View Full Version : limits of positive thinking
i really liked this article
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/turning-straw-gold/201501/mental-contrasting-smart-alternative-positive-thinking
it made so much more sense to me, of course then i got upset because of the times i really just tried the positive thinking so much and really didn't put the rest of the work behind it. however life is not over yet and i have made some good decisions here as well. i totally knew what i was doing when i went to grad school and i did very well. i know that i have seen the limits of positive thinking but it is so seductive, a fantasy life in some cases. the big proponents of pure positive thinking that i have dealt with have a few characteristics that are frustrating to me, 1) some type of privilege that they are unaware of (like the economic opportunities of the baby boomers) 2) connections with family and friends who have similar success (everyone buys each others avon and pampered chef) 3) a discomfort with sitting down and working through the realities with another situation and another person.
there are plenty of positive people in my life who are not quite like that, those are just the frustrating ones. i would have really liked simple positive thinking to work, but for some things i had vision boards instead of business plans and that didn't work. So now i have my novel in a box for retirement, as much as that is fun it does not balance out with the stress of a low income. i am doing volunteer mediation towards a new or side career and even in that i decided to take any mediation i can get rather than sticking to ones in my comfort zone. it is not as thrilling as the fantasy of being a novelist or a meditation teacher but it feels more stable and real
early morning
2-1-15, 2:10pm
I'm not a big fan of positive thinking, at least in the incarnation I see around me. My BIL, for example, has multiple cancers, despite years of clean and healthy living and a healthy personal outlook on life. One of his friends commented to me that "he must have inner demons that bring him down - why else would he get cancer??" It's a "fault" bringing theory. If something bad happens, or you aren't successful, or you miss the green light, it is your own fault - you just didn't BELIEVE or THINK or PRAY hard enough. Bah! While visualizing - or even praying for -positive outcomes can be a good thing, it's clear that it can make one feel even WORSE when the result is not what one visualized. I did like the article, and wholeheartedly agree with her take on positive thinking - that adding a healthy dose of realism and planning will make one much more likely to have that positive outcome that was envisioned. Thanks for posting.
iris lilies
2-1-15, 2:22pm
I am a fan of realistic thinking which is a mix of positive thinking and visualizing bad consequences.
Believing in the positive thinking fairy is silly yet if you can't visualize it you can't do it.
i like to keep up on reading history and watching different things, i have a fascination with WWII. positive thinking really didn't help anyone, the war went on and damaged countries and people for generations. For every wonderful story of people going on with life there are more of ongoing damage. So i give myself an honest break, i was looking through papers and found a work review from my part time target job. i was late 24 times in a year. cringe, i was also raising my kids pretty much alone and working multiple jobs. reality, and reality had several factors. but positive thinking certainly didn't get me an awesome raise.
the author has a very balanced view of it all in my opinion, i am glad other people liked it too.
early morning
2-1-15, 2:37pm
Veering off topic somewhat - In a strange way, positive thinking may make it easier for some to deal with painful realities of their pasts. I just read a fascinating book on WWII/The Holocaust, about some who were able to escape and some who weren't, called "Paper Love: searching for the girl my grandfather left behind", by Sarah Wildman. Since you are interested in WWII, Zoe Girl, you might like it, it's very thoughtful and thought-provoking.
ApatheticNoMore
2-1-15, 2:50pm
I'm not a fan of positive thinking, because I'm a pessimist duh.
But also for reasons that are less easily articulated:
- I'm very psychoanalytic in my assumptions (not Freudian though), so that I believe what we push out of awareness does NOT go away ("the shadow side", "the return of the repressed", that sort of stuff). So we can try to push negative awarenesses out of our awareness, but it will still affect us, it will just be less conscious (more repressed), and what's so great about that? Now against this you could say that more positive thinking could become habitual (brain wiring and so on), and I certainly can see that to some degree. So hmm.
- I certainly don't agree with the social consequences of ignoring what are political problems because they are depressing. This is an absolute disaster.
- And I don't see taking positive thinking to the point in believing it makes one omnipotent is even psychologically healthy (as in the cancer example). How can that degree of distance from reality really be psychologically healthy? We have a part in much, and complete control over very little.
So many of the most pathological manifestations of positive thinking (the last two above) are what is a pretty shallow philosophy anyway (positive thinking) warped much further that it otherwise would be, by a badly dysfunctional society (the one we live in IMO :)).
As for the critique in the article, well I'm personally so unlikely to fall into that particular trap, that, I may as well worry about what might go wrong if I became a famous basketball player! :) The article is like "positive thinking can be demotivating and cause one not to take action" oh hmpf, and you think serious pessimism (which I am actually often prone to) doesn't demoralize and interfere with taking action? Because I can tell you it does, and to a great degree. Action is again reality-centeredness, it's just a grounding in that which is real (if one's actions are somewhat realistic of course). And the reality isn't even about trying to gauge if the result will be "nothing will work" or "everything's wonderful" or even something in between, the reality involved is much more simple: without action nothing is possible.
Believing in the positive thinking fairy is silly yet if you can't visualize it you can't do it.
Yes, this is how I look at it. You accept your situation or your condition and from that point, you can change your attitude and effect good things. I know because that's how I got myself out of the typing pool and became a market research professional, with no training whatsoever. In my case it was perfectly realistic thinking about what I could control within my circle of influence and that's what made the difference. It's not rainbows and unicorns--it's looking at where you are right now and cutting out negative thoughts like "well, that works for some people but it wouldn't work for me." or "If I only had this, I could have that, but I don't" or "someday my prince will come." That's not my kind of positive thinking.
Zoe Girl, as far as the novel in the box thing, that was exactly my stumbling block. I had this typing job, which I looked at with great disdain, because I believed I should be a journalist or something else similarly fulfilling. Once I got rid of the disdain and thought positively and proactively about what I could do to make my situation better where I was, all kinds of doors opened. For me the idea of being a "writer" was probably an ego thing I had to deal with.
As far as the cancer example, while I definitely believe in the power of the mind to affect bodily health, I also would never cast judgment on a cancer patient and assume that it's caused by some repressed emotion. Animals get cancer. If my dog suddenly developed a tumor, is it because she feels oppressed by how I treat her? I don't think so. So I agree that that is a very warped interpretation of what positive thinking can do, and I believe studies have proven that while optimism does help in coping with illness, it doesn't necessarily heal.
Zoe Girl, as far as the novel in the box thing, that was exactly my stumbling block. I had this typing job, which I looked at with great disdain, because I believed I should be a journalist or something else similarly fulfilling. Once I got rid of the disdain and thought positively and proactively about what I could do to make my situation better where I was, all kinds of doors opened. For me the idea of being a "writer" was probably an ego thing I had to deal with.
that is really valid, i know i am still going through the process of that with teaching and instead doing out of school time (OST) programming. i think something is somehow better about being a teacher, of course there is the writing career. A lot of begin a teacher is belonging, being validated, included, having a career path. so i am in the process of feeling successful in what i do already, and part of that has been realizing there are other people who really would love to do my job. it is fun in many ways. i am letting the current roadblocks affect my attitude. the positive is that our department is doing a salary survey where they may start to look at our years of experience and education level and our pay. the negative part is that i feel the perception of how i am doing my job is not so great, i feel grouchy at work over ongoing issues and that i can never do enough. but there is a bit of ease finally, i am working on my tracker of what i am doing at work and that helps, it is a good thing they added this year
I'm not a fan of magical thinking.
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ApatheticNoMore
2-1-15, 7:17pm
Positive thinking isn't even psychology.
Or at any rate, as far as I know (and I don't know everything), there isn't any well known branch or theory of psychology that really advocates it. Though I could see a bit of a case being made (see above speculation). Some might think that maybe CT/CBT advocate it. But I think what CT (cognitive therapy) actually aims at is to make thinking more realistic (which is positive compared to completely unhinged pessimism I suppose, it's all relative :~) ). I think life, or the parts that tend to most concern people - like interaction with people and human systems, is often times a lot of unknown and we can predict the future positively or negatively but often we just don't know.
OK, maybe this defines my perspective on positive thinking: It's about how behavior actually precedes emotion rather than the other way around--and that's exactly how I've learned to think about it.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/jun/30/self-help-positive-thinking
ApatheticNoMore
2-1-15, 11:29pm
I know because that's how I got myself out of the typing pool and became a market research professional, with no training whatsoever.
so how does this work, you ask one day to do market research because you see a position posted, and they are like "ok we have resumes coming in for people with degrees in the subject and/or decade(s) of experience, but why not?" sigh. Ok, I ask for more interesting roles at work, but I expect to probably be punished for doing so (or ignored - well that's happened before, I guess being ignored is just same 'ol, same 'ol). Whether or not I look for other jobs at other companies. ummm, I've been offered other jobs, but at companies so flaky that no they aren't what I want (a road not taken, for now).
ANM I kinda have the same question. I got my masters in education in a really bad year. The other route would have been to go directly into an alternative teaching program and start teaching but that would have been so hard on me and the kids at that time (teaching is mega hours). So after trying and failing and wandering around I started in the OST field. That is great, I am employed. Now I run into the block that my department/field does not really recognize or promote education degrees specifically, at least that is what I have been told. Most of the people started out running rec programs, all know each other, and have degrees in many subjects or none but only a couple of us have actual degrees in education. Not that education is much better, I have gone to groups and classes about finding jobs and what I heard is that education is a different world and they honestly did not feel they could help me. I am shifting to mediation and mindfulness education, but with the understanding I will probably work multiple jobs the rest of my career.
So my acceptance of reality is in large part realizing that doing all those right things, including changing attitudes, may not make a difference. Read Death of a Salesman or stories written in other eras. One of my favorite short stories ever is Tell Me a Riddle by Tillie Olsen. I just found it in cleaning my books. So I connect to the universal human story in fiction which helps (and why I want to write my stories and novels, just to write the story really). Right now I am reading about law and the research on OST programming.
ApatheticNoMore
2-2-15, 2:32am
I'm really not particularly hopeless about any career type things in the medium term - although that depends on the condition of the economy of course. More just I'm quite frustrated in the present, and easily stressed out by it. And if one is unemployed in enough recessions, the risks one is willing to take all become calculated (no jobs at risky places with red flags galore :), but being offered shows that the demand for one's skills is there). The recession of 2008 was the worst since the great depression.
I agree there may be more wisdom in literature than pop psychology :)
so how does this work, you ask one day to do market research because you see a position posted, and they are like "ok we have resumes coming in for people with degrees in the subject and/or decade(s) of experience, but why not?" sigh.
When I made the "conscious decision" to act/think positively and do what I could within my circle of influence, I was enthusiastic about my job. I did the best job I could with an attitude of service to my colleagues without being resentful of the demands placed on me. That came way before I asked about the market research position, but just after I read Stephen Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.
I used to have a college friend who was not the smartest person I knew, but my other friend used to say of her, "Other people wrap the package, but Karen always puts a bow on it." That was perfect way of saying that other people did their jobs, but Karen just did that little extra, just as a matter of course--not expecting anything, just doing it. That was who she was and that's the kind of positive action I mean. She retired early from McKinsey & Company and, while this isn't the most simple-living measurement for a good life, she now spends her retirement at one of her & her husband's three homes (Key West, Greenwich CT, and Westerley RI) She was not born of privilege--her father was a working class guy from Boston and she worked her way through college and she's one of the humblest, most genuine people I know. I know it sounds too new-agey for most here, but I swear that when you start acting "as if" the way the article I linked to said, your vibes change and people respond.
Ok, I ask for more interesting roles at work, but I expect to probably be punished for doing so (or ignored -
It's not pop psychology in my saying that what you expect, you get. That's just how life works. It's not magic, it's a little about attraction, but really more of a glass half empty/half full question. So you might be at a banquet and you can either see the banquet or you can see the long line to get there and the fact that they don't even have shrimp cocktail.
ApatheticNoMore
2-2-15, 10:04am
I think there are companies and positions where it's very easy to be ignored (I don't suppose introversion helps any, even though these are of not positions with any expectation of extroversion), whether any positions are more or less like that than the typing pool I don't know. Of course I've worked at companies that post new job entries internally first, and those that do no such thing.
When I made the "conscious decision" to act/think positively and do what I could within my circle of influence, I was enthusiastic about my job. I did the best job I could with an attitude of service to my colleagues without being resentful of the demands placed on me. That came way before I asked about the market research position, but just after I read Stephen Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.
just willing to bide one's time for as long as it takes I guess. I suppose that works if one really believes they have no other options.
She retired early from McKinsey & Company and, while this isn't the most simple-living measurement for a good life, she now spends her retirement at one of her & her husband's three homes (Key West, Greenwich CT, and Westerley RI) She was not born of privilege
she married into it >8). Ok maybe she paid for the 3 homes out of her salary (or stock options or something), I don't actually know.
I know it sounds too new-agey for most here, but I swear that when you start acting "as if" the way the article I linked to said, your vibes change and people respond.
It may make some difference to project a lot of confidence. How one does that is another matter, it's of course I imagine extremely difficult. Because I'm not confident, I tend to succeed more than I expect (just not always as much as I would like) and it tends to come as a great surprise to me whenever I do.
It's not pop psychology in my saying that what you expect, you get. That's just how life works.
I don't believe life works any such way really. I mean I just don't even believe it intellectually. But I think projecting confidence might help sometimes.
At a certain point I find zero constructive value in it at all. It's just beating oneself up. If only I could somehow project boatloads of confidence, then I would be more successful in the world eyes, in the eyes of my perfectionist upbringing, and have the jobs at work that have boatloads of status, and I could look down on others like me. Afterall any time spent in a less than ideal position, or in a position anyway lesser than what you have done before, must indicate you aren't successful enough or probably that you are a failure (never mind that less than ideal position pays all one's bills and savings and some pleasures).
I think there are companies and positions where it's very easy to be ignored
Agreed. But on your introversion point, I am introverted, too. They tried to make a saleswoman out of me and it horrified me, having been a failure at even selling Girl Scout cookies when I was little.
It may make some difference to project a lot of confidence. How one does that is another matter, it's of course I imagine extremely difficult. Because I'm not confident, I tend to succeed more than I expect …. and it tends to come as a great surprise to me whenever I do.
Yup, I hear ya there, too--especially at being surprised at my success, which is why I probably write about it on this forum too obnoxiously. That's why I believe in the "magic" of positive thinking, because I couldn't have possibly gotten where I am through just my natural talent. I am a master of "fake it til you make it."
You and I always have the same opinions but looked at from opposite perspectives, ANM. It's funny. You're Eeyore and I'm Piglet but we live in the same forest.
ApatheticNoMore
2-2-15, 10:48am
Agreed. But on your introversion point, I am introverted, too. They tried to make a saleswoman out of me and it horrified me, having been a failure at even selling Girl Scout cookies when I was little.
I tired to do (in the past) a position that involved being a liaison between the business and tech (tech where it's ok to be an introvert and a social retard - yes exactly :) ). These may have worked if people had been cooperative. The business was forever stalling, cancelling meetings I set up, and being uncooperative (they may have just been busy, I'm not saying they didn't have their reasons and excuses but ...). I wasn't assertive enough to force them to cooperate. I got blamed for deadlines being missed. No, enough of the extroversion thing for me.
I think the extent of my positive thinking is more like ... resilience, or determination. "I will find a way to go forward, and maybe this particular thing will work out and maybe it won't."
To me, the attraction theory is self fulfilling - if I look hard enough for what I want, one of two things happen: I see it, or I see something else that I realize will be a positive addition and I embrace that instead. Although I will swear that I used to have built in money radar, I'd just get a strange feeling when there was something valuable close by. I have found over $1,000 in cash and once an envelope on the street with $250,000 in checks inside. Hasn't happened in a while though, maybe the universe is telling me I have enough. :)
My opinion is that if you reduce your negative thinking and are truly believe in compassion for others and care for yourself, most of what is left is positive. The other technicalities of forcing positive thinking can get contrived.
I like Rogar's, and IL's comment:
I am a fan of realistic thinking which is a mix of positive thinking and visualizing bad consequences. Believing in the positive thinking fairy is silly yet if you can't visualize it you can't do it.
I know many believers in "The Secret" whose financial situation keeps getting worse as they "think positively" about following their well-visualized bliss, depleting their own safety net because they think that acknowledging possible failure will create it (because their visual productivity is so darn strong?) But on opposite end of spectrum I know those who have great finances, but are relatively miserable because they can't visualize doing anything but the high-pay, low-humanity job they are currently in. Catharine's got a good example of walking a middle way, I think, seeing what you want and taking the practical steps to get there, no matter the odds. I'm going to use that as my inspiration for Groundhog's Day!
Tussiemussies
2-2-15, 11:36pm
I have been studying positive thinking in a study called "Concept-Therapy" you always have a choice to choose to be pos. Or neg. Because we have reason. The positive thinking brings us closer to God, if you believe that God reprsents all-good. I have seen this for myself. I have also healed myself of many conditions, some with the aid of a mentor, the classes teach in-depth instruction for how to do it. Most of it comes from the New thought movement of the late 1800's into the 1900's. There is quite a lot of information behind positive thinking, but none as in-depth as the courses I took and the books I have read. It has helped me tremendously and I had at time used positive energy along with aromatherapy to heal my dogs. This is one of my favorite topics, and I so enjoy when I am together with like minded people and we get into deep discussions about how it is working for us at the time....
ApatheticNoMore
2-3-15, 1:11am
I think the extent of my positive thinking is more like ... resilience, or determination. "I will find a way to go forward, and maybe this particular thing will work out and maybe it won't."
i agree with that
iris lilies
2-3-15, 2:07am
My opinion is that if you reduce your negative thinking and are truly believe in compassion for others and care for yourself, most of what is left is positive. The other technicalities of forcing positive thinking can get contrived.
This is such a nice philosophy of life, I really like it! It is practical and also nicely philosophical.
Gardenarian
2-3-15, 2:34am
Great thread. Stuck in bed with black widow bite (I'll be fine) but using my phone to write.
Stuck in bed with black widow bite (I'll be fine)
Oh no. Sorry. Was that super painful? We have those around here, the only time I've actually seen one was when the boys were 3 and 4 and brought me around the corner of the house to "see the pretty spider mama".
Back to topic:
I've noticed that it is easier to be drug down than to lift someone up. I was always very positive but married someone who tends to be critical or negative. 25 years later and I find I'm more likely to say something negative first instead of looking for the positive first. I really have to fight this and it's something I've been working on and trying to be conscious of. That is part of my personal retreat every year is to only fill it with positive thinking. Really enjoying this thread and will mull over it several times.
ApatheticNoMore
2-3-15, 1:35pm
Ok having this discussion with someone and they made the distinction between thoughts, fantasies and beliefs.
Thoughts are the mind chatter all day long, thousands a day of them a day (monkey mind if you are trying to meditate but most of the time it's fine imo) and these may or may not also be strongly intertwined with a feeling component at any given time but so might the other two.
Fantasies are predictions about the unknowable future I guess. I will or will not get that parking space :laff: Or really you send in a single resume to job posting, and visualize the interview and job offer or never hearing from them again. You may be more or less suited for the position, companies may or may not being doing much hiring but meh who knows.
Beliefs are beliefs about how the world works, about what is "true".
They argued (may be making a bit of a CBT case) that only beliefs about how the world works, have the power to really hurt people and not thoughts or fantasies. Of course beliefs may also in common parlance be true, false, or unknown. Or to be a bit more semantically accurate about it, they may have more or less evidence or refutation behind them or in some cases not much may be known about them now or even to be able to be. In beliefs one can value (and I do) accuracy and not just positivitiy or negativitity.
And the point of all this, as it's all become terribly philosophical. Uh just the distinction might be of use in thinking about the subject, or not :) I don't know about fantasies but a thoughts versus beliefs distinction is interesting.
Gardenarian
2-3-15, 2:49pm
Okay, had a chance to read the article and completely agree.
As someone who also suffers from incurable, untreatable chronic illness (as does the author of the article) I have had enough of people telling me that positive thinking is all I need to be well. Like the author, I have had the experience of planning for a fun trip or outing whilst happily forgetting that pain and discomfort are always with me, viz. wherever you go, there you are.
One of the things I was mindful about in moving was to bring my illnesses and disabilities into the light, and plan to live a kind of life that would be supportive, healthful, and gentle to my body - as well as fulfilling and fun and challenging.
I also have been lucky in some areas and agree with Zoe Girl that it is easy to attribute financial, career, marital, or academic successes to "positive thinking" or other attitudes when in fact they owe a great deal to various forms of privilege or a certain kind of upbringing (something that is sure being talked about a lot these days.)
I do feel that practicing gratitude contributes to my happiness. And mindfulness - right now watching the rain trickle down our old mossy oak, and the fluttery mob of finches around my bird feeder - yes, that is good, even though my body feels all wrong. Yeah, the spider bite hurt A LOT, not immediately, but pretty soon. The worst is the stomach pain, nausea, ick - all fading now.
I am fortunate that I do not tend to depression or melancholy and that old cliche "happiness is a choice" is quite accurate for me, though I know it is not for everyone. I have learned to be at peace while in real pain though in my experience it is a skill that is only learned through bloody awful practice.
As far as visualization and that sort of thing goes (not very far...) I do believe it's essential to know what you really want and to steer in that direction. Other than that? It's not going to win you the lottery.
One thing that dismays me is that my family seems only to listen and respond to negativity. I find myself speaking sharply to them a great deal of the time simply to get their attention. Both dh and dd are dreamy, egocentric, happy-go-lucky types and will gladly live in sloth, be wasteful, thoughtless, and let all their responsibilities slide - until I bring on my Mean Librarian Voice. I have learned to disassociate the voice from the emotion and rarely actually feel anger...but their laziness and lack of courtesy degrade MY environment and quality of life, so I do need to act on it. It is a fly in the ointment.
(It's tempting to say that dd and dh are examples of the dark side of living in the moment, but they are both very content, extraordinarily creative, and successful in those things that happen to interest them. Not tidy, punctual, well-mannered, or even particularly nice, but there we are. Their general good humor and generosity are their saving graces.)
Teacher Terry
2-3-15, 5:28pm
Gardenian: sorry to hear about your physical issues but your honesty in describing your family made me laugh out loud. We are all such imperfect human beings. I am very neat & my hubby is not so sometimes it is easy for me to feel superior. He had to get a little neater to live with me & I do all the housework basically. Ugh! Good thing he has many other redeeming qualities:0!.
Ah, the Mean Librarian, with spiders. :-)
It's funny, I'm occasionally accused of being The Mean and Shouting Librarian even though I know I've used a calm and respectful voice and not asked anything unreasonable. Since I'm annoyed inside, it can be hard to be sure. I think we sometimes get accused of being The Mean One when what's really going on is the other person/people don't want to do what we feel is reasonable and it's easier to deflect with an accusation of bad communication than to have a discussion - that might lead to them actually having to do something - regarding the matter at hand. Drove me crazy with uncertainty for a long while until I - yes - actually recorded a conversation I'd practiced in my head, and heard myself being firm but polite and the other person being accusatory anyway. E.g. asking someone offhand if they could put their socks in the wash please because I'm doing laundry and being told an hour later I" always scream about the wash". Scream? No, I ask for what is necessary, which is apparently the same as throwing a fit about it, because it is a request to do work. Will not be gaslighted will not be gaslighted will not be gaslighted! Lol.
Gardenarian
2-3-15, 6:10pm
Ah, the Mean Librarian, with spiders. :-)
It's funny, I'm occasionally accused of being The Mean and Shouting Librarian even though I know I've used a calm and respectful voice and not asked anything unreasonable. Since I'm annoyed inside, it can be hard to be sure. I think we sometimes get accused of being The Mean One when what's really going on is the other person/people don't want to do what we feel is reasonable and it's easier to deflect with an accusation of bad communication than to have a discussion - that might lead to them actually having to do something - regarding the matter at hand. Drove me crazy with uncertainty for a long while until I - yes - actually recorded a conversation I'd practiced in my head, and heard myself being firm but polite and the other person being accusatory anyway. E.g. asking someone offhand if they could put their socks in the wash please because I'm doing laundry and being told an hour later I" always scream about the wash". Scream? No, I ask for what is necessary, which is apparently the same as throwing a fit about it, because it is a request to do work. Will not be gaslighted will not be gaslighted will not be gaslighted! Lol.
Sorry for getting somewhat off-topic here, but, Kib - YES! I have that exact experience.
What is bothersome is that I work really hard at being positive and in the these situations am cast as the evil slave master, when I am simply doing what any reasonable and mature person would find good and necessary. Nuts. Gaslighting, absolutely.
Okay, we now return to our Feature Program.
Sorry for getting somewhat off-topic here, but, Kib - YES! I have that exact experience.
What is bothersome is that I work really hard at being positive and in the these situations am cast as the evil slave master, when I am simply doing what any reasonable and mature person would find good and necessary. Nuts. Gaslighting, absolutely. Yes, and made worse when you are the one doing 95% of the work in the first place and even that 5% request is met with a manipulative effort to get you to do 100% without making a sound, making you feel like a second class servant in your own home. Ahem.
ok, sorry, back to the menu here.
I know many believers in "The Secret" whose financial situation keeps getting worse as they "think positively" about following their well-visualized bliss, depleting their own safety net because they think that acknowledging possible failure will create it (because their visual productivity is so darn strong?) But on opposite end of spectrum I know those who have great finances, but are relatively miserable because they can't visualize doing anything but the high-pay, low-humanity job they are currently in. !
Good point. I knew there had to be people who are doing overall badly and part of it is lack of reality check. I cringe about the mistakes I made when I was more into positive thinking without a good does of reality. I turned down a job because I was sure I got the other one, I crawled back and actually got the job I turned down which was a good job. When I look back I really wasn't qualified for the 'dream job', but I was so encouraged to 'believe'. If I hadn't faced it my family would have been devastated financially. My ex did many of those, turning down jobs when we were so poor. He did get a good job and now makes a LOT of money. It was because a friend saw how desperate we were and got him a chance in the defense industry. So there is positive and there is reality. If I was not facing reality I would still be subbing and working at retail on the weekends. I am creeping up the payscale and really like aspects of my job.
On a total side note, last night at our meditation group we had a guest teacher and he said among other things he disagrees with the secret. The reason is very in line with what I think, it can be an un-kind way to deal with difficulty in life. He has had more than his fair share, and to tell him he somehow didn't have positive thoughts at a vulnerable point would be hurtful. I saw my MIL who had cancer apologize to us and beat herself up because if she had been positive she wouldn't be sick. I have life-long depression. I have enough meditation practice and medication to manage and not take it too seriously, right now it is a daily, hour by hour, struggle. I can stop it before I get into being extra hard because I do have good health, I do have good family, I have a job that is not soul-sucking. Depression is separate from circumstances in my case, I sometimes realize it has been hours since I have been in a black hole! Most of the time I don't go more than 30 minutes without symptoms. Just how it is,
ApatheticNoMore
2-3-15, 9:14pm
I cringe about the mistakes I made when I was more into positive thinking without a good does of reality. I turned down a job because I was sure I got the other one, I crawled back and actually got the job I turned down which was a good job. When I look back I really wasn't qualified for the 'dream job', but I was so encouraged to 'believe'.
"qualified" is more often gray than black and white, but employed (or unemployed and putting out many resumes) and see an opening for the dream job: apply! Might never hear back which is not the feedback one wants from the world, but oh well, one also might hear back. Unemployed and offered *a* job I'd consider it, and if it's a job at least somewhat in one's field: I'd default to taking it period (well I might not if I had moral qualms about the job, but otherwise I probably would - I would uh make that I have).
On a total side note, last night at our meditation group we had a guest teacher and he said among other things he disagrees with the secret. The reason is very in line with what I think, it can be an un-kind way to deal with difficulty in life. He has had more than his fair share, and to tell him he somehow didn't have positive thoughts at a vulnerable point would be hurtful. I saw my MIL who had cancer apologize to us and beat herself up because if she had been positive she wouldn't be sick.
I'd tend to see such an extreme interpretation as other people being superstitious or alternatively using a defense mechanism (but defense mechanisms are human :)), a need to believe that if only they do everything right they could never possibly get cancer I guess. So I pity the pitiless (in the cancer example) as they are *scared*.
iris lilies
2-3-15, 9:27pm
Good Lord who are these people who are maligning sick individuals , people who have cancer , for failing to be "positive?"
That is insane.
I don't know anyone like that , I am simply amazed that those of you who are sick or know sick people got this reaction.
Like anything in life, A happy medium and commonsense in adopting an idea is a good thing. Berating people for lack of positivity as a cause of their illness is cra--zy big time cray-cray.
this is really bugging me the more I think about it. This is as though we are moving back to mid evil times where we have superstitious beliefs in big physical spirits that hover around us like smoke. I am bummed
I am sitting here thinking: Murphy was not an Optimist; Why the heck should I be one? What you've got to do is Hope for the Best, and Prepare for the Worst. Hope that helps you kids some. Thankk Mee.
Iris lilies - what you see and rightly complain about, is identical to what I experienced in the charismatic church in the 80s. Remove the religion, and positive thinking is no different than faith healing.
One time I asked for prayer for my asthma. I believed in divine healing at that time. Through the microphone, to the whole church, the guest speaker asked what unrepentant sin I had that was preventing my healing from asthma. I was the assistant pastors wife. I was still young, innocent, conscientious, and easily accepted blame for things that were not under my control. But that was the last straw. It was a turning point in my decade long journey out of religion.
I'm now a humanist. Agnostic if I must choose a religious label. And I hate this positive thinking "secret" crap as much as I hate religious abuse as described above.
It's indeed crazy. Primitive. Superstitious. Blame-the-victim. Middle Ages. Witch-hunt.
Need I go on??!
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