. Right now I'm in the process of finding some new people for a board of directors on which I serve. It's kind of a business sort of thing. It's a way I relate to the working world to which they can relate.
When I'm actually engaging with people, listening intently and asking engaged questions, I don't think anyone sees whether there's a belt loop missing on my jeans that day. They're too busy in conversation to notice. When they're talking the frustrations of their workday, I can't offer much but history -- and some comparison to what I'm working on even though I'm not getting paid money for my effort.
For some reason, I feel this is incomplete even though it's plenty long. But maybe it serves as food for thought.
It's funny- the yoga thing seems to garner the worst reaction out of people. I don't know why.
Probably because they hate their jobs and would love to do something enjoyable like teach yoga all day. But they know they couldn't afford their fancy wardrobes and furniture if they did that so they're jealous that you might actually be able to make that dream come true.
ApatheticNoMore
1-13-15, 12:26am
Or their health insurance (those types of jobs don't always come with it, the 9 to 5 does), their rent, etc. (not to mention it will allow one to save for retirement which may or may not good compared to being a yoga teacher now and not doing so, it depends on if the world has any future :)). I still have an idea (maybe a plan but one of those someday plans) of training in massage, for extra income here and there, but that's very different than supporting yourself on it as your main gig. Oh I know exactly what it would take, about 4 months of going to 4 hours of school everyday after work. I've mostly been commuting too much for my bill paying job for it to even be possible at all.
ToomuchStuff
1-13-15, 8:17pm
Someone on MMM said this recently (and I am paraphrasing:) The sooner you can give up your own expectation to meet the expectations of others, the closer you are to FIRE.
I had to read that a few times. I read your post as, don't expect to live up to the expectations of others, and your boss will fire you. (expectations are what they have when they hire you)
Any chance of linking to the original (see if it makes better sense then the paraphrase to me)?
iris lilies
1-13-15, 8:28pm
I had to read that a few times. I read your post as, don't expect to live up to the expectations of others, and your boss will fire you. (expectations are what they have when they hire you)
Any chance of linking to the original (see if it makes better sense then the paraphrase to me)?
yeah agreed, my paraphrase isn't very well written. I re-wrote it. It basically means "stop caring what others think of your path in life, forge your own path that makes you happy."
No, can't link-- I could never find that post on the MMM site.
flowerseverywhere
1-14-15, 8:01am
Simplicity has it's own rewards. An uncluttered house looks nice and is easy to clean. An older high MPG car costs way less to insure and run. Walking or biking when you can has economic, health and psychological benefits.
For or years my siblings and coworkers would make occasional comments on how cheap I was. I rarely shop, drive older vehicles, have a sparse but functional house and wardrobe. I get enjoyment out of taking walks, cooking from scratch, quilting, reading library books and simple get togethers with friends to play cards, hike, sew and quilt, and volunteering. They were shocked when we left the wage rat race in our early fifties. It was odd to me they did not make the connection between living simply and below your means and being able to leave the workforce before the normal retirement age.
we have to do certain things to get adequate shelter, heat, food etc. but separating our wants from our needs is tricky but worth it.
Following a path to one or more goals (regardless of the advertising of all the consumer goods that pound us each day) can lead to security and a great feeling of acomplishment. Can be about spending or working or sacrificing but having a goal in mind and working towards it with a plan and determination should give great inner satisfaction. Sometimes other people just are in the way with their comments.
I loved my old cars, old collected furniture, sometimes out of date clothes often bought at the thrift store. They were not as important as working for our current and future goals. It worked and we are retired and comfortable. We lived on our retirement income for at least a decade or more.
Still made stupid consumer mistakes along the way but luckily they were smaller and we learned.
Can you turn around those comments and laugh at them, as if it's the asker who's "odd"? Instead of getting defensive, if someone says "Your house looks like it was robbed" can you say, "Thank you! I've worked at eliminating everything I don't need, and it has really helped me."
Or if they say, "Why do you wear the same thing every day?" "Thank you for noticing! Actually it's not the *same* thing, I like simplifying my wardrobe because it saves a lot of money and time. Plus I hate making decisions, haha."
Or if they say, "You can't teach yoga for a living" say "Depends on how you define a 'living'"
In other words, don't take it seriously. I've had people make comments about my wardrobe and I laugh. Who cares what they think? (Disclaimer: I'm at that age where I seriously don't care, and it love it, but I admit it's an attitude you have to cultivate.)I think these suggestions are good. People say things that, on the face of it, can seem hurtful or mean when really they just don't understand. Gently trying to enlighten them to your reasons for the things you do can better help them understand. However, and I say this as someone who retired fairly young (and probably 25 years earlier than anyone I know IRL will), it won't really stop the off handed comments. After awhile you just learn to ignore them and let them slide. I use to rail against such comments and now, for the sake of friendships and relationships, I let them go. It really doesn't matter in the bigger scheme of things if someone views my life as odd or different. It doesn't effect my life or lifestyle at all and really doesn't effect my relationship with anyone unless they are downright rude or insensitive (and I've rarely had that).
That's the funny thing- learning and teaching yoga is probably the hardest thing I have had to do in my life. It's very inside and removing the outside type of learning, so huge learning curve for me. :)
I just keep saying live by example and zip up my lip. :)
awakenedsoul
1-14-15, 12:40pm
TxZen, I can relate to how you're feeling. I taught yoga for 30 years. I think part of the judgement some people have is that they think you're going to Hell. (That's what I encountered here, anyway.) Most of them got over it, though. There's a lot of religious pressure in the community where I live. It's very controlling. I made an effort to be kind but firm, and things have worked out. They don't try to convert me anymore.
Many of my neighbors seemed shocked when I didn't replace my 2004 Kia Rio last year. My house is the only one without a car in the driveway. (The house is paid off, though!) They're gotten used to it and have been nice. I think it's made them imagine what it would be like to walk, bike, or take the bus everywhere. One guy asked me, "Are you a vegetarian? You're in really good shape." He was friendly and sincere about it. The yoga really makes your muscles cut. When you're "different", some people will be threatened by that.
I didn't think a man would be interested in me since I don't have a car. That's pretty unheard of in LA. My boyfriend now is the opposite. He always tells me, "You're so different than other girls. You're greener." He sees me hanging recycled squares of flannel sheets on the clothesline that I use as t.p. He notices that I store nuts in recycled jars instead of buying plastic baggies. I mend my clothes and darn my socks instead of buying new ones. He told me, "Other women always want MORE. You're so simple, it's such a turn on."
So, I think in time you will find people who respect and admire what you are doing. It makes you easy to please. The people that live this way are rare, but they are really special. In relationships it gives you more time and energy to enjoy love, nature, food, and each other.
yeah agreed, my paraphrase isn't very well written. I re-wrote it. It basically means "stop caring what others think of your path in life, forge your own path that makes you happy."
.Funny, I was going to compliment you on the original paraphrase, I thought so highly of it I actually wrote it down. Different strokes, of the pen as well. :)
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.